<p>I thought I would start this thread based on the discussion that is going on in another thread, which was really more about forcing a child to stay in IB or maybe rather allowing a child to drop IB but turned into an IB vs. AP discussion.</p>
<p>Here are two articles to read to start the discussion.</p>
<p>As a parent, who has had a D get a full IB diploma in 2008 and a S who will graduate with a full IB diploma in 2011, I don’t think there is a clear-cut “winner” between the two. My D did not think it gave her an edge, in the college admissions process, over other classmates who went the AP route. The one thing I have noticed with both of my kids participating in IB, however, is the “bonding” that took place with their fellow IB classmates. I’m not sure this would have been the case had they not been in a smaller, more intimate group of students.</p>
<p>As a professor, I have always felt the strongest students I have encountered did IB. I can’t say why- I don’t know the curriculum- but it happens time and again, and I’m not longer surprised. I can’t say which helps for college, but I really believe it must help for overall educational development. If my kids could do IB I would be thrilled. </p>
<p>I also think AP can mean a lot of things at a highschool nowadays. Everyone wants to offer AP, everyone can take it, and its lost its value (to me it all depends on AP scores). My sense is that IB curriculums have more standardized rigor (but maybe those who know IB programs intimately can say if this is true or not).</p>
<p>One of the things that I’ve learned on CC is that there is a lot of variety on how schools do AP and IB… and some subjects have combo AP/IB classes. IB is the hardest when doing all of the diploma requirements (the standardized rigor starbright describes above), and the kids that stick with it are almost all very bright AND hard working. </p>
<p>In addition to the good general info on CC, it is important to talk to families in your own school district to understand more about the local opportunities. If they roll their eyes about “junior year IB” workload (as many did around us)… know that senior year is very hard too! IB is awesome if the right fit, but many students prefer the flexibility to only do college-level work in selected areas.</p>
<p>starbright: My D did IB, and is now a college sophomore. Her observations as a college student are similar to yours as a professor; she can spot an IB graduate in her college discussion classes. She attributes it to IB’s emphasis on critical thinking, and to the Theory of Knowledge class that IB seniors must take, which is a sort of capstone course synthesizing essential concepts of approaching knowledge. IBers are also very well trained in communicating what they learn, both in written form and oral presentation, which stands them in good stead for college and beyond.</p>
<p>jshain: I agree with you about the bonding that takes place with IBers. My D went through middle school and high school with a core group of 100 students. As challenging as the program is, that kind of support is essential. </p>
<p>One thing that I appreciated about IB was that it is an integrated program, rather than a collection of classes. Especially in MYP (middle school), D’s teachers coordinated their lesson plans thematically. For example, at one point in 6th grade, D was concurrently studying ancient Egypt in History, Cleopatra in English, and the pyramids in Science. It made for a cohesive education.</p>
<p>One of my kids completed an IB diploma program; the other refused to even apply to it.</p>
<p>Both of them made good choices. They were different choices because they are different people.</p>
<p>IB is an excellent program, but it is not for everyone.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>It is not for the kid who resents spending more time on schoolwork than his non-IB peers (including those who are taking AP courses). IB (and the pre-IB courses that many school systems require in preparation for it) is very time-consuming.</p></li>
<li><p>It is not for the kid who would like to focus his studies as narrowly as possible in a specific field of interest; IB forces breadth on students to a greater extent than the ordinary high school curriculum does. </p></li>
<li><p>In some instances, IB may not be for a kid who has a very strong commitment to an extracurricular activity – particularly one that involves a huge time commitment and/or requires enrolling in a class that takes up one period of the school day (at many schools, band, orchestra, chorus, and drama fit this description). It can be difficult – in some instances, impossible, for a student to complete a full IB diploma program and continue to participate in such an activity at the level he/she desires.</p></li>
<li><p>In some instances – and this does not apply at all IB schools – IB may not be a good choice for the student whose future career lies in the physical sciences or engineering. This depends on how the curriculum is organized and on the choices that the student has outside the IB program. (Special note for such students: Ask, IN ADVANCE, how well students in the IB program do on the Math and Chemistry or Physics SAT Subject Tests required for admission to top engineering programs; if the IB program doesn’t prepare them adequately, students may have to prepare outside of school, and some are not willing or able to do this.)</p></li>
<li><p>IB is not the best way to get the maximum number of college credits out of the way in high school. AP is. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>On the other hand:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>IB provides excellent preparation for college. IB diploma graduates have developed study skills, time management skills, and writing skills that many of their peers lack.</p></li>
