IB vs AP vs Gifted/Honors

Pre-College Issues High School Life
141

<p>On flexibility:</p>

<p>While rigor is beneficial in any program designed for students heading to college, I don't think that it's necessarily a good thing for classes to be so packed that you can't get a good night's sleep. From what I've read in this thread, I think that if I were in the IB program, I'd feel as if I were in a straight jacket. What if I want to explore a subject, such as physics, in-depth outside of school for a semester? (school isn't everything ya know) If I were in IB, lightening my load a little that particular semester might jeopardize my diploma; in AP it doesn't matter (to the extent that other students in my school aren't taking tons of AP classes, anyway). For me - personally - flexibility (not to mention independence) is a very important factor.</p>

<p>Besides - what's so great about being <em>forced</em> to do whatever great things the IB program has you do? Sooner or later your formal education will be over and you won't have any IB, ivy, etc., diplomas hanging over your head anymore to motivate you. You'll have to motivate yourself to learn anything. If the IB program really does do all these great things for you that AP does not, but you would not have the motivation to pursue these enriching activities yourself if AP happened to be your only high school option, then I question whether IB is actually going to be worth all that much to you (over AP) ten years from now (unless, of course, you need an internationally-recognized program).</p>

<p>(I guess I'm somewhat biased by the "independence" factor. As I was telling an English teacher at school today, Chopin's The Awakening and Orwell's 1984 are very much connected in my mind by the theme of independence. I would go crazy if I were not able to set my own rules for how I'm to live, how I'm to think, etc.)</p>

142

<p>I think Time Magazine has summed this argument up pretty well in it's December issue. The cover story: "How To Build a Student For the 21st Century". The 6-page article continuously praises the IB as a curriculum that successfully develops a "global student" and teaches "a new kind of literacy".</p>

143

<p>
[quote]
-IB is free for me and all the kids in my county; the county pays for it.
-IB does offer choices of subjects just like AP. Some schools do not offer many IB classes AND AP classes. This just depends on the school.
-AP and IB are indicative of college success in the U.S.
-IB does offer choices in the 6 subject areas
-IB is internationally recognized
-IB is more established internationally and many colleges are becoming more familar with the IB program.
- AP and IB require critical/analytical thinking
-IB can begin in 9th grade as pre-IB

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Not all counties pay for IB fees. I know some counties that help to pay/reduce AP exam fees.</p>

<p>I know IB offers subjects like AP. I said AP has more subject areas.</p>

<p>AP is a U.S. standard. It's made to help students prepare for U.S. colleges. IB helps prepare on an international level. AP is U.S. specific.</p>

<p>PreIB starts in 9th grade, so what? Can you get college credit with preIB? I didn't think so.......</p>

<p>I know students how will have more credits toward college by the end of their 10th grade year, than an IB Diploma student. Students who choose the AP route can begin in 9th grade, allowing them to accumulate more credits for college than IB students.</p>

<p>The only reason anyone should choose IB is for the international aspect. Otherwise AP is the more sensible option.</p>

144

<p>While the IB program is great for liberal arts geared students, but for engineering students, AP is without a doubt stronger if you are a good student. Math/Science students aren't distinguished by classes like AP Calc BC or AP Physics C. They are distinguished by Intel/Siemens/IMO/IOI, etc etc, and their precursor competitions. There are plenty of these competitions, and especially these days, succeeding (getting good grades) means very little. Lets get it straight, we're not discussing the average students, we're discussing first class students. If you are a math/science student and you want to be first class and you have the resources, AP Calc BC, etc is the baseline where you start listing coursework. Don't fool yourself with too much "free spirited thinking." You need to solve hard integrals and get your hands around real research before you are even off the ground.</p>

145

<p>The main difference between IB and AP is that AP teaches facts and details while IB teaches you how to think. The AP classes I have taken are filled with lots and lots of reading and lots of new information to memorize. It has been a rewarding experience and I really did learn alot. However, a year after having taken AP Art History and AP Psychology, I have lost many of those details that I've memorized for the class. However, IB really forces students to think for themselves and to analyze and develop those kinds of skills rather than just piling on information. Particularly from the essay questions of AP and IB exams, you can see a clear distinction between the questions. On AP essays, you can construct a mediocre essay with lots of evidence backing your point up and it's good. For IB essays, they want an answer that has layers and does not give a simple "yes" or "no" to the question because very rarely is there a definite "yes" or "no" to any question. IB teaches students to think critically, which is much more of a useful tool for success in college. We also have to write an Extended Essay (4000 words), do oral commentaries, write up formal labs, and college will be full of these things and AP students will not be exposed to them. Thus, IB prepares you better for college. </p>

<p>As for getting college credit starting in 9th grade, that depends on the school. At my school, 9th graders aren't allowed to take AP classes, and there is no way an AP student can surpass an IB student in terms of GPA and college credit. But that is different at every school and cannot be generalized.</p>

