<p>NSM, I appreciate the lengthy post that list a number of differences between immigrants and local. Nobody disputes such facts. </p>
<p>Again, the issue is not that differences exist but IF such differences create a problem. What is the problem?</p>
<p>Northstarmom, yes, I do have girls. That may explain why they have been so successful. I fully understand that with boys, the situation can be totally different. I think with boys, for some reason there is more peer pressure, and excelling academically may not highly regarded among their peers. I'm not sure what the solution to this is, but certainly it should be solved well before the college level. The problem needs to be addressed in the elementary and secondary schools. I know in my suburban area, the school system is taking a hard look at this problem... I would love to see more AA boys in the advanced level high school classes.</p>
<p>So much comes down to parents.
In the mixed households, not so much anger, about the "priviledged" whites, more involvement in the school, translates to better performance at school, and more teacher involvement.
But some households, very angry, often ranting about "racist whites" in laid back Seattle. The parents will come to community meetings to complain, but not to school meetings to solve.
The kids hear them ***** at home,take those goggles when they come to school. even though we have many programs to specifically help AA students succeed, those are perceived as "elitist".
I see teachers staying after school everyday, to help whomever needs help. advanced classes are avaliable to whomever wants to do the work.
I didn't graduate from high school,I didn't attend a 4 year college, but why is it that I see education as a way out for my kids, but a black child, whose parents have a college degree doesn't?
I don't understand all the ramifications of being black- and I don't expect to get a knighthood for my volunteer work,but unless there is a real effort from all parts of a community, we are not going to move forward</p>
<p>Yet their previous principal allowed students to hand in work on the sly, because it was not "cool" to complete an assignment. That is ridiculous.</p>
<p>Indeed it is, and I think the cause of it is very complex. Go ahead and search the web for IQ and blacks and soon you will see some of the most crushing stuff possible. Now black families have been subjected to this kind of thing for as long as they can remember, and it is going on right now, not a hundred years ago, but right now. This, combined with slavery and Jim Crow, has convinced many blacks that there is just no way they can ever realistically join the American Dream.</p>
<p>I am about as solid an American as you can get. I work hard (too hard), nurture my kids, am completely faithful to my wife, in fact I have never known any other woman. I pay my bills, my taxes, and I go to church. I dont think I have said a single curse word in over twenty years. I have never smoked, never even held a cigarette in all of my life. Never had any run-in with the law not even a speeding ticket. I certainly have never done drugs. But, hey, I know that however honorable I become, there are still people all over my own country, right in my own town, who want me dead or at least kicked out of my country just because I am black.</p>
<p>I know these people have been around since the founding of the country. I know many of them fought for the Southern Confederacy, the leaders of which supported sentiments like this: The new [southern] constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutionAfrican slavery as it exists amongst usthe proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution [the civil war]. <a href="http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?documentprint=76%5B/url%5D">http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?documentprint=76</a>. I also know people even today honor this Confederacy, and that they want me, a black guy, to actually pay taxes to support the public display of symbols that represented it. My own daughter took her last SAT in a school named after a confederate scoundrel. I know my own relatives were brutally discriminated against and have told me never to trust whites because of it. So, you know, I feel I dont stand a chance of just relaxing and being an American (no-hyphens) because I know hateful folks are all over the place <a href="http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp%5B/url%5D">http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp</a>.</p>
<p>Now tons of other blacks and their kids know this too, and when they look around and see nothing but pain, suffering and fear, they know it even more. They know it firsthand and also because their parents have told them the same thing. Unlike immigrant blacks, their entire culture is profoundly defined by this. I suspect the pain is still so great, that many of us arent able to see the reality of American opportunity and the potential for genuine American acceptance. I know I cant see it.</p>
<p>Still, I am just assuming it exists because I have heard of and even seen some blacks succeeding in our country and making a difference. I never really liked George Bush, but, I gotta be honestseeing him depend on folks like Condi Rice has helped me quite a lot. I think it I too late for me. There is just no way I can ever feel like a genuine American. But Rice suggests to me that maybe my kids could feel American. I am taking a big risk because if I am wrong, then I have made my kids vulnerable to a country that is prone to condemn them for something beyond their control.</p>