<li><p>IB students usually spend most of their time with other IB students, which can be an advantage. This often means that the discipline problems that plague high schools are minimized, and that academically inclined students have opportunities to make friends with others who have similar interests and priorities.</p></li>
<li><p>IB is great for generalists and students whose interests lie in the humanities or social sciences or who will major in non-scientific applied fields such as business.</p></li>
<li><p>IB offers some academic opportunities that are not available to most U.S. high school students – including TOK and the Extended Essay. It also offers courses that, in some instances (particularly with Higher Level courses), go beyond AP in both depth and breadth, and require true college-level writing (which AP often does not). </p></li>
<li><p>IB is highly respected, and so are its graduates.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>This is a good point about IB in general, not just the sciences. It should be said that it is certainly possible to get an excellent education in the sciences at an IB school (D’s school has produced National Science Bowl winners, Science Olympiad finalists, and Siemens Scholarship winners). However, the quality of the IB education in all areas is going to depend to some extent on the school. The program is just as rigorous for the teachers and administrators as for the students; it requires special training, and time and experience to best implement it. I wouldn’t send my child to an IB program that is less that 7-10 years old at the particular school. It takes that long to work out the bugs and learn the “IB way.” Prospective parents definitely need to do their homework, not just on IB in general, but on the specific IB program at the school.</p>
<p>I just had this conversation with our district’s math department head last week vis a vis my S, a HS soph. Our district has only had IB for 2-3 years and S is very focused on the sciences (and perhaps engineering). Based on this, as well as some other points that Marian stated in her post above me, S is not going to do IB, but will focus on AP courses. The math department head agreed with this decision.</p>
<p>I wish our district had started IB years ago; it would have been an interesting option for D (who is now a college freshman).</p>
<p>I would agree with four points from other posters:</p>
<p>1) New IB programs need time to get the kinks worked out. Our son’s class will be the first at our school to receive IB diplomas/certificates. Many IB classes have only one section due to budget restraints. It makes scheduling a nightmare. (Our son had to drop IB HL Literature in order to finish IB HL Math. One section of each class and they meet at the same time. He was the only one in both.) Also, teachers have to want to learn the IB curriculum. Last year, no IB Physics or Latin because the AP/Honors teacher were retiring. This year, the new teachers are willing to teach both curriculum in the same class. The administration is learning as they go, but it will be a few years before it runs smoothly.</p>
<p>2) IB may not be the best for a physical sciences/engineering student. Since our school only offered Biology as an IB option last year, that was certainly true for us. However, this year, the IB biology, chemistry and physics classes combined for their group projects and they spanned all three disciplines.</p>
<p>3) IB diploma is next to impossible for a student with a serious EC, especially if participation in that EC requires a class, like band, choir, debate, etc. Not only is it a time management nightmare for the student, it is another scheduling challenge since those classes only have one section for preparation purposes.</p>
<p>Our son and most of the top 10% of his class have opted for a mix of IB and AP classes. Only 12 students (out of 408) will be full diploma.</p>
<p>We have this discussion at home constantly, as our school offers both. I called several college admissions offices early on and was told colleges really have no preference. The school system really pushed students to enroll in IB when S2 started high school, mostly because the school system has spent a considerable amount of money on it, I think. Few kids ever go for the full diploma because of the commitment. To get the full IB diploma, there are strict guidelines on courses, and since both my kids were juggling band and chorus classes, they both ended up taking a mix of AP and IB classes, without going for the full diploma. </p>
<p>I will add that S2 had some scheduling conflicts at the beginning of this year, and we looked at putting him in IB math to resolve the problem. The AP/IB coordinator strongly advised us to leave him in his AP math class, as she felt it was best suited to his needs and would prepare him to take AP Calculus or AP Stats next year. She’s not the first to tell us that strong math students should stick with AP. He is currently taking IB English and IB Bio, and AP U.S. History.</p>
<p>How your school implements IB can be the most critical piece of information you need. D’s school is highly supportive of the program, from the principal on down. The schedule is set so the students CAN participate in those class involved EC’s (student gov’t, band, etc). Several classes are AP/IB combo’s so the AP test will cover credit for the SL classes. D has an outside of school EC that is very time-consuming, we are working with the school to make it all work.
