<p>If the hours are the same, why would anyone want to work for a smaller firm when the pay is three times less? When you say marketing, what do you mean, like do law firms typically go seek out customers? I assume you are referring to more than just advertising</p>
<p>Because there aren’t that many jobs available in the big firms and most of those jobs come with expiration dates.</p>
<p>Well I was referring to the short-term, when a law student graduates, seems like big law is the only feasible way to pay off the massive loans.</p>
<p>It’s not the only way because of PSLF, but it’s the only other way. Graduates who don’t get BigLaw/PSLF eligible jobs, if they took out loans, are basically screwed for the next 20 years. That’s why we advise people to only go to a very few select schools where employment chances make the risk worthwhile.</p>
<p>If you dont mind me asking, whats your background Demosthenes49, you seem very educated in your replies (in this thread and others) compared to most posters here?</p>
<p>I just graduated from a T14 and am studying for the bar and bored.</p>
<p>Gotcha, just finished reading the 19 page “big law horror” thread/sticky and im just scared out of my mind of getting into law tbh.</p>
<p>“I want to live in Georgia near my family (after law school) but I notice there really aren’t any t14 southeast law schools and Vanderbilt seems like the most ideal but it’s not t14?”</p>
<p>Wut? Duke and UVa seceded from the Southeast?</p>
<p>Also, a 45% employment rate doesn’t sound terribly reassuring to me.</p>
<p>If you can get in to a T14 law school and some scholarship money, why would you go to a lesser law school (unless that was completely free)?</p>
<p>Mind you, a good number of law schools make it so that only a certain percentage of scholarship recipients are able to meet their GPA limit to keep receiving scholarship money. Research that and keep that in mind.</p>
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<p>Fortunately, the T14 and a few others don’t play that game.</p>
<p>@Purpletitan I personally dont consider virginia a southeast state, at the time I completely was having a brainfart and was thinking duke was in connecticut for some reason.</p>
<p>As for the 45% employment, that was for two really bad ranked law schools, which was reassuring because I was assuming that if I would be capable of getting into a t14 law school and with some scholarship money, I would be able to obtain a full ride from them while getting into the top percentile of those schools’ graduates quite easy (compared to top percentile at a t14 school) which would get me into the 45% employed. Based on the assumption, that those 45% employed would be near the same as the top 45% of the graduating class. </p>
<p>Definitely will look into the average GPA requirement for scholarships, ty</p>
<p>Except that it’s a fallacious assumption that just because you are in the top percentiles by some admissions criteria that you’ll be in the top percentiles as a student. You have no idea how good you are as a law school student right now. And those schools will still have GPA requirements to maintain a scholarship, so you could find yourself in a situation where you lose your scholarship after one year (granted, then you could just drop out). Maybe apply to a T14 at that point (if possible; not sure about that).</p>
<p>Also, do even bad law schools give full-rides? Full-tuition is probably doable, though.</p>
<p>Like I said was just an assumption and I agree that I wouldnt know for certain but something I have learned from my education years thus far is that doing well in school is more hard-work than it is anything else. I’m quite sure if “ceteris paribus”, working hard will get you the same results. For example, if you go to a more rigorous undergraduate and get a t14 admission gpa in a challenging major, you probably would make in the top 45% of the class. I mean its not absolute but definitely a logical assumption. As for the scholarship GPA requirement, I only found information for GA State and they said they had to maintain a 3.4+ GPA to keep their full-ride scholarship.</p>
<p>Nonetheless, it’s all assumptions and merely guesses as to what to expect. My point isnt to just go to a poorly ranked law school with a scholarship and get a guaranteed job. My point is for a job that is considered by most to be the most prestige-based (prestige of your law school degree) if 45% of lowly prestiged law students are able to find jobs that require a bar exam, that’s pretty promising. I was reading in the big law horror forum thread that, 44,000 law students graduate every year and about 22,000 attorney jobs are created every year. Well just adding up the graduates from the top 50 law schools doesnt equal 22,000. That’s the reassuring thing and according to the earlier replies, my current gpa and LSAT score should get me a decent scholarship and acceptance into a lower t14 school, adding bluebayou’s information that t14 schools dont really have a gpa requirement on the scholarship, i’m thinking working my ass off should get me at least a 3.0-3.5 gpa which would put me near the middle of the class.</p>
<p>Which would probably get me an interview at a big law, and almost guaranteed job at small/medium firm. That’s the reassuring part. I mean you can argue that you may not do nearly as well in law school as your undergrad which is definitely possible but that’s true for every career, there is no “easy” type of graduate school with great employment otherwise a ton of people would be flocking there. If you screw up in any grad school, you really will have employment issues afterwards even in STEM.</p>
<p>Like I said was just an assumption and I agree that I wouldnt know for certain but something I have learned from my education years thus far is that doing well in school is more hard-work than it is anything else. I’m quite sure if “ceteris paribus”, working hard will get you the same results. For example, if you go to a more rigorous undergraduate and get a t14 admission gpa in a challenging major, you probably would make in the top 45% of the class. I mean its not absolute but definitely a logical assumption. As for the scholarship GPA requirement, I only found information for GA State and they said they had to maintain a 3.4+ GPA to keep their full-ride scholarship.</p>
