I'm Interested in Attending an Ivy League College...Placement Statistics?

Prep School Admissions
41

I understand that kids believe the collective wisdom of other kids but what @ChoatieMom says here needs to be highlighted. It’s my experience that CC offices are not hiding this info, you just need to ask the right questions.

Yes, every year unhooked kids get into the top Ivy schools. But those kids are the amazing top kids. Eg: last year a white male Groton kid got into a top Ivy - he was generally acknowledged as a genius by his friends. His siblings went to FAR less “impressive” schools. If you aren’t in the top 5-10% of your BS class and you don’t have a compelling hook you are not going to be a strong Ivy candidate.

Please believe that while stats may present a certain picture when you dig deeper it’s just not that simple. Kids generally don’t have the full picture.

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42

@MacJackAttack - yes - that’s been our experience - at least among kiddo and friends who have been at boarding school since the get go. There is also a maturity level that we do not see from kids back home in our bend in the swamp.

Kiddo recently had an interview with a highly ranked college (top 15). When asked about preparing for the interview or practicing, Kiddo’s response was “ Did 8 interviews for boarding school when I was only 13. In my 4th year dealing with Harkness Hogs - so, I’ve got this!”

Interview went very well and they spent over an hour talking about life and golf :partying_face: :golf:

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43

I don’t think DS and his friends were super stressed. I tended to know when colleges released decisions before he did (and had checked!)

There still is stress in the environment. With that said, the CC understands this, and perhaps as a result of it being a residential community, tries to get out in front of it. For example, our school has programming to help juniors manage the Thanksgiving table discussion that might occur.

I think our BS knew kids talked with each other and that they were coming from different places that colud cause tension. But they also helped them find ways to keep perspective. In this way, our CC office wasn’t just about placement but about having a healthy experience through it.

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44

I think it is relative. If kids aren’t playing the elite college app game, that is the least stressful way to go through high school, and there are very few bs kids who aren’t. But compared to public school kids who don’t have the application experience and don’t have as much college counseling support - I think the elite app process isn’t nearly as stressful for bs kids and parents alike.

That isn’t to say that the process isn’t stressful, or that there aren’t super stressed bs kids. Bs has some super competitive students and families, it is self-selective that way. If I am one of those kids, I would rather go through college apps with the support of the bs machinery than not. But I wouldn’t have illusions that my outcomes would be necessarily better than if I went to my local public. To the extent kiddo’s chances are better, and who’s to say they are, it is because he has had more advanced coursework and EC opportunities, he has been well-counseled and supported, and his readiness to hit the ground running will come across.

Applying in a pandemic would be awfully stressful. Bs made it easier. Eg, I didn’t have to even think about standardized testing being canceled. The school was a testing site, and they just handled it. College reps actually came to campus this fall. Letters of Rec? Done without me being involved. College app meetings and workshops aplenty were structured into his days. I didn’t have to nag or hover once - unlike with bs apps. I haven’t even read his essays; his CC and English teacher gave copious feedback. Bs may be stressful, but the application process was much less so than if he were at home doing it.

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45

Just going to any one of those schools won’t really help you all that much. You need to get good grades (in incessantly difficult classes where people are happy about B+s) and have EC leadership (in positions that you’ll likely be competing with 10-15 other people equally as qualified as you for). That’s the real challenge—getting in was the easiest part of my time at my school (Lawrenceville, which is usually one of the top schools on those lists).

46

It’s not an “excuse.” It’s a fact, and remains a fact. The high acceptance rate of Choate students at Yale is mostly driven by the high percentage of faculty parents, followed by legacy.

The acceptance rate for Choate students at Columbia is 20.6%, compared to the overall acceptance rate of 5.4%. It is no secret that Choate and Hotchkiss have very strong ties to NYC elite who have legacy or other connections to Columbia and NYU. Again, explaining most of the matriculations to the former, and many to the latter.

The acceptance rate for Choate students at Cornell over the past 2 years is 13.3%, compared to Cornell’s overall acceptance rate of 10.9%. Not even data to suggest a feeder relationship.

Ironically, you have as an aside mentioned the one school that Choate has a high acceptance rate to, that is not clearly explained by all of the usual factors (athletics, legacy, fac brat, etc.). That is the University of Chicago. The acceptance rate for Choate students at U Chicago over the past 2 years is 30.8%, compared to U Chicago’s overall acceptance rate of 6.2%. I’m not sure that the word “feeder” is accurate, but there are clearly strong connections between the two schools, such that the infamously brutal U Chicago values the preparation that Choate students receive. U Chicago is not only “where fun goes to die”, it’s “where Choate students’ fun goes to die.”