IB is not for every student, but then neither is AP. For D, it’s a great fit. You need to investigate how IB operates in your school, how AP operates in your school (including pass rates for all exams) and then make a decision for your student.</p>
<p>So one issue that comes up is whether or not it makes sense to go for the IB Diploma as opposed to taking a mix of AP and IB classes and not seeking the diploma. The issue raised is that the student has already been admitted to college by the time the diploma is awarded so it doesn’t add anything to their college admission chances and just eats up their time. And apparently, some parents feel that it is impossible to go for the IB diploma and have a significant involvment in ECs.</p>
<p>My problem with the former is that it assumes the only thing of value a student gets from the IB curriculum is increased chances of admission to a better college than they would have without the IB curriculum. The value of the IB diploma is the preparation for college level work load IMO.</p>
<p>As for the latter, I just haven’t seen it in DD’s IB program. They all seem to have time not only for significant ECs - varsity sports, band, volunteer work, part-time jobs - but for a normal and quite active social life, too. I haven’t seen these sleep deprived, stressed out IB kids that I see others referring to. I am not sure why DD’s experience is so different from what others have experienced.</p>
<p>Another interesting article is linked to below, though I must say, it concerns me that the “value” placed on the IB diploma here seems to be saving the state money by having to subsidize 1 fewer year of college with HOPE scholarships.</p>
<p>Some IB programs require all students to be Diploma candidates. Exceptions are only made in extraordinary cases (e.g., illness). Other IB programs allow students to take individual IB courses for the certificates.</p>
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<p>Being a full IB diploma candidate impresses colleges and contributes to students’ admissions chances in that way. The full IB program meets the criteria for “most rigorous curriculum” everywhere. There is also a thing called the “predicted IB score,” which is of tremendous importance for admission to foreign universities, but apparently not to American ones. Some IB students also may have 2 of their 6 tests completed by the time they apply for college, but I do not know whether these test scores play a significant role in the admissions process.</p>
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<p>IB actually requires ECs – they call it the CAS requirement. Problems tend to arise with students who have a preexisting commitment to a very demanding EC. The EC may not be suitable for CAS, in which case the student has to do CAS on top of the EC, which can be overwhelming. And if the EC requires missing a lot of school or spending long hours involved in it many days of the week, it may be tough to keep up with the IB workload. </p>
<p>The problem with ECs-that-involve classes is a scheduling one. My daughter, who is a serious wind instrument player, wanted to be in the school’s wind ensemble (which is a course meeting for one period during the school day) for all four years of high school because you must be in an instrumental music class to be eligible to try out for for All-State band (which she qualified for twice). At some IB schools, this would be impossible. At her school, it was not impossible but it was difficult. She had to go to summer school for two summers to take courses outside the IB program that were required for graduation and she had to make judicious choices within the IB program. If she had wanted to be in both band and another elective-that’s-sort-of-an-EC, such as chorus or journalism, it would have been impossible. </p>
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<p>That is one of its most important virtues, yes.</p>
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<p>If these are full IB diploma students, I think it would be prudent to find out what percentage of them actually get the diploma. It is possible that the relatively normal lifestyle of the students reflects a low pass rate. Alternatively, many of the students may only be seeking a few IB certificates, not the full diploma.</p>
<p>My daughter and her classmates were in an IB program that was run as a magnet, with selective admissions, drawing students from an entire county. These kids were significantly more qualified, academically, than your typical IB class. In my daughter’s year, 100% of the IB class got the IB Diploma. In that same year, one-third of them were National Merit Finalists. Nevertheless, despite these students’ high qualifications and eventual success, stress was a constant part of their lives. If the kids in your area’s IB program don’t seem stressed, I have to wonder why.</p>
<p>This is 100% true! – at least from my D’s IB school, which has been running the program for more than 20 years. D had some troubles in her freshman year, but academic readiness was definitely not one of them. She pulled straight A’s, and confirmed the conventional wisdom at her high school: “After IB, college is easy.” </p>
<p>I will second what others have said about the challenges of doing IB and a time-consuming EC. D’s EC took about 10-12 hours per week (this was in addition to CAS), and around the middle of junior year, she seriously considered dropping it due to the stress/time-management issues. She did stick with it and is glad she did, but whew-- it was a nightmare for a while there.</p>
<p>Maybe we just haven´t hit the crunch time yet…D2 is still dancing 15 hours a week, taking picture for year book, starting an online newspaper for her school, hanging out with us (we have taken few long weekend trips) and her friends. I am not seeing her working harder than last year. </p>
<p>At her school, they all go to classes from 7:45 to 2:30, whether you are in IB or not. All ECs start at 3:30. They have a brunch break at 10, and lunch at 2:30. D2 comes home for lunch, then she goes off to ballet.</p>
<p>I don´t know if it´s the case at other schools, but D2 will have same teachers next year. She likes all of teachers and they all seem she is great, so it will be pretty easy when she needs to ask for recommendation letters. It is also very likely that D2 will have same kids in her classes next year, unless they drop out of IB.</p>
