<p>LOL, that would be great, wouldn't it?
I should get in just because I'm cool enough to quote Harry Potter in the midst of a heated, passionate discussion about (for the umpteenth time) Cornell vs. Penn.
We'll see on March 31st.
:(</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Wow, you are so insecure it's incredible. I'm glad that high schoolers admire you and your Penn degree's undeniable cachet. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No, it is not at all ridiculous to do so. Wharton makes up one quarter of the school, but let's be honest here, none of Penn's other colleges are even close to Wharton level.</p>
<p>Wharton does do a great deal to help Penn's reputation, that's pretty undeniable. Why does the Penn bookstore only sell Wharton sweatshirts, but not engineering, CAS, or nursing sweatshirts?</p>
<p>I am curious, would the "One University Policy" be without Wharton? When I visited for the admitted students weekend, the then associate dean of the engineering college, Sampath Kannan, continually emphasized that because of the "One University Policy," engineering and arts students could take classes in Wharton.</p>
<p>Penn Engineering is pretty crappy (you yourself claimed that Penn has to "do something about this school": <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-pennsylvania/636404-cas-acceptance-rate-step-right-up.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-pennsylvania/636404-cas-acceptance-rate-step-right-up.html</a>), CAS doesn't provide anything a good liberal arts program can't, and nursing is good but not nearly at Wharton level.</p>
<p>Penn has many top 15/top 20 programs but how does this translate to it being a top 5/top 10 university? Wharton being number one helps it dearly in this matter. I know you're probably insecure about this matter too, so you can either:</p>
<p>A) transfer to Wharton (good luck with that, when I was considering Penn the GPA requirement was a 3.7 or a 3.8, who knows, it's probably higher now) </p>
<p>or</p>
<p>B) just deal with it. </p>
<p>But don't worry, you'll always be very popular and have incredible cachet among high schoolers thanks to your Penn degree.</p>
<p>
[quote]
we'll never be able to figure out what effect Wharton has on the school unless Penn releases its numbers by college.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually, Penn did release the data for the individual schools. The acceptance rate data can be found here: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-pennsylvania/636404-cas-acceptance-rate-step-right-up.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-pennsylvania/636404-cas-acceptance-rate-step-right-up.html</a>
You'll see that the CAS rate is actually slightly lower than the overall reported rate, due to engineering's very high acceptance rate. Wharton's only acts to balance it out, since it is roughly the same size as engineering.
Furthermore, the deans revealed in 2004 that the difference in Wharton and CAS SAT averages were only 14 points. Source? this book: Amazon.com:</a> The Running of the Bulls: Inside the Cutthroat Race from Wharton to Wall Street: Nicole Ridgway: Books
Finally, you should note that 99% of Penn freshman come from the top 10% of their HS classes (compared to Cornell's 88%). Wharton, which is only 22% of the school, cannot account for all of that.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Wharton does do a great deal to help Penn's reputation, that's pretty undeniable. Why does the Penn bookstore only sell Wharton sweatshirts, but not engineering, CAS, or nursing sweatshirts?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually, they sell those T-Shirts/apparel for each of the undergrad schools.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Penn has many top 15/top 20 programs but how does this translate to it being a top 5/top 10 university? Wharton being number one helps it dearly in this matter.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I suppose you've never heard of Penn's nationally regarded medical school (#3), law school (#7), linguistics, English, history, psychology, econ, sociology departments (all in the top 10).
I believe 40/56 of Penn's departments are in the top 10 range, although you can count for yourself:
04/03/07</a>, Penn’s Graduate School Rankings - Almanac, Vol. 53, No. 28
That's not even the complete list though, not by a long shot. It doesn't include many other departments that are top-10: art history, neurobiology, etc.</p>
<p>Basically, Brown Man, you're wrong. CAS is extremely close to Wharton in terms of student quality, if not popularity. And Penn's departments are all extremely strong across all levels, with the notable exceptions of math and mechanical engineering. Those are only two departments out of many more, however.</p>
<p>As for transferring to Wharton: my GPA is just above 3.8, which is in range. My major, however, has nothing to do with business, and I have literally no interest in doing so.</p>
<p>Nice try, guys! ;)</p>
<p>
[quote]
And Penn's departments are all extremely strong across all levels, with the notable exceptions of math and mechanical engineering. Those are only two departments out of many more, however.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>"Penn" and "engineering" just don't mix at all... they sometimes fight each other too ~</p>
<p>
[quote]
Actually, they sell those T-Shirts/apparel for each of the undergrad schools.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, at the physical location of the bookstore they don't.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I suppose you've never heard of Penn's nationally regarded medical school (#3), law school (#7), linguistics, English, history, psychology, econ, sociology departments (all in the top 10).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I suppose you've never heard that law school and medical school are graduate departments?
