I'm not really ivy material, but I'd like to be chanced for Cornell..

Colleges and Universities A-Z Cornell University
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<p>muerteapablo - I am not that old - didn't go to school in the 70s. I am no friend of yours. If you were to meet me it would Mrs. ___. You would be surprised how plucked in I am with what's going on with the college scene, I do not mean these silly numbers you are spitting out, I mean about the social scene. As someone who is paying full fare for my daughter, I know all the pros and cons of going to each of those top tier schools. How she ultimately decided on Cornell is related to the career she is interested in pursuing someday - finance - that's with input from family and friends. </p>

<p>Assuming you were correct it's 9 points apart, that's 9% difference between Columbia and Penn, since when does that become exactly 50-50 split? We are splitting hair between 18% and16% admit, and you don't think 9% is big (is that new math)?</p>

<p>muerteapablo - I am usually not this harsh with young people. If you were my kid I would tell you to stop memorizing all of these stupid numbers, go out on a date, or just get drunk with some friends like some normal kids (I think my daughter is celebrating end of rush with a few hundred of her closest friends right now). The hostility you have on this board with people you don't know is not healthy.</p>

<p>CB - thanks for saying that about my D. She is rather talented and special.</p>

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<p>Our D was given a full ride to a very nice LAC that had very good connection to Wall Street. We had to do a lot of soul searching to decide whether it was worth it to spend 50,000 a year out of pocket. It was not a decision made lightly. Contract schools "drag down" Cornell's stats, may even dilute some of its prestige, but at the same time it was also one of the main reasons our D chose Cornell.</p>

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may even dilute some of its prestige

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<p>oldfort, Contract colleges enhance Cornell's reputation in certain parts of the world, maybe not in the U.S. due to negative perception of "public" schools. Keep in mind that CALS is quite famous in Asia.</p>

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<p>Just so everyone knows, I'm posting here because I was re-directed from a thread a Cornell user posted on the Penn site bashing muerteapablo that linked to this thread.</p>

<p>oldfort: Why are you talking about Columbia cross-admit rates? We aren't even talking about Columbia! That school has tanked recently as I've read many articles about the absurd affirmative-action at that school. I personally know about an URM that had a low 20's ACT, but was accepted to Columbia (rejected Penn). That's an isolated example to be sure, but at least in my book, that puts Columbia a few notches down. Second of all, you are a very contradictory person! You attack people for attacking other schools, and then you make a back-handed remark about Penn. It's beyond you why someone would want to do undergrad business? Because business is quite useful, even off of Wall Street. If you want to do a lot in developing countries, business would be a very good degree to pursue. You could run a non-profit, start your own company, or even go make a lot of money and then donate it! There are many reasons why someone would want to get a business, and it's fine for it to be beyond you why someone else would want to do it, but don't use it as an argument against Penn. The world's richest man and the largest single private donor in history started out at Wharton (later transferred). He sure does a lot of good with his business.</p>

<p>It also begs the question why you brought up a "LAC with connections to Wall Street."</p>

<p>And to say you wouldn't pay for your daughter to go to Penn? Why? If my daughter got into any great school and she wanted to go, I'd be behind her if I was financially able (you're paying for Cornell). There is no denying that Wharton brings Penn up a notch, but there is also no denying that Penn has a very very good program at the three other schools. Again, I really don't understand why you would decide for your daughter. It does sound like she's happiest at Cornell, though. So I guess no harm.</p>

<p>I have nothing against Cornell which is why I said nothing against Cornell. Once you get to HYPPCCBD level, there isn't a lot of room to make fun of other schools. All of these schools are very prestigious, and to even get into any of them is great.</p>

<p>The OP also probably wants his thread back...</p>

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<p>oldfort-
your husband and you collectively ruled out a number of colleges based on YOUR preferences? That is... really sad. I'm glad your daughter is happy but I would be infuriated with my parents if they denied me the chance to go to a school that I was accepted to.
I think you need to take a look at yourself and your daughter, and allow her to live the life she chooses. I'm glad Cornell was for her, but it would have really sucked if it was not and she had wanted to go to a school that you and your husband would not allow her to attend...</p>

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<p>p.s. muertopueblo- Cornellians are not going to agree with you. Stop posting here even if it is so, so tempting.</p>

<p>Cornellians- help out the OP and stop bashing Penn. I realize muertopueblo probably instigated it, but if you ignore her from here on out you can get back on topic</p>

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You were in a contract school. Contract schools admit based on fit, not on intelligence.

