<p>@TempeMom: First term grades definitely matter, but not because of your 1L summer job. No one cares about 1L summer jobs outside maybe 1L SAs, and then only because they can result in a pre-OCI offer. You’re right about them mattering for 2L SAs though.</p>
<p>@Noteworthy: Having never been to law school, I’d advise you not to tell people who have what is or is not a huge factor in determining how well you do. In a couple years you’ll understand why we’re telling you that hard work really doesn’t matter as much as you think. Basically, you’re up against your peers, so most everyone works as hard as everyone else. It’s much more about what and how you study than how much you study. </p>
<p>@Demosthenes49 I wasnt trying to say that. I was just saying that I didnt understand from her story what her relevance was because she made it seem like success in law school was more luck of capturing what the profs want and if you dont get lucky, you are screwed. That was my perspective. And as you confirmed, you have to work hard to some extent which is what I was saying.</p>
<p>No, I would not feel reassured because I looked up employment outcomes for the T14 (BTW, @SeattleTW, the outlook for the rest of the T14, outside maybe the T6+UPenn, isn’t that hot either).</p>
<p>If you have an engineering degree or graduate degree in some specialty, you will stand out from the crowd. I know of 2 lawyers w undergrad engineering degrees, who started their own firm. They are in high demand.</p>
<p>If they had undergrad poly sci degrees, instead, they’d probably be driving a cab or pouring lattes at Starbucks.</p>
<p>STEM majors who go in to intellectual property are among the few types of lawyers doing well these days. Well, and those who win class-action lawsuits.</p>
<p>Like I said in a previous post. I’m not arguing that the job outlook for being a lawyer compared to most other occupations is terrible. It really is god awful but the point of pursuing any career (in my opinion) is to be happy and not when you hit 60, wake up thinking why you wasted your life doing “insert career you hate”. My point is that if lawyer is the ideal career for you, there is enough room for you to aim for that career. Granted, from the articles you posted, i fall into “I dont know what else I want to do with my life,” that’s why i plan to try a legal internship prior to attending law school to make sure I’m at interested in it. If its miserable, i’m definitely going to turn away from law school because the job market for lawyers just sucks.</p>
<p>Trust me, if i had a passion for a STEM major or even my current major, accounting, I would sure as hell pursue those over law school haha</p>
<p>Exactly and it may or may not turn out to be my passion. I’m kinda hoping it is though so they money I took to take the LSAT isnt wasted and I’m done banging my head against a wall trying to figure out something to pursue. As for my passion may change as I age, although very true, not really going to worry about that right now. I mean even if my passion drastically changes to say business in 15 years, i’m sure 5-10 years of being a lawyer would help my chances. If my passion changes to STEM, well being a lawyer probably wont open any doors but least STEM has amazing job outlook.</p>
<p>In response to my prior post, Victory notes,"his advice may have been somewhat acceptable a decade ago, but is definitely not now. Like Demosthenes said, firms filter by school then rank. They’ll reach further into Harvard’s class than they would for UCLA or Vanderbilt. "</p>
<p>Wrong! I know of plenty of kids who met my criteria noted in my post who did eventually get legal jobs. Maybe they didn’t get it with the top name firms, but they did get offers. Again the key is strong grades, strong determination and very good interviewing skills. It may take a while,but it will eventually happen if you meet all of these criteria. </p>
<p>Admittedly, it will be MUCH easier and quicker to get a top job going to HYS or other top 10 school; however, it is definitely possible to get jobs graduating from lower tiered schools.</p>
<p>PLEASE note: It is a LOT easier said then done to meet all of the criteria that I noted above. Frankly, I would not take the risk of attending a lower tiered law school now especially if you will incur a lot of debt. </p>
<p>OP: you are understandably hesitant, but it’s also important to point out that unfortunately, there are no set answers to the questions you’ve got. Personally, I’d rather waste money taking the LSAT than enroll in law school-with that massive debt-and figure out it isn’t for you. I’d recommend you read the links purpletitan provides. They give a bracing review of the current state of legal hiring/being a lawyer.
And I’ll admit that I’m not much of a “passion” person; I’m glad I went to law school and work as a lawyer, but it’s a job that I try to do well. It’s not a religious calling, and I think it’s a mistake to be passion driven in such a potentially expensive area. Take a cold eyed look at the possibilities: for example, if you become a CPA, what are the income possibilities vs. law school? Is it worth three years of school(the opportunity cost) to pay a lot of money to get a degree which will not provide additional income over what you’d get as a CPA?
A couple of things:
I’d suggest that both Demo and taxguy are correct. Law is a prestige driven profession, and if you go to a top school, you’ve got a much better chance of getting a law job. It’s also true that others from not so highly ranked schools get jobs, but as taxguy points out, there are skills needed for that(interviewing, etc). While some of those can be practiced and learned, I’d suggest that many people, no matter how much practice, never learn to interview well.
And a word on grades. Many a soul has attended a non-T14-or even non-tier 1-school thinking s/he would ace things. Everybody attending that school thinks the same thing, but 90% of the class doesn’t make the top ten percent. Most law schools foster an extremely competitive environment, as almost all the students recognize they need to graduate with a high class rank in order to get a job.
And regarding job search: there are law grads who won’t get jobs a lawyers, no matter how hard they look, period full stop. Even with bar passage, because of lousy resume writing skills, lackluster interviewing skills, poor grades, or just attending a very low ranked school, they won’t find a job no matter how hard they look. That’s the reality, and the statistics bear it out(only half of JDs get jobs requiring bar passage).