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47

This seems to be true across the board with prep schools and UofC. They seem to be scooping up high performing unhooked prep school kids in significant numbers. Hard to say what is going on, though, as UofC is not as transparent with admissions data as other elites.

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48

I don’t think this is it. UChicago has been targeting elite private schools and public magnet schools in recent years. These schools have received special attention and treatment from UChicago, and their students have been disproportionally admitted to UChicago, relative to other elite colleges (even those with greater emphasis on academic rigors).

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49

Seems pretty apparent that it is a yield play to me. Prep school kids who are willing to lock into Chicago early seem to have a greatly enhanced chance of admission, even if they aren’t the top students from these schools. It’s a win-win. The status hungry applicants from these schools who have little or no chance at most top 10’s get the “prestige” of a top 10, and Chicago not only gets better yield numbers, it also gets high stat, high paying students who are a good bet to be able to succeed there.

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50

Probably right. I am so curious what percentage of the students are from private schools. Has to be a lot.

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51

Long time ago when I was an undergrad at U. of C., but back then you had to be mighty smart and hardworking even to get through. Plenty of kids flunked out, transferred away, etc. Classes there were much more difficult than at the Ivy I attended for graduate school. If things haven’t changed then U. of C. needs to accept kids with great academic preparation, which BS kids are more likely to have than kids from PS.

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According to the data compiled here, Chicago dropped from a USNWR ranking as high as #5 in 1985 to as low as #15 in 2006. Since then it’s climbed steadily and most recently is at #6.

Now…statistical noise aside, and whether you value the rankings or not, or feel there’s any difference between #15 and #16, or even #15 and #5, I’m of the completely uninformed opinion that Chicago has definitely been doing “things” in an attempt to game the USNWR algorithm. Those “things” may very well include the kind of thing @1NJParent posits.

Given the stakes, I’d further bet that they’re not alone in these efforts.

53

You’ve gotten a lot of good advice from others, which I generally agree with. There is one other bit that needs to be mentioned. All of the selective colleges have established relations with several high schools (feeders). This has been documented in several books. Take a look at Mitch Steven’s book Creating a Class for more details.

But basically here is how it works. A selective college receives a steady number of high quality applicants from a certain high school. They get to know the guidance counselors very well, and the grading rigor of key teachers. Eventually they know that kids who graduate at the top of their class, and who get a good letter of recommendation would make great admits. Stevens describes this in his book as “getting something going”, or basically a quid pro quo. In return for the high school sending their best applicants, the college gives a number of slots to that high school. There is no written guarantee, it is more of a soft agreement. These well heeled high schools have regular teleconferences with each of the Ivy admissions offices. Since college admissions has limited career growth, many choose to go onto becoming counselors at private high schools. There are a number of other intangible favors which are exchanged, none of these are given to guidance counselors at non-favored schools. These include things like: direct phone access, ability to petition off the waitlist, Z-list and others. The nature of the relationships varies considerably. None of this is illegal, but they are not at all forthcoming about all of the horse-trading that happens behind the scenes.

These relationships have been in existence for many years. In some schools like Andover, Exeter, etc probably for 150+ years. So this means that if you graduate from the top of your class at Milton, and get a good push from the counseling office, that you have a very good chance of getting accepted at Harvard. Similar story between Andover-Yale, Deerfield-Dartmouth, Lawrenceville-Princeton, Choate-Yale, Exeter-MIT, etc.

This is by no means a guarantee, and does not take into account legacies, development cases, facbrats and athletes. But there is a good reason why students at the well known boarding schools do so well with college admissions. But if you are confident that you’re graduate as valedictorian from one of these boarding schools you’ll have a decent chance at the connected Ivy admissions office.

Since you can’t possibly predict if you’re going to be valedictorian at this stage, this is why most parents are suggesting that you focus on fit. And I agree with that. Don’t try to game the system by picking a boarding school based on college placement. Its more important that you’re successful. That will be much more important in the long-run than an ivy league acceptance letter.

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54

Good insights posted above….I would also add (again) that there are many athletic spots that are embedded within those matriculation statistics.

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55

@1NJParent - yes, and from the granular data I’ve seen at a couple of elite BSs, Chicago may have a strategy to accept “a lot” more unhooked Regular Decision and unhooked Early Decision “B+ and A-” students than unhooked “A and A+” students (based on acceptance rates).

Those it is is admitting from elite BSs have significantly lower grades than those admitted to peer colleges, although they have comparable SAT scores, and most Chicago-BS applicants are unhooked and using Regular Decision.

Chicago’s yield from BS admits has been sky-high (~90%), higher than some of the HYPSMs from BSs, which suggests UofC is the highest ranked school-offer for many of those admitteds.

