If you dont go to a top-tier law school, is it pointless?

<p>Lower-tier law schools are still okay if you’re looking to work locally, to work in popular areas like NY, Chicago and California, you’d best be looking at a top-10 school. </p>

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<p>That’s if your idea of “work” is as a barista. Paid legal jobs for lower tier schools just aren’t that plentiful. Heck, paid legal jobs from the T14 aren’t that plentiful. As Demo notes upthread, the U.S. is graduating 2x the number of law grads needed. In other words, ~50% of all law grads will have great difficulty finding any job requiring a JD.</p>

<p>172 is a great LSAT score and I think you could get into any number of schools. Particularly now that law school is kind of out of fashion.</p>

<p>But don’t discount GA. It’s a solid school that feeds into a solid legal market if you want to stay local. And in-state tuition is going to cost you about half of what a T14 would cost you (unless you get financial aid, which could happen if you have the right background).</p>

<p>As a practicing lawyer, I have to warn you against debt. These days, leveraging $200K in debt hoping to get $165k/yr right out of school is not a good bet. </p>

<p>If it were me, I’d apply to a couple of good privates. I think you’d be competitive somewhere like Duke, Cornell, Georgetown, Vandy, etc. and see if they offer a good financial aid package. If not, I’d go to GA, work my butt off to graduate top 10 and law review. Maybe do a federal clerkship. I might not end up working at a sweatshop in NYC, but I’d have plenty of options in Atlanta and, worst case, the world always needs prosecutors and public defenders.</p>

<p>Law can still be a great career if you don’t get trapped by debt.</p>

<p>“and, worse case, the world always needs prosecutors and public defenders”

  1. There is a lot of competition for those jobs too.
  2. If you look at those jobs as “worse case” you shouldn’t and probably won’t get the job. When D was interning at a public defenders office, there was a recent graduate of a T14 school VOLUNTEERING for a year just to try to get hired. She had never done anything to demonstrate she was interested in being a public defender, so she was attempting to prove interest by working for free.</p>

<p>Major LOL at thinking you can just walk into a PD/DA. Those jobs require clear proof of commitment, relevant work experience, great schools/grades, and pure luck because you just have to hope their budget allows hiring when you’re looking.</p>

<p>Totally out of touch with the realities of the legal marketplace. Nobody rolls out of bed and just gets a PD/DA job. As pointed out, those are very difficult positions to obtain.</p>

<p>Demosthenes notes,"Regarding tax, the job outlook isn’t nearly as rosy as you portray. Unfortunately I can’t find any statistics based on those who are looking for tax practice. Nevertheless some inference can be made. I know that the employment prospects out of the top Tax LLMs aren’t much better than half the class. "</p>

<p>Response: if you are speaking about purely legal jobs with law firms then you would be right. However, those who specialize in tax with an LLM have a LOT of other options such as working with the Big 4 accounting firms, working with other large to medium accounting firms, working at corporations and with the IRS once they resume hiring. IN fact, IRS wants to hire a LOT of people once the budget freeze is over, which will eventually happen.</p>

<p>Eventually meaning not now. That’s a lot of jobs that aren’t in the market. While the Big4 do hire they don’t hire that many people. Corporations do what corporations always do: hire people away from the Big4 and law firms. There are very few corporations that hire directly out of law school. </p>

<p>Not a lot of jobs on the market? Who says that the Big 4 don’t hire many people? Do you have statistics showing this or are you shooting from the hip, which is the case of many posters on TLS? Here is my support: </p>

<p><a href=“Bean counters wanted: Why the Big 4 are in a hiring frenzy | Fortune”>http://fortune.com/2011/03/31/bean-counters-wanted-why-the-big-4-are-in-a-hiring-frenzy/&lt;/a&gt; </p>

<p>How about mid to large accounting firms too.? You also note that there are few corporations that hire out of law school. Again , what is your support for this?</p>

<p>Do you think you’re the first person who ever thought of directly applying to in-house positions or Big4 consulting? People have been trying it for years with little success. It’s no secret where corporations hire from. Spend 10 minutes with in-house counsel and you’ll see BigLaw backgrounds everywhere. Half the people entering BigLaw do so for the express reason that it gives them a shot at working in-house down the line. Since you’re so fond of asking for support, how about you provide some? Where are your statistics that show this secret but apparently enormous Big4/corporate hiring of law grads?</p>

<p>That article is almost three and a half years old-and maybe I missed it, but I didn’t see any reference to tax attorneys, JDs, JDs w/tax LLMs, etc.
So I can’t say whether there’s a boom in hiring for tax lawyers, but this article does not buttress any argument that there is.</p>

