<p>This is my first post on the board. I wish I had found this wonderful forum earlier.</p>
<p>My son has been accepted into UVA and Duke. He has also been waitlisted at Harvard. </p>
<p>He has been accepted into the Echols Scholar program at UVA. For those not familiar with that program, it is one that is awarded to about 6% of the freshman class. It is really intended to make UVA more attractive to the awardees. UVA realizes that these same students will be wooed by some of the more selective/prestigious colleges. It does not confer any financial benefit but does offer certain valuable academic benefits such as priority registration for classes, being exempt from satisfying core course requirements that other freshman have to meet and better accomodation during their freshman year. There is also a prestige factor - at least at UVA - since it is awarded to a very select group of students.</p>
<p>We are working on the assumption that his final choice will be between Duke and UVA. He intends pursuing premed whether he goes to UVA or Duke. </p>
<p>Here is his/our dilemma in deciding between the two schools:</p>
<li><p>Our estimated EFC based on various calculators definitely precludes financial aid - so we did not even apply for it.</p></li>
<li><p>We told our son that we would fund his college expenses for an amount equivalent to the cost of attending a select private school ie an Ivy, Duke, etc. We estimate this to be $200,000 over four years.</p></li>
<li><p>To the extent that his undergrad education costs less than $200K, we would be willing to put the difference into his cost of attending med school down the line.</p></li>
<li><p>We would get an in-state rate for UVA. This would mean that the cost for 4 years at UVA would be approximately $70,000. It would leave about $130,000 available for his med schools costs.</p></li>
<li><p>If he attended Duke, the cost for 4 years would use up all or most of the $200K that I referred to above. This would mean that he would have to fund his med school studies most likely with loans. He could end up being in debt for almost $250,000 depending on where he went to medical school.</p></li>
<li><p>The cost estimates above do include inflation.</p></li>
<li><p>Our son realizes that going to Duke would result in a lot of debt by the time he is done with med school and is certainly sensitive to it - but in fairness to any 17 year old, it is difficult to relate to that sort of debt in terms of what repayment would entail.</p></li>
<li><p>We went to the Echols Day orientation at UVA last Monday. He felt very positive about the school and said that he was confident he would be happy there. The idea of going to a top rated school like Duke appeals to him but he is really open to either school based on what would make sense considering all of the factors. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>I am seeking your advice about what you would do if you were confronted with this situation.</p>
<p>My son had the same decision last year. I know there is a discussion thread from last year, but I am not sure how to access it.</p>
<p>(Personally, I think the Echols program would be better if it had some merit money associated with it.) I also think that if my son was in-state, the decision would have been easier. He really liked UVA. As an out of state student, the cost differential was not that significant. As an in-state student, UVA Echols seems to be a wonderful option. I think I would recommend that - and save the $$ for grad school.</p>
<p>Financially we were in the same boat as you. My son opted to go to Duke, but the decision last year was agonizing (even as an out of state student)! Good luck. I think either choice would be a good one. Remember, once the decision is made, you will never look back. :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
The idea of going to a top rated school like Duke appeals to him
[/quote]
I'd have to ask him what appeals to him about Duke ,exactly? UVA ain't exactly North Flatbush CC, and many academicians that I have been around love UVA with a passion. If it was my kid , I'd be looking for an answer to the question like -"the opportunity to do research under Dr. Whatsit in molecular anti-widget peritinopathy". If I didn't get that (or something equally specific and similar)-it would be "Go Cavs" at our house.</p>
<p>As a Virginian, sometimes, well actually beginning tonight through the weekend, the only knock I know on UVA in-state is that some students in NoVA see it as nothing more than a continuation of high school because there are so many other kids from their high school there.</p>
<p>If he's definitely set on getting an MD, then UVa would be the way to go. He will obviously get into Med school if he does well at either place and you might as well save the difference to use there. If he's not sure about med school, it may be possible that Duke may open a few more doors (but only marginally so, IMO).</p>
