General thoughts on law school and admissions

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>After seeing much repetition on the following topics, I thought I’d post a compilation of thoughts. Please add yours too.</p>

<li><p>Go to law school if you want to be a lawyer (or, I guess, teach). If you want to be a businessperson, get an MBA. If you want to be in politics, get an MPP (the best programs are now superior to JDs for policy preparation)</p></li>
<li><p>Law school isn’t like undergrad; there are comparatively few law schools, and you should become a successful lawyer from any of them. If you’ll only go to law school if you get into a top 14, you don’t really want to be a lawyer (you want to be rich, or something else: see #1 above).</p></li>
<li><p>Undergrad grades and LSAT scores are the key factors in law school admissions.</p></li>
<li><p>Undergrad school, program are excused by strong LSATs, which show your great liberal arts preparation.</p></li>
<li><p>There are many ways to get rich other than law for lib arts majors.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Other thoughts?</p>

2

<p>"1. Go to law school if you want to be a lawyer (or, I guess, teach). If you want to be a businessperson, get an MBA. If you want to be in politics, get an MPP (the best programs are now superior to JDs for policy preparation)"</p>

<p>Well...no. It's pretty widely accepted that if you want become a high-level politician, a JD helps more than anything. Maybe if you're talking small town city council or such, but most high level politicians have JDs from good schools and not MPPs.</p>

<p>"2. Law school isn't like undergrad; there are comparatively few law schools, and you should become a successful lawyer from any of them."</p>

<p>uhh...no. There are much more BAD law schools than good ones, and graduating from a tier 3 or tier 4 school will likely put you in a horrible position job-wise. The only exceptions I see to this are a) graduating at the very very top of the class or b) becoming a sleazy personal injury attorney and profiting off people's suffering. If these conditions are not met, a tier 3/4 grad will be looking at 50-60k the rest of his life in a toilet firm or public defense. And with many of those grads looking at 100k debts coming out of those schools, they will hardly be living the high life.</p>

<p>"3. Undergrad grades and LSAT scores are the key factors in law school admissions."</p>

<p>This is true</p>

<p>"4. Undergrad school, program are excused by strong LSATs, which show your great liberal arts preparation."</p>

<p>Also true.</p>

<p>"5. There are many ways to get rich other than law for lib arts majors."</p>

<p>Some, but not very many. Going to a GOOD law school is certainly an almost certain path to relative riches for desperate lib arts majors.</p>

3

<p>"If you want to be in politics, get an MPP (the best programs are now superior to JDs for policy preparation)" - MSUDad</p>

<p>"
Well...no. It's pretty widely accepted that if you want become a high-level politician, a JD helps more than anything. Maybe if you're talking small town city council or such, but most high level politicians have JDs from good schools and not MPPs." - MW</p>

<p>This can be resolved if we are more careful about terminology. MPPs are great preparation for careers in policy, not politics. The two are not synonyms just like software programing and running a software company are not the same. If you want to be a big-time politician, there really is no set path, but a JD is useful if you also have connections, charisma, and so on. If you want to be a policymaker (policy staff of a legislative office, policy division of an executive agency), you'd likely be better off either getting a straight MPP or a joint MPP/(degree in the field of policy in which you want to work - which, in some cases, like the DOJ policy divisions is actually a JD).</p>

4

<p>In response to the OP's post (#s as in original):</p>

<ol>
<li><p>It is VERY difficult to get a position teaching law. It is USUALLY necessary to be near the top of your class at a top 14 school, preferably a top 6 school. I disagree with the advise to get a MPP, unless you are doing a combined one with a JD. Politicians may end up spending a lot of time out of office; you need to earn a living during those years. I'd recommend a JD or an MBA for that. </p></li>
<li><p>The number of law schools has increased dramatically in the last 15 years and, unfortunately, is likely to keep increasing. There is an oversupply of attorneys. While you can be a success from any law school, the entry level positions often don't pay enough to cover student loans. My own kid ONLY borrowed the max federal student loans--no private loans at all. Bill is over $1,000 per month. (Kid has no undergrad loans.) The lower down on the totem pole a law school is, the less likely it is to have a loan forgiveness program. You really should not count on the fact that if you go to a lower tier law school you are going to be able to get a job which allows you to pay back loans straight out of law school. (I forget the limitations, but if you earn above a certain amount, you can not deduct the interest on student loans from your taxable income. The amount isn't that high.) </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Someone in my office has hired a 2007 law grad to work on a per diem basis. He doesn't get to work every day--just whenever he's needed. He recently extended his loan repayment schedule to 30 years because it is impossible for him to meet the monthly payments for a 10 or 20 year program on the amount he is earning. (As I understand it, he can't change this option when his financial circumstances change. I don't know if that's true for all loans or only his.) He is living at home with his parents right now. Of course, his life may improve dramatically once he is admitted to the bar. Someone may hire him full time then. However, he had to pay for the bar review course, etc., and that meant going another several thousand collars into debt. In New York State, at least, you are lucky if you can get admitted within 10 months of finishing law school. That assumes you pass the bar on the first try. </p>