<p>I think many black parents, rather than taking this sort of risk with their children, have done the reasonable thing and simply allowed their children to become as wounded as they are. The message to these kids is quite clear: Whites have called you 3/5ths of a human and you now want to be like them??? That is just crazy! Do black stuff instead, sound black, name yourselves differently, walk differently, dont do the white mans schoolwork and dont learn HISstory. Dont play the white mans game at all because they will never be fair. They cant be. It is not part of their genetics. They will cheat and lie even if it seems like they will not. It has always been like this and always will be. Shoot, for centuries, right up until just a few decades ago, these people owned you like you were animals and even called you that. Most of these peoples kids now whine today, just because for a paltry 40 years the government has tried to do something about it. They can never be fair ever.</p>
<p>I am more than willing to consider that it is all a bunch of poison. But when I venture beyond the loving sanctuary of my home (bowing reverently to my beautiful wife), I still feel the past pressing bitterly against me. To get out of it will take more than electing a disinterested black as co-chair of the PTA. It will take a lot of time and increasing numbers of blacks who are willing to risk encouraging their children to chase their dreams.</p>
<p>I called this discussion idle rethoric because I have yet to see any articulation of WHY this is a problem, and obviously no proposals or solutions that address the real issues.</p>
<p>I think we see the whys being discussed here quite well. NSM has been very clear that slavery and racism has caused many American blacks to develop negative attitudes about education and that also the educational system has certain built-in attitudes that discourage black performance. And in fact I have known this since I was a boy.</p>
<p>It is hard to discuss solutions at this point when we are still in disagreement with the causes. But, I think I have a solution (at least for my family), though unfortunately I dont think it is necessarily applicable to blacks in general.</p>
<p>I have boys and girls. My son recently scored in the 99th percentile on the PSAT. We are looking for a cold 2400 on the SAT in mid February.</p>
<p>My daughter scored in the mid 1500's on the SAT, an 800 on SATII Literature and we are looking for three perfect 800's on her SAT II's mid February.</p>
<p>Don't know if they will hit these perfect scores, but they will be very close.</p>
<p>Not bragging. I think it proves to me that when history infects the mind as it has my mind, it destroys hope and performance. We, black American parents, have just got to start freeing the minds of our kids so that they can be and do anything they wish without fear of being ridiculed. And we need to encourage them to work hard and hit those books.</p>
<p>"I think we see the whys being discussed here quite well. NSM has been very clear that slavery and racism has caused many American blacks to develop negative attitudes about education and that also the educational system has certain built-in attitudes that discourage black performance. And in fact I have known this since I was a boy.</p>
<p>It is hard to discuss solutions at this point when we are still in disagreement with the causes. But, I think I have a solution (at least for my family), though unfortunately I dont think it is necessarily applicable to blacks in general."</p>
<p>With all due respect, if YOU see the WHYs so well, why don't you spend a few seconds to share with us how this relates remotely with the ORIGINAL discussion about the report of JBHE and the need to identify subgroups of successful black students or demonize a tangential impact of our AA policies.</p>
<p>Lastly, regarding slavery and racism having caused many American blacks to develop negative attitudes about education and the educational system having certain built-in attitudes that discourage black performance, don't you think that it is time to "graduate" from those tired copouts. Please do not misunderstand me ... I know that racism is still very much in existence in 2006. On the other hand, claims of slavery are getting a tad hackneyed in 2006. Isn't it time to stop making excuses for poor performance and develop measures of accountability and ... responsibility. NSM's and your children are perfect examples of children who need to excuses for performing well above all their peers, and this regardless of race. It is clear that your were able to overcome the handicaps mentioned above. Do you realy help the less fortunate by providing another set of excuses instead of a push to look past them?</p>
<p>Is the following too simple? It's not that your great-grandparents were slaves that matters anymore. It's not that your grandparents didn't go to college, as such. It's not that your parents are poor. It's not race as a matter of DNA. It'S the Culture. Some, not all, American blacks need some assistance breaking out of a culture that doesn't particularly value higher education, for whatever reasons, including some of the above.</p>
<p>So, I tentatively conclude, affirmitative action for black skin should be illegal. That includes children of most black professionals. Affirmative action for the poor may be OK, but doesn't really go the culture problem. Foreigners, including blacks, are interesting people and add a certain type of diversity. But affirmative action, as such, should be focused on students overcoming a less academic cultural background.</p>
