<p>There's no need to be rude to her for having an opinion.</p>
<p>There is a need to be rude when she espouses opinions that are clearly wrong.</p>
<p>Affirmative action is useful, yes, but it really tramples all over what it means to be American. </p>
<p>I think that in the end, it really just hurts the people it is supposed to help. When an URM goes to look for a job, he might be interviewed by a guy that just assumed the URM got into his/her university based on skin color alone. </p>
<p>If universities ended these policies, I would almost guarantee that the real-world value of education would increase for minorities quite a bit.</p>
<p>"There is a need to be rude when she espouses opinions that are clearly wrong."</p>
<p>hahahahahahaha. That's so token, 'my opinion is the only reasonable opinion.'</p>
<p>Sure dude. You think master debaters and pundits and big political figures walk around trying to be reasonable?</p>
<p>They don't, because it doesn't work.</p>
<p>
[quote]
he might be interviewed by a guy that just assumed the URM got into his/her university based on skin color alone.
[/quote]
Not if he/she graduates with a high GPA.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Affirmative action is useful, yes, but it really tramples all over what it means to be American.
[/quote]
You forgot that the Supreme Court sided with Michigan in this case.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If universities ended these policies
[/quote]
Laws like Proposal 2 only affect public institutions in that state. Private universities like Duke just get another advantage going after the hot commodities, 'college-bound, college-prepared minorities'. Hoedown is right that this is just a game of 'supply and demand'.</p>
<p>Why are they hot commodities?</p>
<p>lol. My post got deleted.</p>
<p>Jenny, if you didn't see it, that's probably a good thing. But please, just remember how lucky you are, how truly blessed your life is, before coming in here and complaining about how you're "only" going to Duke. I would've given my right arm to go to Duke.</p>
<p>first off, I'm a michigan resident. I will apply to uofm next year. 3.8 gpa and 31 act. </p>
<p>The original post makes me pity your ignorance</p>
<p>Jenny 790 you need to get over yourself
Besides you heard the U of M responce to the affirmative action vote
also affirmative action is something of the past for use in the 60s and 70's for the most part people are a lot more open minded now and affirmative action is no longer needed, it was succeeding only in making things unbalanced the other way
good ridance!
no jk but seriously get over yourself</p>
<p>Actually, a little history lesson:</p>
<p>Back after the civil war, the 'radical republicans', as they were called, implemented (or tried to) programs to help raise blacks up above the poverty line in the south. They tried all sorts of measures, lots of which worked. They also helped blacks vote without paying money, having to own property, have literary exams, etc. Sounds great on the surface, right?</p>
<p>Actually, some have argued that the movement really destroyed any hope of seamless integration in the south. Many of the 1960's civil rights reforms were the direct answers to a lot of the problems southern whites had been causing because they felt wronged, largely by the radical republican effort.</p>
<p>So, I wonder then, is the best thing to try and force integration on the people, or is it to gradually allow society to fix itself instead of forcing a mindset on people that they clearly do not want?</p>
<p>I think that proposal 2 has overwhelmingly convinced me that reform needs to make sense, and if it doesn't people will not support it.</p>
<p>Impress me with all sorts of scholarly studies and effects of affirmative action, but the bottom line is that the public doesn't want it -- and therefore it should not be done.</p>
<p>Jenny, realize this, and you will be happier. Don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone hates black people because of proposal 2. Doing so would be the equivalent of crying racist every time an ad for white chocolate comes on TV. Just be happy that you are comfortable in life, realize that politics is better when the people have their opinions implemented, and think long and hard about why affirmative action failed in Michigan.</p>
<p>Please, just don't give us crap about how affirmative action is right. I think we have effectively destroyed that topic.</p>
<p>Also keep in mind that I am an admitted Umich student; I am not bitter or anything like that. I just want you, as a person, to know that people don't keep their heads in the clouds and support these abstract social agendas universities love.</p>
<p>i love how all the white posters here and all the white people i talk to about AA say it isn't necessary anymore. that makes me laugh. if it isn't necessary why are black people underrepresented at the vast majority of colleges nationwide? why do black people make less in salary nationwide? are we intellectually inferior beings? it very much sounds like you all are on the edge of saying that. here is a little something i wrote in response to a facebook post from another ignorant white student at my highly competitive math & science center, where I am the only black senior.</p>
<p>Affirmative action is the only way to equal opportunity in a world that is set up to glorify the white male. Affirmative Action existed because we live in a country that was built on the backs of slaves that we not allowed to read or write. And yes public education is slanted against minority students. Have you ever witnessed the what public education looks like in predominatly black cities. Why don't you take a visit to some Detroit public schools and ask yourself the question, "Is this equality?" Black people need Affirmative Action because they start of at a disadvantage. White people are born with privelege and resources that black people are not privied to. No matter how much effort we put forth as a race we cannot achieve the same heights as our white counterparts because of discrimination and poverty inflicted on us by whites. How is it equal for black people to be measured at the same standards as whites when we have less resources to meet these standards all of our lives. White people have been going to college for hundreds of years in large numbers whereas for blacks this is generally a recent development. White people grow up in households that make more money and are more education oriented because their parents are well educated. Most of my family can barely afford to keep their electricity and phone bills paid and you expect people like them to excel the same way that white kids do in a country that is built for whites to succeed and blacks to fail. Affirmative action existed to correct the discrimination that currently goes on in college admissions. LESS QUALIFIED BLACK STUDENTS WERE NOT BEING ACCEPTED OVER ACADEMICALLY SUPERIOR WHITE STUDENTS BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN. Without affirmative action an admission counselor would be faced with a decision between two academically equal students, one being white and one being black, and based in their prejudices