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56

Harvard-Westlake is one of the few HSs that publishes specific admit rates by class rank. A summary is below for kids “without distinction” in the highest GPA grouping, over the 2018-2020 period. Some colleges had a higher acceptance rate than average among top stat applicants. Some did not. More information about the applicants is necessary to estimate, if the high school name and/or connections had any influence.

Admit Rates for Highest GPA Kids at Harvard Westlake
Yale – 10/42 = 24% accepted
Chicago – 8/37 = 22% accepted
MIT – 6/29 = 21% accepted
Princeton – 3/26 = 11.5% accepted
Harvard – 5/58 = 8.6% accepted
Stanford – 4/51 = 7.8% accepted

Regarding Chicago specifically, the more interesting relationship occurs at among the not-highest GPA kids. Their Chicago admit rate for 3.6 to 3.8 GPA is quite high, even higher than the admit rate among the top GPA/rank ids. This pattern also occurred in previous years, so it does not appear to just be a random anomaly. One possible explanation is the highest GPA kids are more likely to use their REA/SCEA on a HYPSM… and apply RD to Chicago, while the not highest GPA kids are more likely to use their ED on Chicago. The Chicago boost may be more specific ED/ED2 kids, rather than RD. I only listed admit rates for colleges that averaged at least 1 acceptance per year.

Admit Rates for 3.6 to 3.8 GPA Kids at Harvard Westlake
Chicago – 17/36 = 47% accepted
MIT – <1 per year (too small sample)
Yale – <1 per year (too small sample)
Harvard – <1 per year (too small sample)
Stanford – <1 per year (too small sample)
Princeton – 0 acceptances

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57

I completely agree with @UltimaCroix and UChicago. From my son’s boarding school, a disproportionate # of admits came from students in the 2nd-3rd deciles who were admitted to UChicago. UChicago looks for high scoring, full pay boarding school students. They want the yields to remain high, so they target the kids in the lower deciles. This is an interesting strategy, and it seems to be working out for them. I don’t have hard numbers to back this up, but I’ve noticed this trend too.

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58

Saw a similar trend in my kid’s good but not elite private day school. That must be part of the strategy: be the most attractive option (by far in many cases) for solid, full pay applicants in order to assure high yield.

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59

Very well written explanation and description.

It is interesting to compare the situations in the East Coast, where private prep schools are at the top of the pile to the Chicago area, where the high schools with the best reputations are the public magnet schools. These schools do not have a legacy and athletic admissions, so they do not have the large number of legacies for “elite” colleges, nor do they have the large number of athletic admissions to “elite” colleges. So most of their admissions to “elite” colleges are based on the accomplishments of the students, the reputation of the school, and these connections between the school and the colleges.

For example, Walter Payton in Chicago has around 30% of the students at Payton are considered low Income by the state of Illinois, meaning that they get discounted or free lunch, or their parents are on federal or state aid, so bottom 20%-40% by income. For comparison, “elite” private prep schools have 30% from the bottom 80% by income. While the income distribution is not comparable to that of the city, it is still far from the mostly wealthy students at “elite” private prep schools. That means that there are far fewer legacies and potential development admissions. Since Payton doesn’t consider legacy of athletic ability for admissions, this reduces almost all athletics admissions to colleges, as well as another large percent of potential legacies for colleges (a large number of “elite” prep schools legacies are also legacies to elite colleges).

Since admissions to Payton are very tough, and no students get a nudge, students are all pretty good.

So, without athletic admissions, a small number of legacies, and very few super wealthy families with connections at “elite” colleges, Walter Payton has about 15%-20% of its graduating classes ending up at “T10” colleges, and another 10%-15% at “T20” colleges.

That is probably what one should expect from all of the “elite” private prep schools, once you remove legacies, athletes, super wealthy and connected families, and such.

However, the connections between GCs and AOs still exists, and is clear when looking at the patterns of attendance at low admission colleges.

For example, and very large number attend NWU, but not equivalent colleges in other parts of the country. More attended UChicago than any other colleges with similar acceptance rates. The number who attend MIT, Harvard, and Yale is strong, but very few attend Princeton. Similar patterns can be seen in matriculations to LACs - Pomona has many more Payton graduates than it does Williams, Amherst, and Swarthmore together. Very few attended Notre Dame, since Payton is not a Catholic high school.

So schools like Payton will tell us what the real boost is for unhooked kids who attend an “elite” high school.

I would expect though, that the “elite” east coast boarding schools have an additional advantage. Thy have decades of connection, and generations of there being a pipeline from these high schools to the Ivies and other “elite” colleges. This benefits unhooked students as well these days.

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60

Your analysis is fascinating, @MWolf. For a HS like Walter Payton, which opened only 20 years ago, I wonder how these AO-GC relationships - particularly with schools outside of Chicagoland - were cultivated (and why not with other top schools)?