Finally, in terms of getting an internship of some sort-I hope your school has a program you can utilize, b/c these are extremely hard to find. I work in a large public law office with over 200 attorneys; the only interns we bring are law students. Since I’ve worked here, we haven’t brought any college students into the office.
Frankly, it seems that you are at best conflicted about attending law school. I’d suggest taking a couple of years after you graduate to decide. Go into the working world and see how things are; I think that will answer a lot of questions for you.</p>
<p>@taxguy: Didn’t you used to get trounced on TLS for saying this kind of stuff? Just because going to a bad school works out for a few people doesn’t mean it’s a good investment. Lottery tickets work out for a few people too. That doesn’t make them any less a waste of money. You can’t ensure “strong grades” at any school, and all the interviewing skills in the world won’t get you past HR dropping your resume in the circular file. </p>
<p>Demonsthenes do you not read what I write? The same problem seems to occur on TLS too; however, to a much greater extent than here. I think because TLS is unregulated that it attracts idiot posters.
Let me quote a part of what I said, "Admittedly, it will be MUCH easier and quicker to get a top job going to HYS or other top 10 school; however, it is definitely possible (…not necessarily probable) to get jobs graduating from lower tiered schools.</p>
<p>PLEASE note: It is a LOT easier said then done to meet all of the criteria that I noted above. Frankly, I would not take the risk of attending a lower tiered law school now especially if you will incur a lot of debt.</p>
<p>The bar on risk assessment is a lot higher than mere possibility. Pointing out mere possibility is either trivial or disingenuous. In neither case is it worth doing.</p>
<p>to be fair to tax guy, he is correct in theory and in fact. Even the top California firms – which are highly ranked in Vault – hire from local law schools ranked below 20. But, those Big Law hires are usually Coif+LR+Other Awards from the non-T14. So, really “great” grades – not “strong” (but perhaps that is just semantics) – and interviewing skills can do the trick.</p>
<p>But, the fact is that Coif is top decile, so 90% of those from Hastings, Loyola, Santa Clara, San Deigo have really low odds – close to zero, really – of Big Law pay in a prestigious firm. So the moral of the story, is that “it is definitely possible (…not necessarily probable)”; put another way, it is highly improbable. But yes, “possible.”</p>
<p>Yes well, if someone comes in asking whether it is technically possible to have a good outcome from a bad school, I’ll be sure to send them to taxguy.</p>
<p>Demosthenes, I have personally met about a dozen people who have secured legal jobs. Yes, they weren’t all or even mostly with top ,big firms. Some were with smaller firms. Some were with the government. Those that specialized in tax, got jobs with big 4 firms. However, they did get jobs! It isn’t as impossible as you seem to believe. Yes, it is much harder than if they didn’t graduate from a top 10 law school. No Question. However, many law firms tend to hire from the better state schools. University of Miami, and University of Florida come to mind when law firms are recruiting in Florida. Maryland comes to mind in Maryland etc. </p>
<p>There are forty thousand law grads per year. You met twelve. Congratulations. How you can claim the name “taxguy” and not understand the meaning of “representative sample” is beyond me. No one ever said it was impossible to get a decent job from a non-top school, just that it was risky and stupid, and gets riskier and stupider as you head down the rankings. Implying otherwise is disingenuous.</p>
<p>Oh, how many people do you know who haven’t gotten jobs within one year of graduation? I am not going to argue with you over semantics since I did recommend generally not going to a lower tier school as you did. I just wasn’t as dogmatic or emphatic as you were because I think there are situations that might warrant it. For example, having a strong connection for a job would be an exception. Moreover, I can honestly say that EVERYONE that I know who specialized in tax and wanted tax jobs eventually got one. In fact, I just met some tax partners in a big 4 firm who noted that they are begging for qualified people. Yes, I can’t speak for other specialties since I don’t enough about them. Thus, there are exceptions where going to a lower tier law school would be acceptable. Absent these exceptions, however, I will say again that I advise against going to a lower tier law school. Is there anything unclear or disingenuous about this statement? However, I still believe that someone who scores well in grades, interviews very well will get a job from almost any law school. Yes, I don’t have statistics to back this up other than what my 45 years of experience has shown me despite the economic conditions over the past 6 years. From what I am hearing from our local chamber of commerce, I am not the only employer who feels this way either. </p>
<p>Did you really just ask me how many people I know who haven’t gotten jobs? As if my circle of acquaintances would somehow count when yours didn’t? It’s not that I’m disdainful of your particular group, it’s that it’s bad statistics to generalize from an anecdotal set of people. </p>
<p>As for how many people who haven’t gotten a job, that would be half of them, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. There’s 40k law grads. There’s 20k law jobs of any flavor. The math isn’t hard. And that’s law jobs of any description, including the doc review circuit. I don’t know many who would consider that a real law job despite its requiring a JD.</p>
<p>Regarding tax, the job outlook isn’t nearly as rosy as you portray. Unfortunately I can’t find any statistics based on those who are looking for tax practice. Nevertheless some inference can be made. I know that the employment prospects out of the top Tax LLMs aren’t much better than half the class. I also know that the general job market is depressed. It would be truly bizarre if tax operated in its own special sphere where it was unaffected by the general decline in demand and oversupply of lawyers. </p>
<p>“I still believe that someone who scores well in grades, interviews very well will get a job from almost any law school.” This is the disingenuous part. You say you advise against this plan, then turn around and say “but you can do it!” No mention is made of risk assessment, opportunity costs, or even direct costs. </p>