<p>Mini is right, the "rates" of post-grad study tell you more about the career aspirations of the student body as a whole (and their finanical means) than the school. Obviously, this doesn't apply if we are comparing across huge differences in academic quality (say Duke versus a community college).</p>
<p>Example: Swarthmore produces much higher rate of future PhDs than Harvard does. This doesn't mean that Swarthmore has smarter students or that Swarthmore provides a "better" education. It simply means that, on a percentage basis, more of the students at Swarthmore are inclined to go into an academic or research field where a PhD is worth something.</p>
<p>You will never see a state university at the top of any of these post-grad statistical rankings. Why? Because all kinds of students go to the university. How 'bout the kid who wants to return to Roanoke and take over the family car dealerships? Or teach English at the local Christian Day School? They don't need a PhD and probably aren't inclined to get one. Even among future doctors, attending Havard Medical School and becoming a world-famous AIDs researcher isn't on the mind of every UVA premed. Some of them just want to go back home to Winchester and join a pediatrics practice.</p>
<p>Duke happens to be a school that caters to an extremely high percentage of professional school hopefuls: Law, Med, MBA. It's just the nature of the school. So, of course, you are going to have a higher rate in those fields than at UVA, just like you have a higher rate of future NFL players at UMiami or a higher rate of PhDs at Swarthmore or a higher rate of concert pianists at Julliard -- because each of those schools is popular for students inclined in those directions.</p>
<p>UVA and Duke are so close, both academically, and overall campus culture, that in-state tuition at UVa would be a total no-brainer to me. UVa is so well-respected academically that it would not hold a top student back from any post-grad plans.</p>
<p>"Also, can you support your statement that the same kid assuming comparable performance at the two schools would end up being offered a slot at the same medical schools? Is the statement limited to a UVA vs Duke comparison or would you say the same would be true with, say, UVA vs Harvard? I had always been given to understand that how an undergrad school was perceived by medical schools - or for that matter business schools - would have a bearing on how applicants would fare in terms of where they would end up being accepted."</p>
<p>Again, the difference is largely selection bias in the initial selection. The class valedictorian who turns down Harvard for UVA may likely be first in her class at UVA. She will have MORE research opportunities than the average (brilliant) kid at Harvard. She will be coddled and mentored, come out with a set of great recommendations, where if she'd gone to Harvard, she'd most likely be middle-of-the-pack. </p>
<p>Of course, she might be outstripped by that low-income late-bloomer with 1150 SAT scores who wouldn't even have dreamed of Harvard while in high school. But putting him aside, if you were on a medical school committee, who would you prefer - MCAT scores and everything else being equal -- the middling student from Harvard, or the top prospect (and top GPA) from UVA (and all that goes with it)?</p>
<p>You made a sound financial assessment before the applications. That was smart. Now....let him choose and try not to sway--or fret over--his decision.</p>
<p>Our daughter is a recent U-Va graduate who is happily enrolled in graduate school and pursuing another career entirely after being "weeded out" of U-Va's pre-med program. </p>
<p>No regrets on either her part or on ours, but looking back it's pretty clear that, money aside, Duke is a safer bet for medical school and that an even safer bet would be a small but well-reputed liberal arts college where students are more names than numbers and "weeding out" is less of a need or practice. </p>
<p>Granted, our daughter wasn't an Echols but she entered U-Va with strong numbers and worked hard while she was there. And many of her "weeded out" fellow pre-med students were, in fact, Echols. You cannot assume that an Echols is guaranteed to finish at the top of the class at U-Va -- there are many, many, talented students at that school.</p>
<p>I don't live in VA, but everywhere I have lived, I have known outstanding students pick UVA over Duke, enough times for the schools to really be a coin toss, and this is without the Echols. I think Virginians take the school too much for granted. That said, many believe that an out of area experience for undergrad is valuable, but I'm not sure going across the line to NC is really worth the $$$. If UPenn or Columbia were the choices, I would be more hesitant because most kids do return to their home state for med school just the way med school acceptances work. My niece owes $160K from med school alone, and I assure you that she is very grateful that she has no undergrad debt. To be totally debt free would be wonderful, because she is not going get much of that paid off during internship/residency years. I would suggest UVA with a semester somewhere just to get some out of area experience, but Duke would not be one on the list for such a get away.</p>
<p>I concur with Mini. Choosing to play basketball instead instead of baseball won't make you any taller, even though basketball players are on average taller than baseball players.</p>
<p>I'd bet that the med school admission rates of UVA grads who got into Duke are equivalent to the med school admission rates of Duke grads who got into UVA.</p>
<p>I'd go with UVA, and save my money for med school.</p>
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after being "weeded out" of U-Va's pre-med program
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<p>parent2009, could you tell me more about this "weed out" process at UVA. I ask you this because, when I visited UVA I was specifically told that UVA - unlike some other schools - does not discourage anyone from applying to med school. I was told that this was the reason that their acceptance rates into med schools was around 65% compared to other selective schools which have much higher percentages. But they achieve those higher percentages by essentially discouraging/preventing some students from applying to med school thereby limiting the applicants to a higher calibre pool.</p>
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This actually is a positive from his standpoint. It helps with the transition to have others who he knows. About 200 kids - or half of the senior class - at his school usually ends up at UVA
