<p>I think that the University of Michigan's interpretation of AA was unfortunate. It is like they were desperate to bring in URMs at whatever the cost and that generally meant accepting students who could not cope with the academic intensity and expectations of a school like Michigan. That's why white and Asian students were graduating at a rate of 90% whereas URMs were graduating at a rate of roughly 70%. Yes, some of those students were dropping out for financial reasons, but so were some of the white and Asian students. At the end of the day, diversity is a must, but setting up those students to fail was wring.</p>
<p>Alexandre, a 70% graduation rate can be better than a 90% graduate if those with a 70% graduation rate started with less opportunity.</p>
<p>wasabi612 you are a racist good old boy if there ever was one. hopefully you'll apply to UMich and be denied w/o AA. then maybe people like you will learn that you don't deserve a place at such a great school because you don't support a diverse America.</p>
<p>"u of m lets in way too many underqualified black students because of affirmative action and most of them cant make the bar when it comes to the classwork"</p>
<p>if most of them can't make the bar why do 70% graduate??? Sounds like UMich AA program was pretty successful to me, especially since in our country's past the graduation rate for blacks was 0% since they weren't even allowed to educate themselves.</p>
<p>What the hell is wrong with you people?</p>
<p>I still have a tough time understanding how economic conditions affect only blacks. Black people are the only ones that have brothers that deal drugs? Kamscnerd, I'll tear apart your horrible excuse for an argument when I get some more time tomorrow.</p>
<p>But in the interim, equality is equality is equality. Don't give me crap about making things better for people at a disadvantage. Disadvantages are economic, and that is it. RACE never matters in this day and age, and don't convince me of otherwise because you are dead wrong.</p>
<p>I dare any of your URMs to apply to your favorite school, but declare your race as white. You will still get in. You know why? Because YOU are not the ones AA is designed to help, yet you still take advantage of it.</p>
<p>hdavid, I would not be surprised if you totally got a full ride to umich. You know why? You are smart and your are hispanic. Does that mean you deserve the money? Of course not. But people like you are the major benefactors, and I'm glad you realize it because it is the truth.</p>
<p>Prepare for more of the truth you won't hear anywhere else tomorrow. All you AAers, if I attend Umich, be prepared for some heated debate.</p>
<p>Personally I think UM needs to move on. UM is going to waste the next several years on AA, and in all likelihood, will fail.</p>
<p>UM should move on to accomplishing other things. Mary Sue has already said that the school will continue outreach programs in the inner-cities of Michigan. OK. Do that and stop wasting my money on fighting Prop 2, accomplish some things to better the education of students already here.</p>
<p>dstark, I firmly believe in providing chances to those with fewer opportunities, but not at the cost of reason. </p>
<p>Kamscnerd, a 70% (more like 65% at Michigan) is not "successful"...it is disgraceful. I'd be fine with 80%, but anything less is too low. It's not like Michigan doesn't know wich applicants can make it and which cannot. I strongly support all types of diversity, and would be only too proud if Michigan dmitted more URMs that could cope with the academic requirements of the University. But Michigan must stop accepting students that clearly aren't cut out for high level academics.</p>
<p>Hrm....I can see you all feel quite strongly about this particular topic. Before I go on with my opinion, I would encourage you all to read Gratz v Bollinger and Grutter v Bollinger in thier entirety. I think there is much about the use of racial preference affirmative action that you all do not know, especially at the University of Michigan.</p>
<p>Because it's fairly obvious you can't talk about this topic without first disclosing your race <em>rolls eye</em>... I am a Black Male. There...lol.</p>
<p>As far as the first post is concerned, I would respectfully ask that you re-evaluate your decision. First off, if you value diversity, you have to be willing to be the diversity every now and then. Secondly, don't go to Duke with oversized ideas of what diversity and race relations are like there. I decided not to apply to Duke specifically because of what I viewed was a poisonous racial climate...an opinion that I think has been proven true by the lacrosse team case. </p>
<p>To kamscnerd: you need to do some serious research into how AA works at the U and in general. You are allowing your passion to affect your arguements, and it causes them to lose credibility.</p>
<p>With regard to qualifications, it is undisputed that the preferences given to URMs at UM, and most other private institutions, are enormous. Gaps of 2-300 points are not uncommon between admitted White applicants and URM applicants. The U says that all students who are admitted are "qualified". This is true, because the U defines "qualified" as being able to graduate (120 credits, 2.0 GPA). The vast majority of admitted students are well beyond this standard; many URMs are not. All of this information is available in the Grutter or Gratz opinions.</p>
<p>The problem with the scenario that you put forth (imagine you are a black child etc.), besides the fact that it is vanishingly rare (the majority of URMs at UM are middle or upper-middle class), is the fact that a student like that would be deserving of preference not because of thier race, but because of their circumstance. You can substitute black for white, asian, hispanic or whatever; the circumstances make the candidate deserving of preference, not the skin color. I happen to be from an affluent white suburb in Illinois, I don't believe I particularly deserve preference, yet under your prefered system, the state should treat me no differently than the student you put forth as an example. Under the current system, I am more likely to be admitted than a white or asian student given the circumstances you described. This is wrong.</p>
<p>Regarding diversity in general. The real problem is that UM has two competing values: diversity and elitism. We maintain admission standards that disproportionately exclude URMs. If we value diversity as much as Mary Sue says we do, we could simply lower our admission standards dramatically. I, as well as I imagine most people who support preferences, would be opposed to that. Our desire to be elite trumps our desire to be diverse. This is true of nearly every elite institution. </p>
<p>To my fellow opponents of preference; stop pretending that race doesn't matter today. If your arguments do not take into account the presence of institutional racism in the US, they are seriously lacking. You have to accept reality for what it is.</p>
<p>Epsilon9090, don't be an ass.</p>
<p>KB</p>
<p>
[quote]
The majority of black people make less than the majority of white people... those are the facts.
