% Immigrant Blacks in US Colleges

<p>Not making excuses at all. C’mon now. I am trying to understand why we are having so many problems and being painfully honest about it. My hope is to one day try to show poor black parents how maybe they can help their own kids escape the pain they are carrying. So far, my way is working, though there are no guarantees. You know, my kids, if they keep going as they are, will be living just like everyday Americans, and I will be six feet under.</p>

<p>Why we are having so many problems? You already know the answer to that. My DD is considered an "honorary caucasion" in her private school, "She is one of us" and gets a free pass to live her life. She is treated as an anomaly when in fact there are thousands of kids, who given a level playing field, could do as well.</p>

<p>“Why we are having so many problems? You already know the answer to that. My DD is considered an "honorary caucasion" in her private school, "She is one of us" and gets a free pass to live her life.”</p>

<p>Well that to me is pretty sad. Shouldn’t she just be considered black, or maybe just a great person? Don't you see what has happened? Because your daughter is so smart (congrats to you both!), she is considered an honorary white person, as if being black is a thing to flee. Blackness is now identified with failure. And millions of black kids, especially poor black kids, know this too. Many of them are throwing up their hands and not playing this game in the least.</p>

<p>“She is treated as an anomaly when in fact there are thousands of kids, who given a level playing field, could do as well.”</p>

<p>I think this is true. Given a level playing field, we would be as well-represented as Asians in all disciplines. But I also know firsthand that the problem is not fully that of the Department of Education. I mean in DC, single parent homes are typical, and the children, particularly black males, are suffering like never before. Black mothers are so beset with problems they often can’t be as involved as you are in their children’s lives, let alone with their children’s education. And the idea of rescuing their children and putting them in private schools is probably not even a dream for them. Even if the Department ran things perfectly, the attitudes that persist against black kids both in and out of the black community, would persist. And they are devastating, as you well know.</p>

<p>I just don’t see the same black culture you see, though I would be overjoyed to be proven wrong here. Sure, there are black parents who are very much involved in education. But for vast numbers of us, we are just holding on and staying in the hood. All it takes for a black to find out just how free he is, is for him to study and begin speaking with good standard English.</p>

<p>"Blackness is now identified with failure."</p>

<p>Only now? Blackness has been identified with failure literally since before the inception of this country. It started when black meant you were a "decendant of Ham", destined by God Almighty Himself to be a slave in service to the decendants of Noah's other, more worthy off-spring. Black meant you were somehow lacking in virtue (the very hue of your skin being symbolic of that), lacking in intelligence, sexually promiscuous, base in your instincts, and generally less-than fully human, a "failure" of humanity. The Children of Ham were enslaved in America for over 350 years, and it took cataclysmic war, one that almost destroyed America itself, to end it. Another 100 years of abject oppression followed before laws in this country even attempted to redress it. During this almost half-millineum in time, generation after generation after generation of black people came to internalize these "truths" about blackness, came to see there was no escaping the ramifications of black skin, taught their children the futility of thinking more highly of oneself than one ought, and not to expect equal opportunity . </p>

<p>There are certain Skinnerian priciples of learned behavior. If you enclose an dog in a space surrounded by a powerful electric fence, it eventually learns that he's hopelessly trapped. If you one day turn off the electricity, you can be sure that he will not attempt to escape. Its imprisonment is now between its ears. But, it is imprisoned non-the-less.
The fence was fully electrified for over 450 years in America. The juiced has been off for only about 40 years (some would say, far less than that). It's hard to convince a lot of us that the electricity is not on for at least part of the day. But, like the dog in the aforementioned analogy, it's largely a matter of what you believe. As Drosselmeier said, "All it takes for a black to find out just how free he is, is for him to study and begin speaking with good standard English." </p>

<p>Yep, been there, done that. Bites, I can tell you. When I was being relentlessly ridiculed in Junior High for "trying to act white" because I loved books, and spoke standard english, I came to realize that my black peers placed more restrictions on my ambitions than virtually any of the whites in the school. I realized that they really didn't think very highly of themselves because they had subconsciously bought the lie that black meant less-than. It was a personal revelation for me and one of the saddest moments of my life.</p>

<p>“I feel like the guy in the middle who senses the bullets flying by both ways from combatants who don't even know he's there. I'm truely sorry that Drosslemeier, for all his success, admirable qualities, and wonderful children, feels so estranged.”</p>

<p>eulenspiegel: I hardly ever express these views, except to my wife, who understands exactly what I mean. I do it here only to try to explain my view of what is going on in millions of black families in America, how it affects black academic performance and why instead of AA being designed with African, Caribbean and Canadian blacks in mind, it was designed in view of this unique problem within the American black community. Perhaps AA divides Americans (I think it does), but this is not exactly the issue here.</p>