<p>Crankyoldman, I worked at a national accounting firm and helped in recruiting. I can DEFINITELY state that in their tax department they like taking JDs/LLM types since there were plenty of them hired. In fact , my former law professor at Miami gave up his partnership at a law firm to head up the tax division at Deloitte Touche. I met dozens of tax professionals at our firm and the vast majority had a legal background.
Also, you are correct in stating that the article is about 3+ years old.HOWEVER, the economy is in better shape now in terms of hiring than it was back in 2011! </p>

<p>Finally, there have been a number of articles that show that there is room in General Counsel’s office for fledging lawyers.</p>

<p>See: <a href=“http://blogs.findlaw.com/in_house/2013/04/can-you-go-in-house-straight-out-of-law-school.html”>http://blogs.findlaw.com/in_house/2013/04/can-you-go-in-house-straight-out-of-law-school.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>and <a href=“http://www.insidecounsel.com/2012/03/01/some-law-school-grads-head-directly-in-house”>http://www.insidecounsel.com/2012/03/01/some-law-school-grads-head-directly-in-house&lt;/a&gt;, See also: <a href=“The magazine for the profession”>http://www.chicagolawyermagazine.com/Archives/2012/03/In-House-Counsel.aspx&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>However, with that said, yes, the typical way corporations ( not necessarily accounting firms) hire in house counsel is through working from midsize to large law firms since corporations are very happy leaving the training to the law firms. However, it appears from the articles that getting a job with a corporation out of law school can certainly be doable. </p>

<p>No one said it was impossible to get a job in-house doing tax or at a Big 4. It’s just uncommon and highly competitive. They, like every other job in law, tend to go to the best credentialed people around. That means a disproportionate number of T14 grads, trickling down to maybe a few T2 grads. It’s not a viable reason to go to law school and it certainly isn’t anywhere close to mitigating the risk of a poorly ranked law school.</p>

<p>Yep, thank goodness, I am totally out of touch with the market. I’ve been continuously and gainfully employed in law for nearly two decades. </p>

<p>I certainly agree it’s a much tougher than when I came out of law school and had my pick of offers from AmLaw 100 firms. But I’ve been around the block and worked at nationals, regionals, locals, and now in-house at a company with annual revenues greater than your typical third world country. I deal with the feds and assistant AGs in various states on an almost daily basis and I know for a fact there are jobs out there. Maybe not making what you want, or where you want, and I never said they’d be easy to land, but there are jobs out there.</p>

<p>In fact, a 30 second internet search shows that at least 5 PA positions in GA were posted in the last 30 days. I have a hard time believing that someone that graduates from the State’s flagship law school in top 10% (as I specified in my post) wouldn’t get a look for one of the junior positions. I have a coworker whose son is in this exact position and just landed a federal defender job two months ago. </p>

<p>At any rate, my point was that too many prospective law students think the world is over if they don’t go T14, or that they have to incur massive debt to get any sort of legal job. It just ain’t true folks. If you get the grades at a top 100 school, stay out of debt, be flexible, and be patient, there are still good careers to be had in law. </p>

<p>If you don’t want to hear my advice, no big deal. I’ll keep it to myself. </p>

<p>You have a 90% chance of not being the top 10%. That makes your position effectively worthless. Great, 1 in 10 people will go to a poor school and manage to get a poorly-paying job in some other geographic area. How does that do anything for the 90% of grads that don’t fall in that category?</p>

<p>You don’t seem to get it Unseen. There will always be “jobs” out there, but once you get out of the top school hierarchy, your chances of getting a decent job drops precipitously. Even the bottom half of the very top schools are struggling to find decent jobs. Get to the lower tiers and get below the 10% of the class, as 90% of students end-up . . . the jobs, except for lousy jobs . . ARE NOT THERE. Its wonderful that you have been so successful, but when only 50% of graduating lawyers are getting jobs requiring the JD, and when the great majority of those jobs are relatively low paying . . . especially relative to the debt incurred, something is very wrong. Just google “is it worth going to law school”, or “don’t go to law school”, and start reading the numerous . .what are called “scam blogs” out there to get a sense of just how bad things are. Law school graduate far too many students at far too high a price, and the ABA is doing everything it can to keep the “student loan conduit money” flowing by making it ever easier to get into law school . . . for example, doing away with the LSAT requirement for 10% of the incoming classes. I would guess for every “opening” for a job, there are hundreds of applicants. . . even for the lousy document review jobs. I too graduated long ago, and yea I did fine. But I wouldn’t want to try today. Paying hundreds of K for the degree . . without any real control of how well you are going to do in school given the fickle nature of grading by law professors? No way. Not today.</p>