<p>With all due respect, if YOU see the WHYs so well, why don't you spend a few seconds to share with us how this relates remotely with the ORIGINAL discussion about the report of JBHE and the need to identify subgroups of successful black students or demonize a tangential impact of our AA policies.</p>
<p>Perhaps I am wrong, but it is my understanding that the report mentions how immigrant blacks are benefiting from AA when AA was in fact intended to address the "whys" of the AMERICAN black difficulties being mention here very well on this forum.</p>
<p>Does the report actually say that immigrant blacks were benefitting from AA?</p>
<p>You don't think Harvard counts them in its reports on minority admissions?</p>
<p>I'm not really arguing a point. Just asking a factual question. We're not concluding every black acceptee is AA, are we? If that's assumed, then I think it needs to be backed up by facts.</p>
<p>Eulenspiegel, the biggest problem of AA is that ... we still have to have it and that we still have under represented minorities. The day we no longer need it will be a great day for everyone.</p>
<p>But that's the question here. What type of underrepresentation? Black faces from rich, professional or maybe immigrant families? Or underrepresentation of a stream of Americans who for perhaps understandable reasons are not plugged into the educational system commensurate with their numbers and perhaps their inate talent?</p>
<p>Zuma, I vaguely recall statistics that Havard, after excluding foreign and immigrant Blacks, had very few in addition. I'm sure that some of those are recuited athletes (within the standards for recuited athletes) and some of the rest are not AA. That probably doesn't leave very many spots for the type of AA I support.</p>
<p>Lastly, regarding slavery and racism having caused many American blacks to develop negative attitudes about education and the educational system having certain built-in attitudes that discourage black performance, don't you think that it is time to "graduate" from those tired copouts.</p>
<p>Oh man, yes. I sure do.</p>
<p>Please do not misunderstand me ... I know that racism is still very much in existence in 2006. On the other hand, claims of slavery are getting a tad hackneyed in 2006.</p>
<p>This is like saying How can you be so tired and worn out after having run a marathon? I just slept for twelve hours!</p>
<p>Isn't it time to stop making excuses for poor performance and develop measures of accountability and ... responsibility.</p>
<p>Absolutely. But Im not making excuses. We have a problem in America that we were trying to help through AA. Forgetting for the moment whether AA works, we are finding that it is instead helping people for whom it was never intended. I personally dont want AA for my kids because I dont want insensitive people to think my kids arent good enough to stand on their own. But the fact is, there are so many of you sitting strong and proud in the castles of your white skins, and so few of us clamoring out of the pit to where you sit, I wonder if it is reasonable to expect my kids will be allowed success even if they outperform your kids. I am not trying to be harsh here. I just have some doubt that real fairness is found in allowing my children to play by the same rules as yours. But hey, I still want the field to exist as is, without AA, because I have so much faith in my kids and in how genuinely tough and open-minded they are, that I think they will punch through any difficulty they encounter, short of death.</p>
<p>But my goodness. Schools like Harvard could fill up an entire undergrad class with white kids who have scores similar to my kids and who, because they have less of that discrimination you admit still exists, have more money and thus have traveled and done stuff my kids have never done. So, I wonder if AA is really that awful.</p>
<p>Yeah. It is awful, because plenty of white kids have worked every bit as hard as my kids and done well, and they didnt do anything against anyone else. So they ought not be penalized for what someone else did. I just wish we all could look at skin color in th same way we look at hair color. We can reject folks because of culture, but it makes no sense to reject a guy just because he is a blond.</p>
<p>NSM's and your children are perfect examples of children who need to excuses for performing well above all their peers, and this regardless of race. It is clear that your were able to overcome the handicaps mentioned above.</p>
<p>Im not so sure. I have not really overcome anything. What I have done is put a cap on the anger and feelings of despair that I have deep within, and determined to die with them. Were my kids to read these comments of mine here, they would be completely and utterly shocked, because I have never once voiced them. But I am still crushed by it all, crushed I tell you.</p>
<p>I dont live through my children at all. They make their own decisions, completely control where they want to try and go to school. I just support them in whatever they choose. They are doing things and having discussions among themselves that I literally cannot even understand. They also have white friends-- lots and lots of them. Of course my inclination is to warn them about these folks, but I just never will. So far, the whites have been really decent. Even when my kids have had disagreements with their friends, it has always been normal stuff. So, I have been able to play the role of kind and wise father and direct my kids toward reconciliation. Racial stuff never has even been a part of it (though in my mind I was thinking this disagreement probably happened because THEY RACISTS!!!! gggg). I dont think I have overcome anything, but it is clear to me that my kids have.</p>