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<p>Noope as Cayuga said I was in engineering. The level of stupidity there was mind boggling as well. One person in my section didn't know an equation that the previous semester we had spent almost half the semester studying. Another person about halfway through a physics course still didn't understand what a separable equation was (the entire class was based on the concept) and then confused astronomy and astrology. Of course, as meurto said, I met many extremely intelligent people as well (interestingly most of them were foreign born).</p>

<p>Also, it seems as if you concede the point that many admits don't pass the intellectual standard. As you state, intelligence is not the main criteria of admission, thus many dumb people, who otherwise have good fit, get in. </p>

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Yea, my dad went to princeton, and one of his friends from his graduating class works as a piano mover

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<p>Do you understand the concept of an average?</p>

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But he's smoking something if he doesn't think that there is such stupidity at every school in the country.

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<p>Of course that type of stupidity exists at other elite colleges, especially amongst affirmaitve action admits, athletes, and extremely wealthy legacies. But as meurto pointed out, it's the ubiquity of that stupidity that is irksome. The rate of utter stupidity (well relative to what many consider the Ivy League standard) amongst Cornell students is higher than that of Penn and far higher than that of HYP.</p>

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<p>I brought up Columbia because muerteapalo was trying to make a comparison between Columbia and Penn, claiming 9% difference is no big deal, but at the same time splitting hair with a few % difference between Penn and Cornell, or what he/she perceives to be a lower ranking school. I think if you read my posts very carefully, there was never a back handed remark about Penn. At my D's school students with similar stats get into Penn, Duke or Cornell, but it takes a bit more to get into HPYS and Columbia. </p>

<p>Trying to figure out which school is best for you is more than just numbers. It has to do with surrounding city, social life, life after college... In our view, Penn was not worth it due to the location, same goes for Yale. As far as a school's claim to fame is its undegrad business school also applies to Cornell's AEM. I do not value it, and there are many of my colleagues/friends that also feel the same way. I see it more for graduate school, after a good solid liberal arts education, but that's my very personal view. I brought up a "LAC with connections to Wall Street" because that's what my D wants to do after graduation. If that's the only goal, she could have gone to that LAC and we could have saved a lot of money. If we were just concerned with ranking, Duke would have been a better choice. In our view Cornell was able to offer her a much better college experience and give us most bang for our money. Does it mean Penn and Duke are not great schools? No.</p>

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<p>Oh. My. God. I thought people at Ivies were generally smart, but this argument is laughable...Hahah, my college has the #6 program in ___ but yours is only ranked #14!!! What?! Do you think there's hidden secrets about English Literature or Biochemistry that are only taught at School A that School B doesn't know about? My gosh...I honestly think you can get a good education at any top 50 college, it comes down to what kind of atmosphere you prefer. Does anyone really care about rankings to this extent? I mean, I have friends at all 8 Ivies, at technical colleges, at community colleges, in tiny unheard of LAC's and densely populated state schools, we all get along and I don't think we've ever discussed college rankings...I don't treat my Yale buddy any differently than my friend at Landmark College (for people with learning disabilities)...some people need to seriously pull their heads out of their asses about prestige, and take a look at the real world, where most people don't even go to college, let alone a private college, let alone an elite Ivy. I mean, what's wrong with admitting that Penn AND Cornell AND Columbia (don't know how it got into this, but it did) are all good schools? Maybe because I go to a college ranked significantly below the Ivies (where, by the way, I am getting a perfectly good education), I can step back and see reality.</p>

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<p>Let's just say that Penn and Cornell are equally prestigous and are different fits for different people. I'm not sure why we can't get people to agree on this simple fact.</p>

