<p>Cangel, I loved your post because we did the same with our son, ie the jr year talk about finances. </p>
<p>I think it is a good thing to talk frankly with our children about finances, to resist the temptation to reinforce an attitude of entitlement, and to give them the opportunity to make choices and yes, compromises. This is what they will encounter as adults and now is the time to begin teaching them these sometimes difficult lessons.</p>
<p>We are glad we took this route because it did teach our son to seriously consider the cost of his education because, being responsible for tuition and fees, he had a major stake in it. He took the challenge very seriously and worked like hell to find colleges which seemed suited to his needs yet offered an opportunity for merit aid. And because he has such a big stake in his education, he is taking his academics more seriously than he did in hs, working with his advisor to chart out a preliminary 5 year schedule for a combined BS/MS degree and overloading his schedule this semester to take an elective in his major that luckily fits into his schedule.</p>
<p>Fortunately he has never felt a sense of entitlement because our no, early on, meant no. We went out of our way to make him buy things by saving his allowance, thus discouraging fuzzy feelings of instant gratification. Hey, he still doesnt own an ipod!!</p>
<p>My advice is, like Cangel noted, start junior year by setting the parameters for college choices. Encourage them to do their own research, with you being like an advisor when necessary. Make them have a stake in their education. I realize that all students are not alike and some may not be willing do the work necessary so early on. But they must be told that this could be detrimental to their choices come April senior year. Our son received one $60,000 merit scholarship during his junior year which made gave him an opportunity to pursue an interdisciplinary program in artificial intelligence.</p>
<p>PS. And Cangel, your student may find that if she does go to grad school, she will be fully supported financially and have a nice nest egg at graduation!!!</p>
<p>This is an interesting thread. I just had a conversation with a friend whose daughter got into her first choice using early decision. I asked him what he would have done differently. This was his answer:</p>
<ol>
<li>I would never have advised her to apply ED. She received some nice merit awards from several very good schools that would have made a difference. He doens't think that having to pay full freight at Yale was a smart move since they had to take out loans. </li>
</ol>
<p>Bottom Line: rarely, if ever, apply early decision unless you can afford to get no monetary awards.</p>
<p>2.Prepare at least the essays over the summer. This would have lessoned the stress in the senior year for both child and parents.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Take the ACT as well as the SAT: Most schools take both exams, and the student can submit the better score. For some kids, the ACT is much easier.</p></li>
<li><p>Do not take AP courses in the senior year. Take college courses if the school allows. His daughter's school has a limit on AP credits that they will take, plus require 5s to get credit. Had she taken courses at the local college, she probably would have gotten a lot more credit against liberal arts reqirements.</p></li>
<li><p>Take the courses in the local college that you would hate to take when you get into the college of your choice. Thus, if math is your "weakness, or most disliked subject," take a college math course in order to place out of it. This should definitely help the college GPA.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I think if we had it to do over again, we'd do it almost the same way.</p>
<p>My son applied EA (<em>not</em> ED) to a school he didn't count on an acceptance from. They accepted him. And then they did their courting of their EA students. It made a major difference in the entire landscape of admissions and his eventual choice (he did choose to attend the EA school).</p>
<p>In our case, my son would ABSOLUTELY take his AP load again senior year, and I would ENCOURAGE it. Among other things, at his school the AP courses are, in fact, more challenging and engage the students more: they don't just "teach to the test". He craved that extra challenge and engagement, so for him, it was worthwhile. While his college only accepts certain AP credits, he is a strong AP tester and was confident of 5s. By taking AP English Comp and Lit senior year and doing well on the exams, for instance, he was not required to take an essay-writing exam over the summer nor a freshman writing course. </p>
<p>Note that some colleges will not simply accept credit for college courses taken in HS, but will still require the student to pass a placement exam in those courses before being given credit. (And some will not accept credits at all.) So YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary) on this one: it pays to investigate the policy at the colleges of most interest. I'd say take college courses in HS if you're interested in the material and need the challenge, not just to place out of courses at college.</p>
<p>(PS: My son's final decision was between a full-tuition scholarship at an excellent, small new college, or paying full-freight at his EA school. It was not an easy decision, but from what I can tell of his first week away, he's made the right choice for him. As an aside, he was a NMF and did not receive a penny from anywhere. NMF is a nice honor, but it's wise not to count on it materializing into anything substantive, necessarily. Obviously it does for some, but not for others.)</p>
<p>"Take the courses in the local college that you would hate to take when you get into the college of your choice. Thus, if math is your "weakness, or most disliked subject," take a college math course in order to place out of it. "</p>
<p>My son did this, taking calculus at the community college as a junior and statistics as a senior. (He is good at math, but didn't really care for it.) It turned out he would not have needed either, since he opted to major in music, rather than the pre-med he had considered, but he still got credit for the classes and doesn't have to take any math/science in college.</p>
<p>Wow, thanks for all the insights. Really appreciate hearing from folks who have been through all of this.</p>
<p>We've told son what we can afford $80,000. Will see how things evolve from here. He took 4 AP exams as a junior & got 5s for Physics, Comp Sci & English Comp B, 4 in US History. He's taking more APs this year & expects to get 5s--econ (micro & macro), eng lit, calculus ab, physics c, comp sci advanced. He also took statistics at a local college over the summer & got an A & the counselor says most colleges should give him credit for it.