<p>“Maybe he lives in the wrong neighborhood or the wrong part of the country. Maybe it's hard to gain a new perspective as we grow older.”</p>

<p>It is plain to me I can do nothing to help you understand this issue and that it probably is even unfair to you for me to expect that you would understand it. There is no reason for you to do this and besides, it is too heavy and dull a thing to worry about when folks have their own problems to deal with. I am just hopeful that my children will remain just as free of it.</p>

<p>“I truely hope his children are able to feel that they are treated fairly and on the basis of things other than color and badges of slavery. I hope his children can raise their children they way he has, but with less baggage.”</p>

<p>I think this will probably be the case. My kids from time-to-time will say things like “why don’t blacks just get up and go for it??????” and I just shake my head and try to give a near clinical explanation of it. The downside of what I have done is to have made it difficult for my children to identify with this part of me (a part that I think veritably defines American black culture). The upside is they are pretty free to move around and engage everyone, listen to anything, and basically experiment and do as they please. I mean, my house is probably the only house in the neighborhood where System of a Down is cherished and the Riemann Hypothesis is being passionately discussed and worked on. I pray God that America will now be good enough not to disillusion my children. I do hope I have not made a mistake.</p>

<p>But hey, I’m fine. To see me, you’d have no idea at all that I feel as I do. I am just a normal guy.</p>

<p>“Only now? Blackness has been identified with failure literally since before the inception of this country. It started when black meant you were a "decendant of Ham", destined by God Almighty Himself to be a slave in service to the decendants of Noah's other, more worthy off-spring….”</p>

<p>Poetsheart: Of course you are quite correct. I guess the important point on which I focused was that the meaning of blackness in America is distorted. Even when we blacks boisterously declare our blackness we seem often to do so to compensate for the insecurity that is always there. Something awful has gotten in us, very deep and has just torn up whatever it is that makes a person feel whole.</p>

<p>Ironically, even this most disastrous and thickest of clouds has for me a silver lining. I look at suffering people and can almost feel what they feel, and I just cannot resist trying to crawl into their space with them to help, or at least just suffer with them as a companion. And, you know, I’ve claimed here that I have issues with whites and things like that; but a call early this morning from a close friend just kinda woke me up to just how much hooey it all really is. I somehow had it in my head that I was this black loner type who basically avoided whites, when in fact I know plenty of white guys very closely. Many of them are hurting as much as I am, and are leaning pretty heavily on me. I just forgot about them because oddly enough, when I am with them, all the racial stuff just completely vanishes. I mean, I actually forgot about them while posting here because they just don’t seem the scoundrels I have had in mind while here. Weird.</p>

<p>All in all, I think all this ugly stuff has ultimately made me an uncommonly attentive and sensitive husband, father and person. So, you know, its all working out. I bet you know exactly what I am talking about.</p>

<p>“The fence was fully electrified for over 450 years in America. The juiced has been off for only about 40 years (some would say, far less than that). It's hard to convince a lot of us that the electricity is not on for at least part of the day. But, like the dog in the aforementioned analogy, it's largely a matter of what you believe.”</p>

<p>Ha ha. Yeah. I think maybe the juice is turned off, at least I am forcing myself to hope it is, despite what seems to be a growing number of racist and neo-nazi groups in my country. I have touched the fence and didn’t die, and my kids play near it all the time. Without even knowing the significance of it, they are using wire-cutters to clip holes in it - gggg.</p>

<p>“As Drosselmeier said, "All it takes for a black to find out just how free he is, is for him to study and begin speaking with good standard English." Yep, been there, done that. Bites, I can tell you… It was a personal revelation for me and one of the saddest moments of my life.”</p>

<p>I have had this experience almost exactly, and I bet most blacks have. I think we really ought to just stop and learn a lot from the whites. These folks are no smarter than we are, I don’t care what studies folks cite. And there is no way Asians are smarter than they are either. Asians are shoving a lot of bodies toward the sciences, just as we are shoving a lot of bodies toward sports. Asia is just a factory for this sort of thing. But if you would just take a look in the back of the Asian factory, you will probably find a whole unfathomable ton of Asian scientist rejects, people who just didn’t make the cut. They are now slaving away in China and Japan somewhere at jobs that are terribly unfulfilling because rather than chase what they really wished to chase, they were culturally forced in vain to chase science and stuff, etc. Black culture is a sports factory. We shove a lot of bodies out the door and at sports. But take a look in the back and you will find just tons and tons of would be sports stars who just didn’t make the cut. Many of these folks were naturally built to be mathematicians (like me) and scientists and violinists and eccentric philosophers and total geeks. But our culture just forced them toward sports or other “black” pursuits. These people have now lost their chance to be what they were built to be and are unrealized, slogging away at life and marking time, often in prisons. Asian cultures have “chosen” more wisely because there are far more available spots in the sciences (medicine, research, professorships, etc., etc.) than there are in sports. So we have a LOT more rejects than they. But they ain’t what they appear to be. So we ought not be fooled.</p>