<p>Absolutely do get it 'frank. That’s exactly why I told the OP not to discount University of Georgia. With his stats, I think he could be top 10 and could do it on scholarship. Much better position than bottom third from Penn and $200k in debt. </p>

<p>Your original post:</p>

<p>172 is a great LSAT score and I think you could get into any number of schools. Particularly now that law school is kind of out of fashion.</p>

<p>But don’t discount GA. It’s a solid school that feeds into a solid legal market if you want to stay local. And in-state tuition is going to cost you about half of what a T14 would cost you (unless you get financial aid, which could happen if you have the right background).</p>

<p>As a practicing lawyer, I have to warn you against debt. These days, leveraging $200K in debt hoping to get $165k/yr right out of school is not a good bet.</p>

<p>If it were me, I’d apply to a couple of good privates. I think you’d be competitive somewhere like Duke, Cornell, Georgetown, Vandy, etc. and see if they offer a good financial aid package. If not, I’d go to GA, work my butt off to graduate top 10 and law review. Maybe do a federal clerkship. I might not end up working at a sweatshop in NYC, but I’d have plenty of options in Atlanta and, worst case, the world always needs prosecutors and public defenders.</p>

<p>Law can still be a great career if you don’t get trapped by debt.</p>

<p>First, OP is presenting a hypothetical-he doesn’t have that LSAT score, although all would agree it’s a good score.
And then it’s the old joke: How to get a million dollars and not pay a cent in taxes?
First, get the million dollars.
So it’s pretty easy to say “work [your] butt off to graduate top 10 and law review”; all agreed, but much easier said than done. Everyone at every law school has the same goal; 90% don’t make it But the “[M]aybe do a federal clerkship” is risible; even with top 10 and law review-still a mighty tall order.
But s/he can always roll out of bed and get a job as a PD/DA-those jobs are just there for the taking-you’ve even done a 30 second internet search to prove it.
But what do those jobs pay? And where are they? And are they still available?
And while your two decades have been eminently successful, you clearly know nothing about government hiring-here’s a clue-right now all federal jobs are frozen-which means there’s not a lot there. And local jobs aren’t any easier to get. Are there jobs? Yes, and the competition is brutal. When my office posts a job, the applications(all required to be bar admitted JDs) are in the mid double digits. And don’t take my word for it-next time you work with those AGs and AUSAs they’ll clue you in as to how off-base you are.</p>

<p>Cranky, if OP said LSAT score was hypothetical, I missed it. If it’s real, he would be (stat wise) top of the pool at GA. Maybe I’m delusional, but I made coif at a similiar school with lower stats when everyone wanted to go to law school and I see no reason he can’t do the same. </p>

<p>You’re right. Many government agencies are currently in hiring freezes. That’s a fair point, or it would be if OP was looking for a job today. Will it be like that in 3-4 yrs when OP gets out? Maybe, but i think chances are good that they’ll be hiring again. But I’ve never worked for the government, so if I’m missing something here, I’m happy to be educated. </p>

<p>Clearly I ruffled feathers by suggesting that (horror) even if the pyramid scheme days of BigLaw are numbered, we will still need criminal lawyers. I apologize if i bruised someone’s ego. It wasn’t meant as a slight.</p>

<p>We will need criminal lawyers. That doesn’t mean we need new criminal lawyers. Criminal law is particularly saturated since it is one of the few fields where the court will appoint clients for you. It should therefore be no surprise that criminal lawyers make the [url=&lt;a href=“http://www.lawyeredu.org/criminal-defense.html]least[/url”&gt;Criminal Defense Attorney Job Description | Salary | Education -]least[/url</a>] of any of the legal fields. It’s a field that could do with fewer entrants, not more. Competition is fierce, it’s hard to break into, and once you do you’re still far from able to handle a law school-sized loan. </p>

<p>As for the LSAT score, what on earth makes you think that having an above-median LSAT will make it any easier for a student to get into the top 10%? Law exams test specific skills, essentially none of which are on the LSAT. Law exams are about issue spotting and then arguing both sides. The LSAT tests specific logical reasoning skills. I suppose reading comprehension is needed for both, but I’d be very hesitant of extrapolating from the kind of reading comprehension the LSAT tests to the kind you need for a law exam. I’m sure you did very well at your similar school. I’m unclear on why you think that is of any significance. 10% of people will always make the top 10%. That you were one of them is fortunate for you, but doesn’t make it any less likely for the OP.</p>