<p>Although in America, AP is more widely recognized, IB is starting to grow in reputation as well. I wouldn't be surprised if IB surpasses AP in the near future.</p>

146

<p>nicely put <strong>lover</strong>789</p>

147

<p>True, many (perhaps all) questions are deeper than a simple "yes/no". Does that mean that you should avoid taking a stand? I don't think so. Being able to weigh both sides and decide which you think is right, and being able to defend your position convincingly for someone else, is just as important as being able to see the various layers to a question.</p>

<p>differential also makes an excellent point. I would say that for someone going into science, this is even more relevant if you don't get into Caltech/MIT/Stanford/etc. and have to go to a big state school where it's hard to get good research opportunities. Having all or most of the lower-division math courses out of the way and having a solid background in research is a real boost for students who don't want to wash glassware for two years. Science is so competitive these days and it's a good idea to get any edge you can.</p>

148

<p>"The only reason anyone should choose IB is for the international aspect. Otherwise AP is the more sensible option."</p>

<p>In no way is that a fact; it is your opinion. </p>

<p>I think Time Magazine has summed this argument up pretty well in it's December issue. The cover story: "How To Build a Student For the 21st Century". The 6-page article continuously praises the IB as a curriculum that
successfully develops a "global student" and teaches "a new kind of literacy".</p>

<p>I found the article <a href="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1568480-1,00.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1568480-1,00.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>It's very interesting.</p>

149

<p>"Students who choose the AP route can begin in 9th grade, allowing them to accumulate more credits for college than IB students."</p>

<p>At my school, you cannot begin taking AP classes in 9th grade. This does not apply to every school. </p>

<p>"AP is a U.S. standard. It's made to help students prepare for U.S. colleges. IB helps prepare on an international level. AP is U.S. specific."</p>

<p>IB helps students prepare for U.S. colleges too.</p>

<p>This argument can go on forever because if you have not experienced the IB program first hand, then I do not think you can fully understand it. This applies to AP too. It you have not taken an AP class, then you cannot fully understand AP. </p>

<p>It's basically an opinion question.</p>

150

<p>
[quote]
At my school, you cannot begin taking AP classes in 9th grade. This does not apply to every school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's too bad, but there are always ways to bend the rules. Go talk to your guidance counselor and tell him/her you're ready for AP. I don't see a reason why they would hold you back from taking a challenging course. That's just stupid.</p>

<p>AP is not just memorizing. Where are you people getting this idea from? You are taught to be analytical. Hence the reason for free response questions. In order to write you have to think .</p>

<p>With writing you have to be creative. You cannot memorize creativeness. Be sensible please.</p>

<p>Understanding of the subject + good writing = a deadly combination. Your writing is crap if you don't include facts. You can't write a bunch of nonsense and get a 5. You have to know the material; you cannot bs your way through an AP test just by memorizing.</p>

151

<p>"That's too bad, but there are always ways to bend the rules. Go talk to your guidance counselor and tell him/her you're ready for AP. I don't see a reason why they would hold you back from taking a challenging course. That's just stupid."</p>

<p>I have never said I have not taken AP classes. I was just referring to the fact that you make generalizations. Some schools in the U.S. do not let freshmen take AP classes.</p>

152

<p>Then they can take online AP classes or go to a school that will let them take AP classes freshman year. Most schools recommend that freshman don't take AP's. And not many freshman do. I know that 5 students in my county took AP tests. And all of them passed their exams. Two of them went to my school. Good schools don't hold back students from taking AP's. </p>

<p>And it's not just freshman year. Most students take AP classes starting in 10th grade. I know a couple that are taking 4 AP classes in their sophomore year. They are going to be able to attain many more credits than IB students.</p>

<p>Give me one advantage IB has over AP in the United States. No IB student has told me yet.</p>

153

<p>I feel frustrated that people who have not experienced both IB and AP are comparing the two saying one is better than the other. What you hear from others and what you can read off the internet is different than the actual experience. </p>

<p>I mentioned that IB teaches you to think. I did not mean that AP is a bunch of bs. Please don't distort my words. But have you written IB essays and have you sat for an IB exam? In the IB History of Europe exam, there is no multiple choice. It is all free response and essay. IB wants you to learn the material, yes, but also to apply it from your own perspective instead of regurgitating facts through multiple choice. From my experience IB is more challenging and demands more from the student. I have sat for both IB and AP exams and getting a perfect 7 on an IB exam is much harder than getting a 5 on an AP exam. IB expects so much more out of you. My point is, IB prepares you better for college. And yes, that does apply to U.S. Students. </p>

<p>You also forget that IB includes not only classes, but other things like the Extended Essay, Theory of Knowledge, and Creative Action Service hours. Those elements get students ready for the kind of mature coursework in college. Usually people will not just take IB classes, but the IB program. </p>