Once again, what does Penn CAS offer that a good liberal arts school doesn't? Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Dartmouth, Columbia, Brown, Stanford, Cornell, Swarthmore, etc. all offer liberal arts programs that are just as good if not better than the ones offered by Penn's CAS.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Basically, Brown Man, you're wrong. CAS is extremely close to Wharton in terms of student quality, if not popularity.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You keep telling yourself that if it'll make yourself feel better, but you can't avoid the truth: Wharton is an undisputed #1 and CAS is not even close. Wharton is extremely popular, and well... CAS doesn't offer anything unique you can't find at a good liberal arts school. </p>
<p>
[quote]
And Penn's departments are all extremely strong across all levels, with the notable exceptions of math and mechanical engineering.
[/quote]
You forgot about electrical engineering, systems engineering, computer engineering, computer science... the list goes on. Basically, Penn engineering is trash with the exception of bioengineering. You yourself said it:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Actually, as a transfer, you're ineligible to transfer between schools. Penn created this policy so people don't try to backdoor into Wharton, since they know it's undisputedly their best school:</p>
<p>Penn</a> Admissions: Transfer Information for Undergraduate Schools</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Why should I care? I was admitted to both schools as a high school student, and Cornell's engineering program is infinitely better than Penn's. </p>
<p>Dammit, I should have gone to Penn because high schoolers think that Penn Degrees have cachet...</p>
<p>Brown Man, you added nothing to your previous points, all which I completely trashed. It seems to me as though you're grasping at straws here, and with nothing to hold on to, you're stuck with simply recycling your old points, which still hold no water.</p>
<p>I'm afraid that won't work on this thread, though. I will address and destroy your sophism once and for all.</p>
<p>
[quote]
No, not at the physical location of the bookstore they don't.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Penn sells shirts and sweatshirts at the bookstore that have only a Penn crest (for CAS), a Penn crest followed by Wharton (for Wharton), and a Penn crest followed by Engineering (for Engineering). At the beginning of each semester, they usually have a selection of Nursing apparel as well, but far less of it; there are only ~95 nurses in each class, compared to 1500 CAS-ers.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I suppose you've never heard that law school and medical aschool are graduate departments?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The law and medical schools share professors with the undergrad departments, and as such, faculty strength in both schools directly effects the strength and rankings of the undergraduate departments. One of my professors last semester was a psychiatrist from the med school. The class was fantastic.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You forgot about electrical engineering, systems engineering, computer engineering... the list goes on.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>OK: all forms of engineering. You're still totally ignoring the fact that one of your previous statements - "Penn has many top 15/top 20 programs but how does this translate to it being a top 5/top 10 university? Wharton being number one helps it dearly in this matter" - is COMPLETELY incorrect, and in fact nearly all of Penn's other departments are amazing.</p>
<p>To reiterate: I am not an engineering student. Penn's focus is not engineering. Therefore, I do not care how crappy the engineering is. Yale's engineering is terrible, also; are you going to tell me that Cornell is better? Yes, you might be an engineer. This has no bearing on my argument, however, which is about the strength of CAS.</p>
<p>So, let's see: I've proved to you that CAS quality is almost the same as Wharton, that its departments are just as good, and that Penn itself deserves its top-10 berth with or without the help of Wharton's business departments.</p>
<p>Let me guess: your next jab will be at... the engineering again? I truly can't imagine.</p>
<p>But wait! Allow me to deliver the coup de grace to your sophistry and insanity in general. You directly contradicted yourself, the perennial sign of a bad argument.</p>
<p>First you wrote that I had the option to transfer in Wharton:
[quote]
you can either:</p>
<p>A) transfer to Wharton
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You soon followed this with the following statement:
[quote]
as a transfer, you're ineligible to transfer between schools.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'd say you've lost it. If not your sanity, then at the very least this argument. :)</p>