[/quote]
Yes, perhaps those are the facts, but listen man: The University still helps out economically disadvantaged students. If in fact the majority of black students are poorer than the majority of white students, than this is the group that socio-economic "action" will still be helping.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The majority of black people are less educated than the majority of white people.
[/quote]
But why?</p>
<p>If you want to argue that black people are disadvanted by more than just economics, you've got a lot of explaining to do. Discrimination, while not totally erradicated, is negligible for most people in today's US in my opinion. If you want to argue that blacks are inherently dumber (which it seems you are), than you really have very little scientific evidence to back you up. If you want to argue its the black culture, then affirmative action is really hurting the situation. Instead of addressing their lack of emphasis on learning and getting an education, you're simply putting a bandaid on the whole issue, when intraspection is desperately needed.</p>
<p>Alexandre, you picked the number that is a satisfactory graduation rate out of thin air and arbitrarily said that number is the number needed for success.</p>
<p>If the graduation rate was 0% and now is up to 65%, that's progress. </p>
<p>Epsilon9090, there is racism all over the place. Race does matter. When you argue, be sure to use Drosselmeier's experiences and Northstarmom's experiences (posters on this bb)</p>
<p>Maybe, you saw this...
<a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061126/ap_on_re_us/police_shooting%5B/url%5D">http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061126/ap_on_re_us/police_shooting</a></p>
<p>how can you argue that discrimination is negligible for most people if you are not those people? How can you account for the experiences of others? Are you omniscient?</p>
<p>About as easily as you can argue that every single black person is a victim of discrimination...neither argument flies in its extreme.</p>
<p>i don't think anyone has made that argument here kb54010. actually i'm 100% positive that no one has.</p>
<p>
[quote]
That's why white and Asian students were graduating at a rate of 90% whereas URMs were graduating at a rate of roughly 70%. Yes, some of those students were dropping out for financial reasons, but so were some of the white and Asian students. At the end of the day, diversity is a must, but setting up those students to fail was wring.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Alexandre, you've missed the mark here. Look at the graduation gap at schools which DON'T practice affirmative action. It's still there. The gap persisted at UCB after Prop 209 passed. The gap between whites and URMs is real and it is troublesome, but it cannot be explained by the pronouncement that "URMs are set up to fail" by AA. There are other factors at work.</p>
<p>
[quote]
No matter how much effort we put forth as a race we cannot achieve the same heights as our white counterparts because of discrimination and poverty inflicted on us by whites.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Those are your words kamscnerd. You are making that argument.</p>
<p>Dstark, I did not pull out the 80% out of thin air. I just looked at the graduate rates at all repsectable universities and most of them have graduatation rates over 80%. And Michigan graduation rates for URMs hasn't changed much over the last 15 years. It has hovered around the 65% range ever since I can remember. There has been no progress. The fact remains that roughly a third of URMs admitted into Michigan aren't capable of handling the academic expectations of the University. Those students shouldn't be admitted in the first place.</p>
<p>Then Michigan needs to find others.</p>
<p>It doesn't bother me if students fail to graduate after given the opportunity.</p>
<p>Failure is better than no chance at all.</p>
<p>Dstark, what if that opportunity comes at the expense of someone who was going to graduate?</p>
<p>i just realized why aa works.</p>
<p>every black kid grows up in the ghetto and every white kid grows up in a mansion</p>
<p>us is a cumulative word. it means us as a whole not us as in every single individual. taken individually discrimination doesn't amount to much of anything but the discrimination an entire race faces can be fairly destructive.</p>