<p>"Most students take AP classes starting in 10th grade. I know a couple that are taking 4 AP classes in their sophomore year. They are going to be able to attain many more credits than IB students." Not true at my school. The IB students at my school take AP as well, so the AP students can't even compare. Can we stop discussing this? This particular point should not even be argued because it is not universal across the U.S. Different schools have different policies.</p>

<p>I talked to a Princeton representative at College Night where I live. I asked him his feelings about IB vs. AP. He said that on paper, they're supposed to be treated equally. However, he said that the people at Princeton still think that IB is better and prepares students better for college.</p>

154

<p>thank you for that great explanation!</p>

155

<p>
[quote]
I mentioned that IB teaches you to think. I did not mean that AP is a bunch of bs. Please don't distort my words. But have you written IB essays and have you sat for an IB exam? In the IB History of Europe exam, there is no multiple choice. It is all free response and essay. IB wants you to learn the material, yes, but also to apply it from your own perspective instead of regurgitating facts through multiple choice. From my experience IB is more challenging and demands more from the student. I have sat for both IB and AP exams and getting a perfect 7 on an IB exam is much harder than getting a 5 on an AP exam. IB expects so much more out of you. My point is, IB prepares you better for college. And yes, that does apply to U.S. Students.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I already said AP has writing sections. It is not all multiple choice, get it straight. Why in the world do you think teachers just try to cram facts into our heads? In my AP U.S. History class, 90% of what we work on is writing. </p>

<p>Also, colleges look at it like this: IB 7 = AP 5. If you say it is harder to get a 7 on IB than a 5 on AP, then it looks like you are at a disadvantage. AP is at an advantage in this case.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You also forget that IB includes not only classes, but other things like the Extended Essay, Theory of Knowledge, and Creative Action Service hours. Those elements get students ready for the kind of mature coursework in college. Usually people will not just take IB classes, but the IB program.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>What's your point? Colleges look at AP and IB students the same. These extra requirements won't help you in college admissions. AP gets students ready for the kind of mature coursework in college.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I talked to a Princeton representative at College Night where I live. I asked him his feelings about IB vs. AP. He said that on paper, they're supposed to be treated equally. However, he said that the people at Princeton still think that IB is better and prepares students better for college.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Who cares about Princeton anyway? Colleges don't take one over the other because they know that not all schools offer IB. I'm not sure if you knew that.</p>

<p>Ivy League schools aren't everything. The only reason people go to them is for the name. So you go to Princeton and pay for the hefty tuition, and I'll go to an in-state school for free. Have fun paying off debt.</p>

<p>You are forgetting that not every school presents AP and IB at the same difficulty. There are tons of schools out there where the AP program is much more difficult than IB programs at other schools. The best high schools in the U.S. don't have an IB program.</p>

156

<p>"AP gets students ready for the kind of mature coursework in college."</p>

<p>And IB doesn't? How can you say this when you have never taken an IB class?</p>

<p>"These extra requirements won't help you in college admissions."</p>

<p>This is not fact based. It's just your opinion. </p>

<p>"The best high schools in the U.S. don't have an IB program."</p>

<p>Again, this is your opinion. Many of the "best" high schools in the U.S. do offer the IB program.</p>

157

<p>"I already said AP has writing sections. It is not all multiple choice, get it straight. Why in the world do you think teachers just try to cram facts into our heads? In my AP U.S. History class, 90% of what we work on is writing."
AP teaches you to analyze some. But IB does it more. I'm glad that your class is working on writing, but having taken BOTH AP AND IB, I can say that IB essay questions are more sophisticated, demanding a more sophisticated answer.
You have to address both sides of the issue to prove our side and you can't just take a side. You have to take a side and explain to what extent plus some historiography at the end. AP questions are much more straightforward. </p>

<p>"Also, colleges look at it like this: IB 7 = AP 5. If you say it is harder to get a 7 on IB than a 5 on AP, then it looks like you are at a disadvantage. AP is at an advantage in this case."
That is a very shallow view on college. You seem to care only about getting into college and college admissions rather than the real content of your education. If IB exams are harder, then the students probably have to learn more and be on a higher level. Numbers and statistics are not everything. I don't think adcoms are dumb. They should realize the different requirements and difficulty levels of the two exams. ACT does not equal SAT. Some people find getting a perfect score on the ACT easier than doing so on the SAT. If this is true, then I hope adcoms won't treat a perfect ACT score the same as a perfect SAT score. </p>

<p>"What's your point? Colleges look at AP and IB students the same. These extra requirements won't help you in college admissions."
Like the previous quote, your post comes off sounding like you care more about college admissions and how you look on paper rather than how much you really are prepared for college and the kind of education you're getting. </p>