<p>My son had a similiar decision. He could have attended the U of Florida tuition free in the honors program and pocketed the money for future use. But he had his heart set on Duke since he was 10 years old. It was his decision to make. It was a negative to attend a school with so many from his high school. He wanted to meet new people from around the world, not just mostly Florida kids. But if he didn't get into Duke I am sure he could have been happy at U of Florida. No looking back. Duke class of 2009!</p>
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It was a negative to attend a school with so many from his high school
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<p>I understand that usually what happens is that kids tend to fall-back on their high school friends but before long they do end up making new friends and widening their circle.</p>
<p>My son is leaning very much in favor of UVA over Duke - and it is a combination of the positive impression that he had when he visited UVA earlier this week as well as the huge cost differential that is influencing him.</p>
<p>I showed him the responses on this thread as well as the one the link that cheers provided yesterday evening when he came from school to help guide him in terms of his decision.</p>
<p>optimistic dad: When I said "weeding out" I didn't mean to suggest that U-Va has a formal policy in place that limits the number of students who can apply to medical school. What I meant to say was that the practical effect of U-Va's pre-med program -- very large classes with heavy reliance on TA's and little direct contact between professors and students -- is that many capable students aren't given all the support that they need to succeed academically. </p>
<p>Again, no regrets here as our daughter loved U-Va and has long gotten over the med school thing (she never even applied). My only point is that, in retrospect, I wouldn't recommend the school to a student who is absolutely intent on going to medical school. In fact, I'd strongly discourage it. William and Mary would be a far better in state choice, but an LAC would be even better. I wouldn't send a pre-med student to Duke either.</p>
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My son had a similiar decision. He could have attended the U of Florida tuition free in the honors program and pocketed the money for future use.
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<p>Not to take anything away from the Gators, but the U of Florida and UVa are not really comparable.</p>
<p>UVa is one of the best schools in the country, public or private. There is so little difference that it would almost be nuts to pay full-boat private school tuition over in-state tuition at UVa or William & Mary.</p>
<p>At the same price, Duke and UVa would be a difficult choice that could go either way for a given student. With a huge difference in cost, it's a no-brainer.</p>
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At the same price, Duke and UVa would be a difficult choice that could go either way for a given student. With a huge difference in cost, it's a no-brainer
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<p>interesteddad, your comments and that of others who have provided their input has been invaluable.</p>
<p>It is sometimes difficult to see the woods for the trees - perhaps, it is the result of living so close to this whole issue for the best part of a year.</p>
<p>My son has been waitlisted at Harvard - so he has a very long shot at being offered a slot there. Would you - and others - feel the same way regarding a choice between UVA and Harvard given the cost differential?</p>
<p>There is a big difference for a "southern boy" going up to Cambridge for undergrad and going across the border. I am sure there are worlds of difference between NC and Va, and between Duke and UVA, but not like going up to Boston to Harvard. And you can subsitute Columbia, Penn, any number of very good Northern or out of area schools for Harvard, and I would still feel the same way. It is likely that he will be coming back in state for med school opportunities so it would be a wonderful 4 years to learn to live in a whole different part of the country and enjoying top educational benefits. However between Duke and UVa, with the cost differential, he could take a gap year, or a summer away (Mini has the best ideas on what kids can do with that money to broaden their horizons). Going to Duke he is still within a few hours of home, in the South and paying full freight to do this leaving few bucks of any outside experiences particularly with the specter of med school money looming over him.</p>
<p>The chance of coming off the WL at Harvard is not very high, and would most probably entail attending without scholarship. The cost differential would be great. I would recommend going to UVA and then reconsidering Harvard for med school.</p>
<p>As I previously mentioned, the UVA Echols is a great "deal" for instate students. The reason the decision was tough for us as an out of state student was that the cost to attend UVA was still about $10/k per year cheaper. (It was not the same price.) Even though I absolutely agree that UVA is a wonderful option, it was not a "no-brainer" for the student in our house, the one who actually made the decision. He was willing to make up the differential between the two in order to attend his choice.</p>
<p>I think that it would be very interesting to poll the folks actually faced with this decision in the past (or currently) to comment, rather than getting sheer speculation from people who assume it to be a "no-brainer".</p>
<p>jamimom, he is pretty sold on the merits of UVA over Duke given the huge cost differential and the pretty much comparable education that he would get at both places. His positive view, based on the visit to the UVA campus, helped a lot.</p>
<p>Having a lot of informed posters - other than his parents - pretty much say that it was a "no-brainer" helped him through the thought process. </p>
<p>To some extent, the Harvard/UVA comparison is rather academic. If it ever came to it, we'd have to confront that choice. I was just curious how some of the contributors to this thread felt about such a choice. I thank you for your thoughts.</p>
<p>I have said it before - and I will say it again - but I so wish that I had known of this forum much earlier on in the application process. Our son, was courted by a quite a few lesser known schools around the country offering him a full ride or close to it. We did not even investigate these. I feel a bit foolish about this now.</p>
<p>He has some pretty spectacular scores in the PSAT and SATs', etc and he is a National Merit Finalist so this must be how these schools identify kids such as our son.</p>