He loves the AP classes offered at his school--better teachers, courses are also more interesting.</p>
<p>Son doesn't have any clear favorites at this point. His choices continue to evolve, but he says he can see himself being happy & thriving in many different environments.</p>
<p>My older D turned down full rides at Georgia Tech and our state U. She refused $28,000/year from Brandeis and Tulane, and $20,000/year from George Washington. </p>
<p>She was admitted into her dream school and attended. Will (hopefully!) graduate this May and go on to Law School.</p>
<p>Choosing to pay full price for a private highly selective school is a bit nutty when there are schools where my child would have earned merit money and our state has stellar flagship public schools. I can't say we have even felt the impact of our folly just yet, but 25 years ago we were scholarship and loan recipients and now we don't meet that criteria..which I guess means the system worked.<br>
We evision used aging cars, lack of funds for renovations hoped for, simple vacations, and a return to the work force for the homemaker. I think the thing that my son is going to have due to our decision to send him to a very expensive option, is a fabulous peer group of keenly interesting and talented kids. Attending a school that was not particularly selective many years ago meant that the faculty influenced and inspired me when my peers often did not. I am also pleased that although we did not qualify for need money in 2005 and sometimes this does feel like being punished for hard work, institutions like my son's can afford to support a large number of qualified students who deserve to be there but don't have the means, so he will be in an economically and culturally diverse set of peers, some of whom grew up in modest circumstances like his parents.<br>
We were pretty dreamy and impractical in his school list and did not plan much based on saving money. We also recall being content to live in genteel poverty for years, taking on loans, living in some marginal standards and supporting ourselves for grad schools, and our son knows this is what is awaiting him after four years at his very expensive private dream undergrad school.<br>
Thing we would do differently. Don't apply to any school you would not truly be pleased and privileged to attend. He applied to seven schools. Five would have been enough, with 2 to 3 as Reaches and at least two solid matches on the list.<br>
Do give your all to your Reach application and then Give your All to your Match Application. Love your Match schools, attach to your match and your mental outlook will be sunny and positive. This is what my son did and I think it made his interviews go especially well for reaches and matches. He was crushed to get a wait list but got reach admissions that could not be counted on as well. There was never a time he would not have been proud to attend his match school.</p>
<p>Taxguy, I'm assuming, then, that your friend's D was offered merit award from schools with rolling admissions or early action. Otherwise, she was in contempt of the ED agreement to terminate all other applications once the acceptance is received. Most ED applications' instructions will stress that students should not apply ED if they are dependent upon a specific amount of financial aid. S turned down several schools from which he had received merit aid to attend the school of his choice (a UC where OOS costs were still less than what he would have paid even with the merit aid). Halfway through junior year, he was granted in-state residency that saved him even more money than anticipated. One never knows.</p>
<p>As for essay preparation, definitely writing the essays earlier rather than later is best. S had a winter sport, so his essays were done in October. D had a fall sport, but she also participates in the inaugural essay-writing workshop sponsored by the HS's PTO on a Saturday in September. As a result, she was able to future define her essay topics and hone her drafts before the athletic season got fully underway.</p>
<p>Little Mother, I don't know exactly what my friend's situation entailed. I do know that after his child was accepted, they received some substantial merit offers from other schools. Maybe they didn't terminate their other school applications soon enough. Who knows?</p>
<p>We would have visited a few more schools, perhaps. All turned out well, he was accepted into his first choice school and his close second choice, and he (and we) liked his safeties, to which he was accepted, we all would have been very happy with them. </p>
<p>As far as senior year my S took only one AP course and spent some time taking courses he never before had time for: film, photography, art, etc. He found he had a talent for art that he (and we) did not know about. It has made him rethink some career goals. I would not have had him trade that experience for the opportunity to place out of a couple more classes. College begins in a couple of weeks and he is getting visibly excited.</p>
<p>Wow--thanks for these additional insights. They're all very helpful. Love reading about what folks have decided and why--helps us figure out what resonates with us as well. Any more?</p>
<p>My S's senior year was mainly spent at a local state school with a huge campus. He attended free through post secondary. It was an awesome experience for him to be not only handling scheduling (with an adviser), but also managing his time day to day. It left him (and us) with the confidence to know that he could handle college work and deal with professors. We felt pretty good leaving him at washu last week. His big challenge will be handling a roommate who is very different from him. </p>
<p>We were interested in possible merit money and came up with a good list of schools that give that. Umich, Rice, Washu, UChicago, etc.. BIG mistake in not applying early enough and not visiting all of these schools. He applied on Dec 10 (all but Chicago which was EA). For example..He missed out on a big UMich scholarship by just a few days as you had to be accepted by Jan 15 and he was by Jan 24. </p>
<p>What we learned...APPLY EARLY and visit all schools you apply to if you are interested in merit money.</p>
<p>kdos,
why do you recommend visiting schools for which you are interested in merit money? </p>
<p>I have one in the pipeline (junior in high school) and one who is attending his 1st choice school (a large public university in northern CA)</p>
<p>As for senior year, having a challenging and/or full schedule reads well on the app for at least some schools. This is definitely true for the UCs. Sons went/going to public high school. My opinion is that we've paid for this free education, so it is worth taking advantage of what is offered and not slack off in senior year. As per S1, he was the only one in senior year who took 6 classes.</p>
<p>1- I thought it would show more serious interest to the school (instead maybe it looked like he wasn't THAT interested and wouldn't actually go there)
2- It would have really told us how serious WE were. Visits (especially ones during school sessions) are very valuable. For example, we didn't know how much we liked WASHU until we moved him in and spent a few days there. It was my husband's 2nd visit, my first and my son's 3rd.</p>
<p>I felt after the whole thing, that you cannot visit too many schools and really cannot start looking too early. Visiting helped my S refine what he was comfortable with and was aiming for.</p>
<p>For my oldest who is now a sophomore in college here are a few pluses and minuses from the process:</p>
<p>Pluses:
- Got all of his testing out of the way by the end of Junior year.