<p>Short version: NOBODY should assume that if (s)he goes to a school outside the top 50, (s)he will be able to get a job that will allow him/her to pay back law school debt of $100,000+. The exception, of course, is someone who knows a job is waiting--usually as part of a relative's law firm. </p>

<p>Additionally, for some types of law, it doesn't make sense to go to a lower tier law school. Yes, you can be a successful lawyer from any law school. However, if you think you can get a job as an associate in the merger and acquisitions department of a major law firm doing anything other than document review coming from a law school outside the top 50 WITHOUT a "hook," I'll sell you the Brooklyn Bridge. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>Is true at most law schools.</p></li>
<li><p>Strong LSATs don't prove anything about strong liberal arts education. (My own kid broke 170 taking a practice test while still in high school.) It is true that a very high LSAT score really helps. However, there is an assumption on this board that if someone studies hard enough, (s)he can geat a 175+. It is NOT true. There ARE people who have done that--but not everyone does. Some folks just do not do well on standardized tests. a 160 LSAT--still a very good score--and a 3.7 from a top school looks better than a 160 and a 3.7 from a college which doesn't make USNews's list of best colleges in the US. If you do not test well but tend to get good grades, my advice is to go to the most selective, prestigious college you can go to without accumulating too much debt. </p></li>
<li><p>Agree with OP.</p></li>
</ol>

5

<p>
[quote]
Go to law school if you want to be a lawyer (or, I guess, teach)

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</p>

<p>Robert Rubin wrote in his autobiography that he chose law school (attended Harvard Law for 3 days before dropping out, and then later graduating from Yale Law) even though he knew at the time that he didn't want to be a lawyer for the rest of his life. He just thought it would be good training for whatever it was that he would end up doing.</p>

6

<p>From what I've been told, Wall Street banks and consulting firms, central intelligence, and think tanks all hire quite heavily among law students and promptly employ them in non-lawyer capacities.</p>

7

<p>Never mind, my fault for trying to help where I've seen others fail (lawyer/politician here)</p>

8

<p>For the sake of argument, would a JD (with a BBA undergrad) help you more than a BBA + MBA when it comes to entrepreneurial goals?</p>

9

<p>"He just thought it would be good training for whatever it was that he would end up doing."</p>

<p>If you're the next Robert Rubin -- and getting into Yale Law School is a pretty good indicator that you might be the next Robert Rubin -- then this is sensible. It's not a good bet for most kids.</p>

10

<p>
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Never mind, my fault for trying to help where I've seen others fail (lawyer/politician here)

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<p>It is an inescapable truth that a highly disproportionate percentage of the nation's top politicians have law degrees. Bill & Hillary Clinton, Obama, John Edwards, John Kerry, Rudy Giuliani, etc.</p>

11

<p>
[quote]
If you're the next Robert Rubin -- and getting into Yale Law School is a pretty good indicator that you might be the next Robert Rubin -- then this is sensible. It's not a good bet for most kids.

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<p>Well, I think that's precisely the point. If you're good enough to get into YLS, then you can consider law school to be a stepping stone to a wide range of careers. A highly disproportionate number of YLS grads do not work as lawyers.</p>

12

<p>The eight most serious Presidential contenders (Edwards, Obama, Clinton), (McCain, Thompson, Giuliani, Romney, Huckabee) include six lawyers. One is definitely not a lawyer and one confuses me.</p>

<p>Of those six, at least one of them has definitely never practiced law. The non-lawyer was a POW and was tortured for six years. Law school is unpleasant, but I don't think it compares.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
Well, I think that's precisely the point. If you're good enough to get into YLS, then you can consider law school to be a stepping stone to a wide range of careers. A highly disproportionate number of YLS grads do not work as lawyers.