<p>Nonetheless, it’s all assumptions and merely guesses as to what to expect. My point isnt to just go to a poorly ranked law school with a scholarship and get a guaranteed job. My point is for a job that is considered by most to be the most prestige-based (prestige of your law school degree) if 45% of lowly prestiged law students are able to find jobs that require a bar exam, that’s pretty promising. I was reading in the big law horror forum thread that, 44,000 law students graduate every year and about 22,000 attorney jobs are created every year. Well just adding up the graduates from the top 50 law schools doesnt equal 22,000. That’s the reassuring thing and according to the earlier replies, my current gpa and LSAT score should get me a decent scholarship and acceptance into a lower t14 school, adding bluebayou’s information that t14 schools dont really have a gpa requirement on the scholarship, i’m thinking working my ass off should get me at least a 3.0-3.5 gpa which would put me near the middle of the class.</p>
<p>Which would probably get me an interview at a big law, and almost guaranteed job at small/medium firm. That’s the reassuring part. I mean you can argue that you may not do nearly as well in law school as your undergrad which is definitely possible but that’s true for every career, there is no “easy” type of graduate school with great employment otherwise a ton of people would be flocking there. If you screw up in any grad school, you really will have employment issues afterwards even in STEM.</p>
<p>Law school is unlike undergrad in that merely working hard won’t really help you. Plenty of people don’t put that much work in (relative to their peers) and still do extremely well. Many people fill every waking hour with work and still end up below median. Law school is ravenous and can easily take up all of your time for little to no benefit. </p>
<p>Also, going to a T14 won’t “guarantee” you a job at a small/medium firm by any stretch of the imagination. I have no idea where you got that from.</p>
<p>Hmmm you could be right, I’ve talked to other people who went to law school and they said the hardest part was the sudden change to massive workload sizes compared to undergraduate. Though don’t get me wrong I’ve never been so I have no reason to accuse you of lying or them.</p>
<p>I didnt literally mean 100% guaranteed, I just meant a really good chance on paper wise. There is no guarantees in life, I’m well aware. </p>
<p>@Noteworthy:</p>
<p>Hmm, let me try again:</p>
<p>To anyone who gets a top15 (heck, top30) MBA or has a degree in CS/engineering/quantitative-something or a CPA, that 45% employment rate looks awful. Again, it’s your choice, and if you aren’t aiming for Big Law, a full scholarship somewhere may be OK (and I would go to a non-T3 T14 only with significant scholarship money, so not a crushing amount of loans), but if you just want a job, there are easier lower risk ways to get one.</p>
<p>You can be smart and work hard in law school and still get middling grades. You can be a genius in your study group and a Scalia expert and still not capture what the profs want. I want to emphasize that. No one knows how they will test first term. </p>
<p>And first term grades make a HUGE impact. They are the only grades you’ll have in pocket when employers/externships are considering you for 1l summer. A bad showing or even moderate showing first term greatly impacts second summer as well (bc those jobs are likely interviewed for in 2l fall. With only two terms of grades). By second year almost everyone has it figured out and hard work and smarts kick in for them. </p>
<p>There was a girl in my law class who was top ten first semester. Got all kinds of job opportunities etc. But she just tested well out of the gates. Ended up maybe top third of class. Didn’t matter…she’d gotten lots of meetings, offers etc. some started slower but ended the same place in class…never made up the opportunity differences. </p>
<p>@Purpletitan Well I agree with that but im not trying to say it’s reassuring compared to those fields you mentioned. If I was merely wanting to go to law school and/or work as a lawyer for the job security, I would be insane. It has terrible job outlook as whole, I was merely talking about the job outlook of poorly prestiged school graduates compared to highly prestiged school graduates. Just give an example; if the top priority of computer scientist being employed is their computer skills, if 45% of the computer scientists with poor computer skills were getting jobs, would you not feel reassured of the computer scientists with great computer skills? Well its the same thing, if the top priority of lawyers being employed is their college prestige, if 45% of lawyers with poor prestiged college backgrounds are getting employed, would you not be reassured of the lawyers with high prestiged college background?</p>
<p>@Tempemom I dont really understand your point. I’m not saying working hard is the only thing it takes to getting a 4.0 in law school and that whoever works the hardest will be #1. I’m just saying its a huge factor that determines whether you do well and you can control it a lot more than others. And like you said by the end, they all ended up at the same place. Just that your friend ended up with more benefits along the way. I mean she is an exception to the rule and the example of the rule. Your friend and her classmates that ended up the same place probably all did well, but she did a little bit better in the long run.</p>
<p>Do not go to law school unless you get into a top ten school, UNLESS, you incur little or no debt. I’m a Michigan Law grad and the legal market is brutal.</p>