<p>I'm with Curmudgeon. Unless there is really some overriding reason why your S would strongly prefer Duke, I think this is a no-brainer. UVA is an excellent school, and the cost difference is huge.</p>
<p>Happy to see you among the ranks of the posters! Welcome!</p>
<p>I have visited both U VA and Duke as a tourist - even stayed at that lovely onsite hotel of Duke's. </p>
<p>For my money, I'd look at U VA very seriously. For an instater, the deal can't be beat. And even though Echols is cash free, most such designations bring with them lots of nice opportunities -- receptions where he will meet leading scholars, etc. At one state school for which my D was offered an honors program, we learned that in each "regular" class where she was enrolled, the students in the class who were in the honors program would have an asterisk next to their names, so that the prof would give them extra attention and encouragement. (That actually seemed a bit unpolitically correct to me, but it is an example of the unadvertised privileges that may come with such a designation.)</p>
<p>In our case we did end up going with the more "name" private school -- for reasons of personal fit. But we do not have med school facing us and our schools were much more in different categories than Duke and U VA.</p>
<p>I really like U VA's Jeffersonian architecture and heritage. The Charlottesville area is beautiful. </p>
<p>You did make a deal with your son and according to that deal the choice is his. But I agree that if he goes for the "high priced spread" he should incur a part of the additional cost himself (as he apparently will by having to take more loans for med school). If it were my kid and my money I'd go over the numbers and projections carefully enough that he would get the point.</p>
<p>You can't go wrong with either choice, however, and are blessed to have such fine options.</p>
<p>My daughter faced the same decision two years ago - go to Duke or go to UVa as an Echols Scholar at in-state tuition rates. </p>
<p>We had the same deal. We told her how much we could contribute to her education and how that would equal four years at Duke or four years at UVa plus graduate/law school. We attended Echols Day on the Lawn and admitted student days at Duke. She picked UVa and has had no regrets. While she is not pre-med, she is a chemistry major and takes many of the classes pre-med students take. </p>
<p>Apart from financial considerations, there are a couple of things you should consider. One is class size. In general, Duke will have smaller classes, but since your son is pre-med, that changes the comparison. The pre-med classes, chemistry, organic chemistry, biology, physics, etc. are all fairly large lecture classes at both institutions. With the priority course registration, Echols scholars can immediately find themselves in small upper level courses.</p>
<p>Be sure to carefully compare the Echols exemption from course requirements to the Duke Curriculum 2000 requirements. I understand that they are in the process of revising their requirements, but as they stand today they are numerous. </p>
<p>As a UVA alum, I can tell you that the educational bang for the buck, particularly at in-state rates, is very high. The main benefits of the Echols programs are the early registration priveleges and the core course exemption. The housing upgrade, at least during my time there, was negligible. The prestige afforded by other students is minimal, and there can even be resentment from third and fourth year students who get shut out of classes by first year Echols students who get to register before them. (Note: By tradition, UVA does not use the terms freshman, sophomore, junior and senior and traditions die hard there.) </p>
<p>There was a bit of a northern Virginia clique, as tsdad points out, but that faded pretty quickly. By the first midterm, everyone knows that they are not in high school anymore and realizes that there are new and interesting people to meet from all over. The only real benefit is that, if you are from NoVa, you will have some old friends among the new ones in the first few weeks.</p>
<p>Unless there is a clear and marked strength in a particular department or teacher at Duke, I would come down on the side of Virginia and the $130K.</p>
<p>Bank the $130k. He's going to need it. He will enjoy his time at UVA every bit as much, and if his grades are good (being in the top 6% to start), he'll have an easier time getting into med school.</p>
<p>Thanks for all your comments and input. It really has been very helpful.</p>
<p>As far as my son's attraction to Duke is concerned, I was unfair in attributing it to just a prestige factor. We are all aware that UVA is an excellent school - as is Duke. The prestige factor is relevant only so far as it relates to the comparative rankings of the two schools in the USNWR - but that is not what is influencing him. </p>
<p>The more substantive issue is the placement rate into medical schools from Duke is much higher than at UVA. Duke undergrads also have a higher acceptance rate into some of the more highly rated medical schools compared to UVA undergrads. Both Duke and UVA have excellent medical schools - though the number of places that they are able to offer undergrads from their respective schools is limited.</p>