<p>somebody (muerteapablo) is FRUSTRATED</p>
<p>
[quote]
Penn sells shirts and sweatshirts at the bookstore that have only a Penn crest (for CAS), a Penn crest followed by Wharton (for Wharton), and a Penn crest followed by Engineering (for Engineering). At the beginning of each semester, they usually have a selection of Nursing apparel as well, but far less of it; there are only ~95 nurses in each class, compared to 1500 CAS-ers.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't buy this one bit. I visited in January '07 to check out Penn and April '07 for the admitted students weekend... I distinctly remember wanting to buy an engineering sweatshirt during both visits and being unable to do so.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The law and medical schools share professors with the undergrad departments, and as such, faculty strength in both schools directly effects the strength and rankings of the undergraduate departments. One of my professors last semester was a psychiatrist from the med school. The class was fantastic.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You provided no undergraduate rankings... </p>
<p>Furthermore, would you care to provide me the names of professors that are shared between the medical school, and undergrad Penn? The law school and undergrad Penn? Law and medical schools at many universities rarely share their professors with undergraduate departments, and I doubt Penn is any different.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So, let's see: I've proved to you that CAS quality is almost the same as Wharton
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, you haven't proved this yet. You probably won't be able to either, because it's simply not true. Let me repeat this one more time, since you've conveniently evaded this point for about 2-3 posts now. what does Penn CAS offer that a good liberal arts school doesn't? I can name at least 10 schools that have a CAS at least as good as Penn's. I can name zero undergraduate business schools as good as Wharton. WHARTON >>>>>>CAS</p>
<p>
[quote]
that its departments are just as good,
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You haven't proved this either. Fat chance you will. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Penn itself deserves its top-10 berth with or without the help of Wharton's business departments.
[/quote]
First of all, you have provided graduate rankings including medical and law school rankings, in order to substantiate the strength of undergraduate departments. </p>
<p>Second, EVEN according to those rankings, Penn is 13th in Social Policy and Practice, 16th in physics, 17th in mathematics, 20th in chemistry, 21st in biology, 13th in history, 16th in history, and 18th in computer science. There are plenty of non-top 10 departments here, Penn doesn't deserve a top 10 ranking without Wharton. </p>
<p>
[quote]
But wait! Allow me to deliver the coup de grace to your sophistry and insanity in general. You directly contradicted yourself, the perennial sign of a bad argument.</p>
<p>First you wrote that I had the option to transfer in Wharton:
Quote:
you can either:</p>
<p>A) transfer to Wharton
You soon followed this with the following statement:
Quote:
as a transfer, you're ineligible to transfer between schools.
I'd say you've lost it. If not your sanity, then at the very least this argument.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That wasn't really an argument at all. I was making pointing out how pathetic and prestige driven your intentions are. </p>
<p>Second, I was quoting from the Penn website, and correcting myself, so that's not contradiction.</p>
<p>You're paying 50,000 dollars per year for an Ivy League liberal arts education and you can't identify an argument or a contradiction properly? I thought you transferred from Cornell because you couldn't stand the way mispronouncing 'yea' in Shakesperean Literature. Well, if I were at Penn, I would transfer out because I couldn't stand to study with someone who can't identify an argument or a contradiction. </p>
<p>Anyway, that's besides the point. Why does Penn not allow external transfers to transfer between schools? Because they want to prevent people from backdooring into Wharton. They know Wharton is more desirable and prestigious than their other schools.</p>
<p>
<p>To reiterate: I am not an engineering student. Penn's focus is not engineering. Therefore, I do not care how crappy the engineering is. Yale's engineering is terrible, also; are you going to tell me that Cornell is better? Yes, you might be an engineer. This has no bearing on my argument, however, which is about the strength of CAS.</p>
<p>So, let's see: I've proved to you that CAS quality is almost the same as Wharton, that its departments are just as good, and that Penn itself deserves its top-10 berth with or without the help of Wharton's business departments.</p>
<p>Let me guess: your next jab will be at... the engineering again? I truly can't imagine.