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<p>I completely agree with stargazerlilies in that you don't have to go to an IVY or any other top tier institution to get a good education. My sister goes to the college of new jersey and she has friends in these top notch schools who are learning the same things she's learning, but she doesn't have to put up with people in her class who get a kick out of feeling they're more special than the next guy who's in a less prestigious school. It's all very sad and this whole thread has been a perfect illustration of how prestige in general can really get people bent out of shape. It is a shame, and I'm sure there are a lot of people like muertapueblo at these top universities who feel the same way she does, and it has made me rethink where i want to go to school. Although an ivy degree makes it easier to get a job, those of use who haven't gotten into college yet must ask ourselves if it's worth living with people at these schools who are prestigewhores and can't stand being told that another college is more prestigious than theirs. But I'm not saying that ALL students at these schools are like this but there is an obnoxious few who make a lot of noise.</p>

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<p>This thread needs to be shut down. And a lot of us probably need professional help if we're not already receiving it. Myself included.</p>

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<p>If it were my decision, I would deem this thread concluded at the end of stargazerlilies' post.</p>

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<p>God forbid people strive to be successful and, in doing so, classify attending a prestigious university as a worthwhile goal.</p>

<p>I think many are missing the point that meurto had made. I'm not sure that the US News rankings are her main concern. Rather, she's wary of sharing her reputation with people that she considered unworthy of being her peer group. She believes that Penn students are in general more intellectually able (especially when considering the lowest tier students). </p>

<p>I loved my time at Cornell despite considering many of my classmates as unstuiable for an Ivy League education. As far as an education, I can't imagine any school offers a better one. Some people have different priorities. If meurto wants the name recognition or prestige of her alma mater as a confirmation of her intelligence (which in my mind makes some sense), then I don't fault her.</p>

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<p>About the piano mover guy:
I understand the concept of averages. I just thought it was a funny anecdote. People in CC tend to see degrees from HYP as tickets to success and luxury, and they aren't... This is for another argument though.</p>

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<p>Thank you, dontno. That is precisely the point I was making. Cornell offers the same quality of education as any Ivy League school. It is simply the students that are often incomparable (although many are).</p>

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<p>End of thread, please.</p>

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<p>I, for one, feel I do understand, but I don't think this concern was necessarily fully warranted.</p>

<p>1) My impression is there is substantially less "incomparability", with respect to programs of study that are also comparable. There are many students at Cornell pursuing courses of studies, in separate colleges, that these other universities simply don't offer. Most of these other programs are top dogs in their respective fields. But when comparing, one should compare apples to apples.</p>

<p>2) This is where my perspective differs most, perhaps, from muertapablo's: I feel that, as far as reputation goes, informed evaluators do in fact compare apples to apples. The physical presence of other people, studying diverse fields in separate colleges, had no negative impact on the reputation effect of my degree that I'm aware of. I can't imagine being considered for a grad program in physics and having an evaluator say, " well this candidate got 800 GRE, 3.8 from Cornell, and studied in the research group of Nobel Laureate David Lee, who gave him an outstanding recommendation. But Cornell also has these specialty colleges, and some of those students are not identical based on matriculating SAT scores, so we're going to take this other guy from Penn. Because we like Penn's College of Nursing better".</p>

<p>I did not get the impression during job recruiting,in my professional career, or in hiring, that engineering recruiters would rather have taken students from Columbia or Penn than Cornell's engineers, because Cornell offers a (premier, by the way) program of study in Hotel administration; in a separate college. It is just completely irrelevant to them.</p>

<p>Nor can I envision a Hum Ec grad applying for a job as a nutritionist, and having the interviewer say" well you are highly qualified,from the nation's premier program in this field, but Cornell also has these nerdy engineers and weird architects, so maybe we won't like you, so we'll take this other person." </p>

<p>Of course, if the students in actually comparable programs are weaker, and that is the concern, that is a more legitimate point to consider. In this case, the stats should speak for themselves. Various universities indeed differ in this particular, and students can fairly evaluate that. If only the data is made available. </p>