<p>“If the kids in your area’s IB program don’t seem stressed, I have to wonder why.”</p>
<p>I asked DD just a few minutes ago if she felt stressed by the IB program. She said that sometimes if it works out that a bunch of assignments are due all at once or if she forgets she has something due and then has to rush it or stay up late working on it, then she feels stressed. I asked her what that meant to feel stressed. She said she has to work faster than she is used to and she worries that the quality of her work won’t be up to par. I asked her if that caused her to have any physical symptoms like a headache or upset stomach and she said no, it just caused her to worry that she wouldn’t be able to do her best and maintain her grades where she would like them to be. </p>
<p>I asked her if she felt like this often, and she said not most of the time but when a lot is due all at once she does. She said as long as she starts her homework after sports practice and can get some work done before dinner, then she can relax for a bit and finish up her work before she goes to bed and doesn’t feel stressed.</p>
<p>I asked her about her friends if any of them felt a lot of stress being in the IB program. She said most of the kids who couldn’t hack it had dropped IB at the end of junior year and those who were left in the program were pretty organized and the better students to begin with and so didn’t have to work as hard as those who dropped out. Those who stayed in the program whom she would say are stressed out are those who didn’t do their extended essay over the summer like they were supposed to and had to work on it this fall while applying to colleges and for some prepping for the SAT/ACT. She said those kids are the same ones who procrastinate and try to do things at the last minute for class, too.</p>
<p>I guess from my perspective, I don’t see anything wrong with someone feeling stressed when they forgot an assignment was due and have to work faster and stay up late. Same if several things are due at once. It is not like the kids aren’t going to experience this in college and in life - they are. I can’t tell you how many times I have had to do rush jobs in my life. It is always more pleasant to be able to take your time, but in the real world, we don’t always get that luxury.</p>
<p>The only issue I see is are these kids too young to experience that yet? Well from what I can see, they aren’t harmed by it and from how the other IB students who graduated before them do in college, I would say they benefit from it.</p>
<p>What Marian said. My S2 was at the same school. </p>
<p>S2 spent 25 hrs/week on football all four years. There were never more than two IBers on the team during S’s time. Was also captain of the debate team and was fairly involved with MUN, though did not have the time to go for a leadership role. Would have loved to have been involved in more theatre productions, but could not take the time away from school. His friends’ experience was that one could be involved with one significant EC, but the workload otherwise was too heavy.</p>
<p>I don’t remember any of S2’s IB classmates working an after school job in HS. Summers, yes. CAS hours during the school year, some folks.</p>
<p>S didn’t really have a lot of stress in his IB program (magnet program, selective entry) until fall semester of sr year when in addition to his classes, he was finishing up the extended essay, doing college aps, and in the cast of a play. Of course, he could have finished the EE over the summer and avoided a lot of the crunch. Most of the students in the program had serious ECs and almost all of them got the diploma. Some of the classes like band and chorus met before school in “period zero” to avoid scheduling problems. We were very happy with the magnet program–he had a great group of peers and it made his very large school seem a lot smaller. Also, it meant that the IB program had a well-defined group of students of a manageable size. So they were able to fulfill some of the requirements for the program (like some of the TOK hours) on field trips, etc. rather than having to fit everything into a normal school day.</p>
<p>There have been a lot of comments about IB science. S’s school offered HL Physics, Chem, and Bio. Physics was taught over two years while Chem and Bio had a double period over one year. The longer contiguous block of time it possible to do much more interesting labs than they could have done in a one period class. I have never heard of a double period AP science course.</p>
<p>There are schools that teach AP sciences, particularly AP biology, as double-period courses. It’s easier to do the labs that way.</p>
<p>One problem with IB HL sciences that doesn’t seem likely to go away is that you can only take them as a senior – or, if they are taught over a two-year period, like Physics at your son’s school --the second year must be 12th grade.</p>
<p>This poses a problem with regard to the SAT Subject Tests. The student is taking a high-level science course (maybe even two of them) but cannot take it soon enough to use it for preparation for the Subject Test, which needs to be taken early in senior year at the latest. </p>
<p>This can be a significant problem for students who must take an SAT Subject Test in a science, especially those going into engineering. AP students don’t have that problem. With judicious planning, they can usually take an AP science in 11th grade and prepare for both the AP test and the SAT Subject Test in that science simultaneously.</p>
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<p>Atacom, your daughter’s explanation of when students at her school do and don’t feel stressed is very articulate and convincing. It sounds as though the situation there is OK.</p>
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<p>My daughter and her classmates didn’t work, either. And that was before IB tightened up its CAS and EE rules. In her time, you only had to turn in an EE that was the right length – it didn’t need to receive a passing grade. So some students deliberately blew it off. That isn’t possible anymore.</p>
<p>I have no idea why, but this did not seem to be an issue at S’s school–at least I never heard anyone complain about it. Students were encouraged to take the SAT IIs in bio and chemistry at the end of their 9th or 10th grade pre-IB classes in these subjects. I don’t know what they did about physics, which wasn’t part of the pre-IB curriculum.</p>