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<p>To add to what I said, I find it poignantly ironic that those law grads who went to the very best law schools (i.e. YLS, HLS) are the ones who are disproportionately likely to eventually not work in the legal field, but will rather view their law degree and law career as temporary stepping stones to bigger and better things (like political success). If anything, you would think that the opposite would be true: that those who graduate from the top law schools would really really want to be lawyers. But this does not seem to be so. </p>

<p>But I suppose it's no more ironic than the fact that many of the engineering students at the very best engineering schools (i.e. MIT, Stanford) evidently don't really want to be engineers, but instead will take jobs in strategy consulting or investment banking.</p>

14

<p>The irony is definitely interesting, but the game theory is pretty straightforward. They're not there to acquire skills so much as demonstrate talent in them.</p>

15

<p>
[quote]
Well, I think that's precisely the point. If you're good enough to get into YLS, then you can consider law school to be a stepping stone to a wide range of careers. A highly disproportionate number of YLS grads do not work as lawyers.

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<p>Sure, but I'm not sure why this point is responsive to MSUDad's first comment, which is unquestionably good advice. Even among high-level national politicians (not an especially useful group to look at when making general statements about law school and career prospects), virtually all of them either practiced or taught (or both) before entering politics. This is true of every major candidate for the '08 election with a JD (and for that matter, also true of Rubin). And as jonri rightly pointed out, teaching is not an option available to more than a very small number of graduates. So yes, if your plan is to become President, a JD isn't a bad idea, but only if you are at least willing to practice for some time as well. The general advice is sound, and should be heeded by prospective students, many of whom are interested in law school because of all the doors they seem to think having a JD will open. This belief has been expressed on this board many times.</p>

<p>I'd love to hear the "many other ways" you can get rich after graduating with a liberal arts degree.</p>

16

<p>
[quote]
Sure, but I'm not sure why this point is responsive to MSUDad's first comment, which is unquestionably good advice.

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<p>I think the point is precisely responsive because it provides a more detailed response to MSUDad's point #1, specifically, what is the use of a law degree and what is the best way to get into politics. The truth is, if you want to become a successful politician, an elite law degree seems to be far more useful than an MPP. </p>

<p>Secondly, to repeat what I said, if you can indeed get into one of the elite law schools, then you can indeed reasonably view a law degree/career as a mere stepping stone to something better. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Even among high-level national politicians (not an especially useful group to look at when making general statements about law school and career prospects), virtually all of them either practiced or taught (or both) before entering politics. This is true of every major candidate for the '08 election with a JD (and for that matter, also true of Rubin).

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<p>Sure, but many of them (i.e. Rubin) didn't practice law for very long. More importantly, as he admitted in his autobiography, Rubin knew full well even during his undergrad days that he didn't really want to be a lawyer and he was just using it as a way to find a better career (and he obviously did). Similarly, our most recent 'lawyer-President', Bill Clinton, also had little intention of practicing law for the rest of his life. Ever since he was a teenager, he knew that he wanted to be a politician. The salient point is that there really are plenty of people, especially at the elite law schools, who view law as just a means to an ends rather than an ends in itself. Similarly, I know a lot of industry engineers who don't really want to work as engineers (and never did) and who are basically using their engineering careers as a way to launch themselves into top MBA programs so that they can become consultants or bankers, which is what they really want to do. For them, engineering is similarly a means to an ends. {One might ask why they didn't just go for consulting/banking right after undergrad, and the simple answer is because they didn't get an offer.}</p>

<p>
[quote]
So yes, if your plan is to become President, a JD isn't a bad idea, but only if you are at least willing to practice for some time as well. The general advice is sound, and should be heeded by prospective students, many of whom are interested in law school because of all the doors they seem to think having a JD will open. This belief has been expressed on this board many times.

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<p>I think what is fair to say is that a general law degree doesn't really open that many doors.</p>

<p>On the other hand, a law degree from the very best schools - i.e.HLS or especially YLS - does indeed open plenty of doors. Hence, if you are good enough to get into schools like that, then you reasonably can view a law career as a mere waypoint to bigger and better things. Sure, I agree, you may have to practice for awhile. But not for that long. Rubin practiced for only 2 years. Bill Clinton already tried to run for Congress only 1 year after graduating from YLS (although he lost), and was elected Governor of Arkansas only 5 years after he graduated, which effectively spelled the end of his law career. </p>

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[quote]
I'd love to hear the "many other ways" you can get rich after graduating with a liberal arts degree.

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<p>Consulting and (especially) investment banking immediately come to mind. Of course, this works only if you go to a top UG program.</p>