<p>To this last point, dontno has a perspective which I'm not sure I agree with:
"Noope as Cayuga said I was in engineering. The level of stupidity there was mind boggling as well. "
"The rate of utter stupidity (well relative to what many consider the Ivy League standard) amongst Cornell students is higher than that of Penn .."</p>

<p>Again, it is my contention that "level of stupidity" is most reasonably considered when comparing comparable programs, offered in comparable colleges.</p>

<p>dontno, you must be some pretty sharp person. But as far as the implications you are making, do you have some data to show that the range of talents in the student body of Cornell's engineering college is materially different, or lower, than at Penn's Engineering College? Even if you did, I can pretty much assure you it has no negative impact on the reputation of Cornell's engineers. But I'd be curious to see it, if you have some information to back up this particular point of your argument.</p>

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That is precisely the point I was making. Cornell offers the same quality of education as any Ivy League school. It is simply the students that are often incomparable (although many are).

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<p>There are 14,000 students on East Hill. If you don't think that 4,000 of them are directly comparable to what you would find at Dartmouth, the 6,000 you would find at Brown, or the 8,000 you would find at non-Wharton Penn, then you are introducing a pretty large subjective bias into your considerations. The world will naturally look pretty different when you introduce your own biases into the equation. And as we've seen in your life story, you did have a considerable amount of anti-Cornell bias before even stepping foot on campus.</p>

<p>You are right, though. A lot of students at Cornell are incomparable to what you would find at the other Ivies. Last time I checked the other schools don't have programs in architecture, food science, nutrition, animal science, human development, arbitration, agriculture, rural development, or horticulture. When Penn decides to introduce these programs, call me up, and then we can compare the quality of students in these programs.</p>

<p>What is so galling about your attitude, muerte, is that you try to play all nice immediately after making ridiculous statements such as this:</p>

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So, why was I paying 45k a year to share my future reputation with the idiots who would be manning the counter at McDonald's in 4 years?

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<p>Imagine if I went on the Penn boards and went off about how in my experience Penn students are nothing but anti-intellectual, incurious, and pampered students -- sloven materialists who only care about their career opportunities. </p>

<p>I do hope you are able to learn a little bit more tact.</p>

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dontno, you must be some pretty sharp person. But as far as the implications you are making, do you have some data to show that the range of talents in the student body of Cornell's engineering college is materially different, or lower, than at Penn's Engineering College?

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<p>Dontno is a pretty bright person, but he tends to exhibit a condescension towards others who might hold a different opinion or experience than his own. Frankly, it's not the first time I've seen it in a Cornell engineer, and it certainly won't be the last. Unfortunately it doesn't appear that many of these schools teach tact.</p>

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<p>My issue is not with his condescension but the degree to which his implied remarks have any basis.</p>

<p>I've already addressed the notion that somehow other colleges you don't attend are highly relevant; largely, IMO, no.</p>

<p>So then we go to the comparable colleges that you actually do attend.
dontno says that many Cornell's engineering students did not measure up to Ivy standards. So let's look at standards for Penn's engineering students. Penn is in the Ivy League, no? And then we'll see the degree to which his assertion is valid.</p>

<p>The mid- 50% SATs of Cornell's engineering college entrants last year were
640-730V, 720-790 M. (Meaning 25% scored over 790 on math..)</p>

<p>So could he just put down the same data for entrants to Penn's college of Engineering to substantiate his implication that Cornell engineers don't measure up, as compared to Penn's engineers.</p>

<p>The mid- 50% for Arts & sciences entrants were 650-740v, 670-770M. There are schools where the distribution range runs higher than this, to be sure; though not that many. If someone feels they want to associate themselves as a datum sampled from a higher distribution, and they've found one, so be it. But get the respective distributions right.</p>

<p>BTW, where is this same data for Penn's Arts & Sciences ?</p>

<p>The data is the data, if it is simply put to light of day no further discussion is required. People can then conclude for themselves how much difference there is in this parameter.</p>