You stated:
[quote]
And Penn's departments are all extremely strong across all levels, with the notable exceptions of math and mechanical engineering.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I provided a contradiction to your argument. Take notes, that's what a real contradiction looks like. Maybe next time, you'll be able to identify one properly.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But wait! Allow me to deliver the coup de grace to your sophistry and insanity in general. You directly contradicted yourself, the perennial sign of a bad argument.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Whoa! Big words! I'm intimidated!</p>
<p>Muertea , you got owned. Maybe you can come on up to Ithaca sometime and I'll teach you how a contradiction, or an argument works since you clearly have no understanding of how such matters work, even with an Ivy League liberal arts degree. I always knew they didn't teach squat in those liberal arts programs :) </p>
<p>good night folks!</p>
<p>Actually, this final response thoroughly PWNZ you to hell.</p>
<p>First off, what you wrote is not a contradiction. You're not a words-person, though, and I can appreciate that.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Why does Penn not allow external transfers to transfer between schools? Because they want to prevent people from backdooring into Wharton.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Penn prevents people from transferring twice because they want to stop students from switching from their school of continuing eduction (LPS) into any of their legitimate undergraduate programs. Columbia has precisely the same safeguards with its School of General Studies. It has nothing to do with Wharton, and you are incorrect.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Penn is... 13th in history, 16th in history
[/quote]
</p>
<p>As usual, more brilliance from Brown Man. While "history" in general may be 13th, Penn Colonial and US History are ranked 3rd and 7th, respectively. This is nit picking, however, and a thoroughly unintelligent manner of argument. Which brings me to your next nonsense:</p>
<p>
[quote]
There are plenty of non-top 10 departments here, Penn doesn't deserve a top 10 ranking without Wharton.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>... You could only list 8. And those are literally the weakest departments. Almost everything else, aside from engineering, is top 10. The list showed that, the NRC rankings from 1995 showed that, the new NRC rankings will continue to show that (NRC rankings come out only once every 13 years). Only a handful of other universities can boast departments as good as Penn's. Actually, reading your post, I thought that you might have gone insane. You list 8 departments, and then pronounce Penn out of contention of the top-10 without Wharton? You must have almost no experience with grad school rankings.</p>
<p>So here it is: the big guns. Or just gun, really. Hopefully it will blow away your ignorance: The Center for Measuring University Performance ranks Penn in its top cluster of research universities in the nation, tied with Columbia, Harvard, MIT and Stanford.
Feel free to check this out here: <a href="http://mup.asu.edu/research2006.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://mup.asu.edu/research2006.pdf</a></p>
<p>If this doesn't convince you that Penn is top-10 (or 5 even) with or without WHARTON of all things, then you might be brain-dead, and I will refuse to waste anymore time with you without proof that you are not in fact a vegetable.</p>
<p>So, what does CAS offer that's so incredibly good? It is one of the only undergraduate programs on earth that offers an extremely flexible academic program, a confluence of the best research departments to study from, and a peer group of some of the most talented students in America and from around the world.</p>
<p>I'm going to preempt the last challenge I could see you making.</p>
<p>Penn doesn't have the best students.
According to 3 separate rankings - Washington Monthly selectivity ranking, US News selectivity ranking, and The Princeton Review's 10 toughest schools to get into - Penn is ranked 7th, 6th, and 7th respectively. Cornell, in contrast, is ranked 21st by Washington Monthly, and not at all by the others, which stop after 10. These numbers reflect SAT averages, class rank, and acceptance rate; of the three of these, the only one affected by Wharton is the SAT average, and even this is only by 14 points. Penn's CAS deserves just as much credit in the rankings.</p>
<p>There's really no need to defend Penn... It's definitely a world-class institution. To claim that Penn's greatness is solely attributed to Wharton is ridiculous. It just depends on what you want. Besides, CAS is amazing in its own right.</p>
<p>That is correct, hallowarts. I just pwned Brown Man, as he'll soon see.</p>
<p>I couldn't resist...</p>
<p>
[quote]
So, what does CAS offer that's so incredibly good? It is one of the only undergraduate programs on earth that offers an extremely flexible academic program, a confluence of the best research departments to study from, and a peer group of some of the most talented students in America and from around the world.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Flexibility? Talented Peers? Research? Brown University offers all of this as well. This is not unique to Penn. Hell, even University of Rochester offers flexibility, and research. Dartmouth's D-plan offers all of this as well. Cornell's college scholar program enables students to do just what you mentioned. This is not unique to Penn. There you have it, I have contradicted one of your claims again.This is what we call a contradiction (in case you still don't understand). </p>