- Did not apply anywhere ED.
- Finished all of his applications by November 15, most by November 1.
- Apply to at least one rolling admissions school or open EA
- Found some schools that offered merit aid in his area of interest.</p>
<p>Minuses:
- Should have taken more AP classes junior and senior year
- Should have placed more emphasis on SAT IIs and PSAT
- Should not have applied last minute to schools that solicited him in late December. (He submitted partial apps with their offer of a fee waiver and stopped. He had done enough already, see above).</p>
<p>Overall, he had a less stressful time from Jan 1 through early April than many of his friends in school because he already had some acceptances.</p>
<p>No regrets here, but a mistake we did make was having our D's first interview be with her reach school after a week long trip...It went okay instead of great. I think I would have my kid interview at a safety first...just to get them used to the pace. We went top of the list down, I would switch to bottom up.</p>
<p>I would have heeded the warnings I heard that some schools were not as need blind as they led people to believe..I thought they were cynics and that it wouldn't apply to my gifted kid...I was wrong..Phone calls and mail died off from some schools right after Fafsa was submitted. Too much of a coincidence.</p>
<p>I might have encouraged my D to apply to a safety with rolling admissions just to take the edge off.</p>
<p>What I think we did right....picked a safety that would have provided a decent education at an affordable price..visited most colleges on her list..researched over the internet, school news papers, police reports, and anything else we could find, this allowed her to pick a school that was the best fit for her.</p>
<p>I second kdos above regarding getting the application in early at Michigan for merit aid consideration. Somehow my d missed any mention of a scholarship deadline - I read about it on this board and we realized she missed the cutoff by four days! Oh, well. Thankfully, she's extremely happy where she is (Vanderbilt w/ merit aid) </p>
<p>She never went for a dream school where merit aid wasn't a possibility. Her choice - we have discussed this with each of our 3 kids, and they know the dollar amount we can provide. It's up to them to either find schools that fit in this budget, go for scholarships, or consider making up the difference in loans. This has been our understanding with them from very early on, and they're satisfied with it.</p>
<p>Now, I wish I'd done things differently - particularly returning to the work force a few years earlier, which would have made a big difference - but that's hindsight.</p>
<p>One thing my d would have done differently is drop her major EC once it no longer made her happy, at the end of junior year. She elected to continue because she thought its absence would have required an explanation in her applications, which might have diluted the impact of her essays. In retrospect, she feels this wasn't necessary. It meant she had to grin and bear it for about 6 months - finally quit in January of senior year. (And became a much more agreeable person!)</p>
<p>I really don't understand your friend's reasoning.
Last year, Yale went SCEA. Your friend's D, if she applied for admission last year (i.e., the year before last) would have been allowed to apply early only to Yale but was free to apply RD to as many other schools as she wished. So the whole problem with ED is entirely moot.
If, however, he describes the situation as it pertained before Yale went from ED to SCEA, then your friend would have been in breach of ED regulations by applying elsewhere. It's something one would not wish to broadcast, even to friends.</p>
<p>I'm with Mootmom on taking the most challenging courses available in senior year, whether they are APs or college courses, without regard to whether they will count for credit or not. S2's philosophy is that he wants to challenge himself. He's taken 9 college courses for which he will not receive credit (even though he took them at the school he is attending). They will enable him to take more advanced courses in college. He is also eligible for Advanced Standing on the basis of his performance on APs, but he gives no sign of wanting to take up the option.<br>
For students who wish to use the Advanced Standing option, make sure to read the rules. At some colleges, the only way to achieve it is through APs, not college classes. And some colleges just do not allow that option at all.</p>