a huge majority of the time the white student would be chosen. With affirmative action the black student would be chosen in cases like this until the black population of the school more closely reflected that of the population of the state. Nothing should be taken from black students who were chosen based on affirmative action. These students are still very talented individuals. It is only the fact that minorities are less priveleged than whites that creates a disparity between their academic statistics. I don't expect you to understand any of what I am trying to communicate to you seeing that you grew up a sheltered, priveleged white male who still believes that if you work hard everything will just fall perfectly into place. But, consider this, you are a black child. One of your parents is a drug addict on the streets, another is a recovering alcoholic, you have one sister who has four kids, and another with three and they both started having kids before they made it out of high school. Your brother is in jail your aunt is out of work and so is your uncle who is also an alcoholic. You have two cousins your age, 17, with children and another who sells drugs, and you are expected to meet the same standards as white kids who have more money, more stable home environments, and have the inherent privelege of white skin. You are expected to be a positive example for your entire community. You are expected to succeed with no role model to guide you, no one to support you, not much money to help you pay for college, and no room for mistakes. You're trying hard in school and all the while you have your black friends calling you a sell out for being studious and your white friends won't respect you as a black man because you can speak well and you don't wear your pants at your knees. This is my life Tibble. Thats what I have to deal with everyday. So don't tell me this is equality because its not. not even close.</p>
<p>epsilon9090, I hope you actually hear and listen to people like kamscnerd.</p>
<p>kamscnerd, good luck to you.</p>
<p>You think circumstances like your own only exist for black individuals?</p>
<p>Why isn't AA based on socioeconomic conditions....</p>
<p>I know 2 black familys, both parents doctors who make wayy more money than my parents. Tell me exactly how they are underpriviledged?</p>
<p>
[quote]
i love how all the white posters here and all the white people i talk to about AA say it isn't necessary anymore. that makes me laugh.
[/quote]
I'm hispanic. It's not necessary anymore. Did I make you laugh?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Are we intellectually inferior beings?
[/quote]
No, and that's why we believe in treating you as equals.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Consider this, you are a black child. One of your parents is a drug addict on the streets, another is a recovering alcoholic, you have one sister who has four kids, and another with three and they both started having kids before they made it out of high school. Your brother is in jail your aunt is out of work and so is your uncle who is also an alcoholic. You have two cousins your age, 17, with children and another who sells drugs.
[/quote]
If I was Jon Stewart right now, I'd be staring into the camera with a dazed look of disbelief. To characterize that as being the average life of a black person in America is one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard, not to mention incredibly racist. Seriously, man, get a grip.<br>
Also your notion that all white people are priveleged is really misguided. What about Asians? Do you consider them to be priveleged? Is that why they're kicking our butts in academics?</p>
<p>The rest of your post talks about how black people are underpriveleged. You argue that because they're poor, they deserve a leg up. Fine, that's how socio-economic based admissions (still being used) helps us.</p>
<p>right on hdavid</p>
<p>Reform is an interesting point--you didn't bring it up in quite the way I mean it, but it reminded me...</p>
<p>The frustrating thing about Prop 2 is not that the proposal said "find a program that makes more sense." It said, "All AA programs are BANNED." I think a lot of people who think AA has merit also have arguments with some of the ways it is put into practice. They'd like to see institutions improve their AA policies. Prop 2 is like a sledgehammer "fix." It doesn't matter if someone comes up with a program that more people would find reasonable or equitable. If Prop 2 has its way, those are off the table permanently.</p>
<p>I think a pronouncement like "forget scholarship--if the public wants/doesn't want something, that's the last word" is pretty bold. How far do you take that? How much do you want to turn over to the public's feelings without regard to research and scholarship?</p>
<p>Hoedown, your last point is a valid one. The public is not always right. Far from it. The public voted in Hitler; the public supported apartheid; the public elected George Bush (just kidding about the last one; the electoral college did that.)</p>
<p>The problem with research and scholarship, in this case, is that no research or scholarship supports affirmative action. Research shows that affirmative action really doesn't do much to help URMs succeed. Blacks and hispanics are still graduating at lower rates, still graduating with lower GPAs, and still underperforming their white and asian peers. There is no published article that I've ever seen that makes a clear and overwhelming case for affirmative action.</p>
<p>look, the people of michigan obviously decided and the majority ruled that proposal 2 was a good idea. hell yes its a good idea. end this affirmative action bullcrap. i cant believe anyone would have the audacity to say that people who backed proposal 2 want to see blacks leave michigan. that is just an ignorant thing to say. u of m lets in way too many underqualified black students because of affirmative action and most of them cant make the bar when it comes to the classwork. now im sure im going to be called all kinds of names after this post, but that a very typical defense mechanism that backers of AA love to use. survival of the fittest is the best way to go, it's not possible to solve everyones problems and try to give every single person an equal opportunity. if you are from the inner city and are underprivledged then its time to work and get the job done. it is possible to do it without AA becuase many people have. proposal 2 was a success in michigan and passed with a nice margin so lets drop the arguement becuase its not gonna change anytime soon. </p>
<p>i am white. i am rich. i am a republican. i am a backer of proposal 2.</p>
<p>i am not a racist.</p>
<p>Duke.Lacrosse.Team.</p>
<p>i never said that every URM lives a life of poverty or is disadvantaged. that isn't the case. but since we are dealing with majorities, the majority of black people make less than the majority of white people. the majority of black people are less educated than the majority of white people. those are the facts. period. Knowing these facts what can we do to fix them. Nothing. Why??? because proposal 2 banned the possibility of a fair and equal Michigan.</p>