<p>
[quote]
First off, what you wrote is not a contradiction. You're not a words-person, though, and I can appreciate that.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You wrote:
I wrote:
</p>
<p>My claim contradicts your claim. Therefore, we have a contradiction here. Need I make it any clearer?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Penn prevents people from transferring twice because they want to stop students from switching from their school of continuing eduction (LPS) into any of their legitimate undergraduate programs. Columbia has precisely the same safeguards with its School of General Studies. It has nothing to do with Wharton, and you are incorrect.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If they wanted to prevent students from switching from their school of continuing eduction (LPS) into any of their legitimate undergraduate programs, they would just do this directly. Why prevent all students from transferring into a different college?</p>
<p>
[quote]
There's really no need to defend Penn...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Tell that to insecure Muerte</p>
<p>
[quote]
It's definitely a world-class institution.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree, I honestly just want to p1ss Muerte off.</p>
<p>
[quote]
To claim that Penn's greatness is solely attributed to Wharton is ridiculous.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is not exactly what was claimed. "Penn owe's a good deal of its greatness to Wharton" and "Penn's other programs are not at the same level of Wharton" is more along the lines of what was claimed.</p>
<p>
[quote]
According to 3 separate rankings - Washington Monthly selectivity ranking, US News selectivity ranking, and The Princeton Review's 10 toughest schools to get into - Penn is ranked 7th, 6th, and 7th respectively. Cornell, in contrast, is ranked 21st by Washington Monthly, and not at all by the others, which stop after 10.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Once again, I could care less, as I was accepted to Penn as a high schooler (and you weren't).</p>
<p>"That is correct, hallowarts. I just pwned Brown Man"
Dream on.</p>
<p>Alright Muerte, it's been good, I hope you can make some friends so that you get your mind off this rankings nonsense. Penn's known as the social Ivy for a reason. Make some friends to get your mind off college rankings. And get f'd up once in a while. I'm out. Peace</p>
<p>
[quote]
Once again, I could care less, as I was accepted to Penn as a high schooler (and you weren't).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I didn't apply to Engineering. Had I done so, I have no doubt I would have been accepted (female, 2250 SAT, 770 chem, 760 math iic).</p>
<p>
[quote]
"Penn owe's a good deal of its greatness to Wharton" and "Penn's other programs are not at the same level of Wharton" is more along the lines of what was claimed.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Still sooo incorrect, as NRC, US News, et al departmental rankings have shown again and again and again...</p>
<p>
[quote]
I agree, I honestly just want to p1ss Muerte off.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Honestly, I kind of felt the same way about you :)</p>
<p>I'm a good-looking girl, we should make babies some time and see what happens.</p>
<p>
[quote]
'm just going to state my boilerplate view of Cornell:
1)Absolutely top-notch departments in almost every field. Just look at NRC rankings.
2) SOME kids are verrrry smart. These are almost uniformly engineers and most Arts & Sciences kids.
3) A lot of other people are earth-shatteringly dull or outright stupid. This can be upsetting and alarming during your first semester. Examples range from watching students pronounce Shakespeare's "yea" as "yeah," seeing them say that Brazilians speak Spanish, or studying with a girl who's getting a C in intro to sociology.</p>
<p>So, why was I paying 45k a year to share my future reputation with the idiots who would be manning the counter at McDonald's in 4 years?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree completely. But if you don't commend every single Cornell student as a Rhodes Scholar and a future NObel Prize winner, many on this board get miffed. The level of stupidity was, at time, downright astounding. 3 out of 4 of my recitation work group didn't understand a concept that had been gone over in FOUR different classes prior to that semester. One girl in my expository writing class, and I'm not exaggerating, wrote at the level of an advanced SEVENTH grader.</p>
<p>Thanks, dontno. Obviously some of them are Rhodes Scholar material, but a great many of them... are not.</p>
<p>Again.. there is diversity here, the stats for individual colleges are published for all to evaluate. In the classroom, beyond two university-wide required freshman seminars, I was mostly in classes with people from my own colleges. And I thought the people in those classes were plenty smart.</p>
<p>I probably wouldn't have been admitted to several of the colleges that had lower average stats than I had. Nor would I have done well in a number of the programs of study they offer.</p>
<p><a href="http://mup.asu.edu/research2006.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://mup.asu.edu/research2006.pdf</a></p>
<p>Your big guns link rated the University of Minnesota 2 clusters above Princeton...</p>
<p>judging from your logic, I can see which school you would rather attend.</p>