<p>However, as I stated in my OP, he has very positive feelings about UVA after the day he spent there - and is not insensitive to the comparative cost of education at the two schools.</p>
<p>I think even the top med schools would consider UVA-Echols scholars to be in the same or better position than Duke.</p>
<p>Go to UVA and save the $$ for med school. If he ended up in a top med school with $250K in debt, it would have to influence the choice of what to do after med school.</p>
<p>"Duke undergrads also have a higher acceptance rate into some of the more highly rated medical schools compared to UVA undergrads. Both Duke and UVA have excellent medical schools - though the number of places that they are able to offer undergrads from their respective schools is limited."</p>
<p>Wholly irrelevant. If the SAME student went to Duke or UVA, she would get into med school at the same rate, except if she were a good student, likely at a higher rate at UVA because comparative GPA and etc. would be higher. What the rates show is initial selection bias, nothing else. (And the rates don't show the weed-out process either: it could well be that admission rates are higher from Duke because they've weeded out 50% of would-be perfectly capable pre-meds in the process.)</p>
<p>We visited both schools with my d. and hands down preferred UVA to Duke. While it was too big for my d's preferences and she ended up happily at an LAC, UVA came across as a great school with lots of engaged students. By comparison, we had trouble making even eye contact with the Duke students as we walked around the campus! Maybe it was exam week, but it didn't seem like they were too happy to be there! With your advantage of in-state tuition rates for UVA, this decision wouldn't even be close in our household! Go UVA and congrats!</p>
<p>Look at <a href="http://www.mdapplicants.com%5B/url%5D">www.mdapplicants.com</a>, it will tell you some of the statistics.
Some state honors program allow undergraduate more opportunity to do research, which could help with the medical school application to top school. While at elite college there are so many smart kids and there is more competition.</p>
<p>I would have a hard time picking Duke over UVA ... if they carried the same price. Knowing what $130,000 could do for graduate or medical school, this becomes a no-brainer. </p>
<p>Despite being entirely anedoctal, I have good friends at both schools. The Duke students aren't exactly enjoying their freshman experience; the UVA students are raving about their school.</p>
<p>First, my thanks to all who responded and the great input that you have offered.</p>
<p>tsdad re
[quote]
the only knock I know on UVA in-state is that some students in NoVA see it as nothing more than a continuation of high school because there are so many other kids from their high school there
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This actually is a positive from his standpoint. It helps with the transition to have others who he knows. About 200 kids - or half of the senior class - at his school usually ends up at UVA.</p>
<p>mini re
[quote]
What the rates show is initial selection bias, nothing else
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Could you explain what you mean by this? </p>
<p>Also, can you support your statement that the same kid assuming comparable performance at the two schools would end up being offered a slot at the same medical schools? Is the statement limited to a UVA vs Duke comparison or would you say the same would be true with, say, UVA vs Harvard? I had always been given to understand that how an undergrad school was perceived by medical schools - or for that matter business schools - would have a bearing on how applicants would fare in terms of where they would end up being accepted.</p>
<p>casualresponder re
[quote]
UVA came across as a great school with lots of engaged students
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I know exactly what you mean. After, our visit and our son's positive reaction subsequent to our visit to UVA earlier this week, I told him that I just had a gut feeling that he would be happy if he went to UVA. It was a feeling that was based on the general ambience at that school.</p>
<p>Susieq2007, thanks for that link. It gives some useful information even though the database is somewhat limited.</p>
<p>Take out a calculator and show your son the monthly salary (after taxes) of a medical resident, then look at costs of living like rent & food (use NYC!), and the show him the monthly payment he'd be making on $250K. Show him the bite that would be taken out of his income and then help him see what other used this money could be put towards. (Include the calculation of if he saved that much per month in an IRA, how it would grow.)</p>
<p>It is his life, and if it will be his responsibility he can make this choice.</p>