<p>"AP gets students ready for the kind of mature coursework in college."
Ok, that's very nice. Examples to back your point, please. And not just any examples. Examples that surpass the ones I'm about to give. AP students do not have to do 4000 word papers, or oral commentaries where you have to orally present a piece of literature on the spot, or formal lab hours (formal labs and usual high school labs are way different). This is college level work. I have a friend in college who said that her classmates were blown away when they have to do their first 20 page paper, but for my former-IBer friend, she said it was easy because she had practice doing her extended essay.</p>

<p>"Ivy League schools aren't everything. The only reason people go to them is for the name. So you go to Princeton and pay for the hefty tuition, and I'll go to an in-state school for free. Have fun paying off debt."
I mentioned a prestigious school for the sake of bringing up some real college people's opinion rather than us ignorant high schoolers debating back and forth. You seemed at the beginning of your post to really care about college admissions, and yet you balk at my presenting some evidence on college admissions. Ivy Leagues are not the ultimate, but they are very very prestigious colleges. They may sometimes be slightly overrated sometimes, but they didn't build up such a name for themselves out of nothing. Therefore, I respect their opinions and what they have to say. But that's not the point of this thread.</p>

<p>"You are forgetting that not every school presents AP and IB at the same difficulty. There are tons of schools out there where the AP program is much more difficult than IB programs at other schools."
And continuing on with your thought...If there are schools where the AP program is better than the IB, than there are schools where the IB program is better than AP.</p>

<p>If your school does not offer IB, then AP is very good. Colleges will know that about your school, and they just want you taking the most challenging courses offered. If your school does have IB, but you choose not to use that, then I don't know...you might get penalized...</p>

158

<p>
[quote]
AP teaches you to analyze some. But IB does it more. I'm glad that your class is working on writing, but having taken BOTH AP AND IB, I can say that IB essay questions are more sophisticated, demanding a more sophisticated answer.
You have to address both sides of the issue to prove our side and you can't just take a side. You have to take a side and explain to what extent plus some historiography at the end. AP questions are much more straightforward.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No, no, no. You have to take a side with AP essays as well. Look at the AP U.S. History exam and tell me why the free response questions are straightforward. They are not and in no way are the FRQ's or DBQ's easy and straightforward.</p>

<p>
[quote]
That is a very shallow view on college. You seem to care only about getting into college and college admissions rather than the real content of your education. If IB exams are harder, then the students probably have to learn more and be on a higher level. Numbers and statistics are not everything. I don't think adcoms are dumb. They should realize the different requirements and difficulty levels of the two exams. ACT does not equal SAT. Some people find getting a perfect score on the ACT easier than doing so on the SAT. If this is true, then I hope adcoms won't treat a perfect ACT score the same as a perfect SAT score.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Okay, this is just an opinion. Some people absolutely love writing and aren't good at memorizing details. Obviously they would want to do IB, if they want to do better in high school.</p>

<p>With AP, you have to be good at memorization and writing. It's blended perfectly. Half of any AP exam is writing and half is multiple choice. The multiple choice tests how much you remember. It's harder than writing an essay. You try memorizing 1000+ pages of history. It's not a walk in the park....believe me. And you have to analyze with the essays. Hence the reason for DBQ's in history AP's.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Ok, that's very nice. Examples to back your point, please. And not just any examples. Examples that surpass the ones I'm about to give. AP students do not have to do 4000 word papers, or oral commentaries where you have to orally present a piece of literature on the spot, or formal lab hours (formal labs and usual high school labs are way different). This is college level work. I have a friend in college who said that her classmates were blown away when they have to do their first 20 page paper, but for my former-IBer friend, she said it was easy because she had practice doing her extended essay.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>At my school, every student has to write an essay, starting in 11th grade. It is called a senior project. Then you have to present your project in front of a board of school and community representatives for judging. If you do not do a senior project, or do a crappy job on it, you do not graduate. The paper has to be a minimum of 3000 words. Most students can't fit their entire project into a 3000 word paper, and go far beyond that. It's not just my school either. All public schools in my county have senior projects as requirements. </p>

<p>I've written plenty of 1000+ word papers. It is not hard. I remember doing a project for Chemistry that had to be 1000 words. I finished it in 4 hours. </p>

<p>And for any science AP at my school, one has to do formal labs. </p>

<p>
[quote]
And continuing on with your thought...If there are schools where the AP program is better than the IB, than there are schools where the IB program is better than AP.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I said that because you said IB is harder than AP. This thread isn't even about the difficulty of each program. Why are you bringing it to that level? The OP asked which program was better, not harder. I said AP was better for U.S. students. It has more advantages in the U.S. than IB.</p>

159

<p>
[quote]
And for any science AP at my school, one has to do formal labs.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Are your formal labs typically twenty pages long?</p>

160

<p>It varies, but yes, sometimes they can be over 20 pages.</p>