<p>Do you realy help the less fortunate by providing another set of excuses instead of a push to look past them?</p>
<p>Not making excuses at all. Cmon now. I am trying to understand why we are having so many problems and being painfully honest about it. My hope is to one day try to show poor black parents how maybe they can help their own kids escape the pain they are carrying. So far, my way is working, though there are no guarantees. You know, my kids, if they keep going as they are, will be living just like everyday Americans, and I will be six feet under.</p>
<p>I feel like the guy in the middle who senses the bullets flying by both ways from combatants who don't even know he's there.</p>
<p>I'm truely sorry that Drosslemeier, for all his success, admirable qualities, and wonderful children, feels so estranged. Maybe he lives in the wrong neighborhood or the wrong part of the country. Maybe it's hard to gain a new perspective as we grow older. I truely hope his children are able to feel that they are treated fairly and on the basis of things other than color and badges of slavery. I hope his children can raise their children they way he has, but with less baggage.</p>
<p>"Not making excuses at all. Cmon now. I am trying to understand why we are having so many problems and being painfully honest about it. My hope is to one day try to show poor black parents how maybe they can help their own kids escape the pain they are carrying. So far, my way is working, though there are no guarantees. You know, my kids, if they keep going as they are, will be living just like everyday Americans, and I will be six feet under."</p>
<p>"Let's live and let live" An easy statement for people who are not touched by this thing. Folks who don't live it, cannot understand it. It is not our culture that doesn't understand that education is the key. Most AA kids poor, middle class. . .understand that education is the ticket. No excuse. Just the facts. </p>
<p>In DC, which has the worst educational system in the country, also has public schools that rank among the top schools in the country. West of Rock Creek park the schools are excellent and many AA clamor to attend. When a family member, award winning teacher of Mathmetics, decided to return to the classroom, her assignment was at Murch Elementary. This teacher taught teachers how to teach Math. She fought to be assigned to school in underrepresented area, rebuked and decided to retire.</p>
<p>The systemic problem needs to be understood. To say that poor families have no desire for education is not true. They do. Shame on those who dismiss these families as not valuing education. Shame on the Department of Education for not caring about poor families, let's blame the victims. When teachers come to teach in DC the very best are sent west of Rock Creek Park with the same salary. The teachers who got bad grades in college are South of the park.</p>
<p>Every parent wants the very best education for their child. Every parent wants a great career, a great family life for their child. The propoganda is that AA poor don't value education. The truth is these are the "throw away" people, as if there is such a thing in this world. Demonize them so that we can get away with the favoritism, collusion and self-aggrandizement that "our" kids are so fabulous. </p>
<p>Level the playing field from elementary school. Make sure that great teachers serve across the city. Make sure that those 1000s of kids and families are supported when they seek great education. Currently, there are no such programs. </p>
<p>As far as immigrants receiving positive AA because so few American Africans
in America qualify, that will change when the people seeking excellent education for their kids are not dismissed so early in the process. The urban public education system is broken. Vilify the Dept of Education for not valuing the lives of poor people enough to ensure that every child gets what they need from early grades, forward. </p>
<p>I rescued my D from DC Public in 2nd grade when I saw the handwriting on the wall. She is an early admit to Yale, Presidential Scholar Nominee, etc. . .
and not an anomaly. Her montessori class was full of AA students who had what it took, the difference is I made it my full time job (and trust me the bureaucratic mess that masquerades as the educational system in this country needs that amount of time), spending 20-25 hours a week to ensure that she received the very best education offered in this town. Most people do not have the luxury of spending that many hours to work the system.</p>
<p>Why is that Necessary???</p>
<p>Sorry about the off topic. But think about it. Does any parent look at their brand new baby and say I don't care about your education. I know not.</p>
<p>Please do not misunderstand me ... I know that racism is still very much in existence in 2006. On the other hand, claims of slavery are getting a tad hackneyed in 2006.</p>
<p>Yet, racism is "slavery." So if racism exists today, then "slavery" exists.<br>
Racism is a grind and hard labor on the minds of those who experience it,
trust me.</p>
<p>racism is not limited to african americans- to asians- to caucasians
Special programs divide the community
trust me</p>