<p>Now whites have crushed a lot of other folks, and in many ways continue to do so. But they have some very worthy traits too, and we blacks ought to just enjoy them. I think the great thing about whites is they give themselves freedom to do anything. I mean, I recently heard a recording of Pat Boone singing “Tooty Fruity! Oh Rudy!” for cryin’ out loud. It was just god awful, but think about it! Pat saw, then he conquered (well, okay, he tried), and while maybe some whites whined against him at the time, most just didn’t care and probably even loved it (though I really can’t see how). Sure, we have black conductors, but they often must suffer so many arrows from other blacks that they just have to feel weird. I don’t think Elvis had to deal with this very much at all, and neither does Emmenim (sp?). I mean, just listen to most whites sing today. They all sound like us.</p>

<p>We blacks have a lot of freedom in sports and some kinds of music, and as a result we have done remarkably well. We need to open the gates to all things, so that we feel free to do anything we wish. Wouldn’t it be nice to see tons of black nerds? Well, wouldn’t it? When we as a people finally decide to be free, it will be pretty amazing. Somehow, we have to get the word out to all blacks that the juice in the fence is off. I am hoping that maybe this will happen when our kids cut the whole fence completely down. Then the study that entitles this thread will have no real meaning, and neither will Affirmative Action.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Emmenim

[/quote]
it's spelled Eminem hehehe.</p>

<p>Yep, been there, done that. Bites, I can tell you. When I was being relentlessly ridiculed in Junior High for "trying to act white" because I loved books, and spoke standard english, I came to realize that my black peers placed more restrictions on my ambitions than virtually any of the whites in the school. I realized that they really didn't think very highly of themselves because they had subconsciously bought the lie that black meant less-than. It was a personal revelation for me and one of the saddest moments of my life.</p>

<p>I hear this often, but I nor my D ever experienced it. To you all respect, but the students who chose to "act white" (in some cases, probably not yours) were not only expressing themselves with standard english or reading books. Many of these students ignored, were ashamed of, kept away from AA's who did not do same, hung under and around the caucasion kids, and in some cases showed their contempt (either outwardly or inwardly).</p>

<p>Don't paint such a broad brush because this is your experience. D continues to maintain ties to her friends who did not escape DC public schools and they cried for joy as she receives accolades as a Senior. Many are proud that someone they know rises to the top.</p>

<p>But our culture just forced them toward sports or other “black” pursuits. These people have now lost their chance to be what they were built to be and are unrealized, slogging away at life and marking time, often in prisons.</p>

<p>Our culture is not pushing kids toward sports and music. Our Culture produced MLK, Malcolm X, Mae Jaimason, Senator Oboma, Sheila Washington (first AA to receive PHD in Physics), etc. . .the list goes on. I taught young children, tutor them now, and all want to be lawyers, doctors, president and around middle school reality sets in. They see the "glass ceiling"</p>

<p>There will never be more than 1 AA Supreme Court Justice. There will never be more than 2,3 Cabinet Member AA. There will never be more than one or two, 3 tops US Senators, there will never be more than 3,4 AA Astronauts headed for space. . .These kids are smarter than you give them credit. They are astute and keen about the reality that is this country.</p>

<p>The talented tenth of us. . .that is all that will ever be allowed to prosper.
Not 11%, not 12%. . .</p>

<p>Well that to me is pretty sad. Shouldn’t she just be considered black, or maybe just a great person? Don't you see what has happened? Because your daughter is so smart (congrats to you both!), she is considered an honorary white person, as if being black is a thing to flee. Blackness is now identified with failure. And millions of black kids, especially poor black kids, know this too. Many of them are throwing up their hands and not playing this game in the least.</p>

<p>She is considered an honorary caucasion by caucasions. It is easier to deal with her that way. . .for them. Understand the quandry people face when they meet someone who goes totally against their idea of what that person should be. Instead of questioning their own preconcieved beliefs, critically thinking about how the beliefs came to be, and throwing out those beliefs it is easier to pretend she is one of them, than to think that we are intelligent, secure and conscious. </p>

<p>Not as easy to demonize the Culture when folk critically think about how she came to be at the top of her class.</p>

<p>"There will never be more than 1 AA Supreme Court Justice."</p>

<p>Would you like to revise that statement? </p>

<p><a href="http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/members.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/members.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I hope you do not forget that in 1967, Johnson expanded the Executive Order to include affirmative action requirements to benefit women.</p>

<p>There will never be more than one or two, 3 tops US Senators</p>

<p>Even if you do not count the women, I'm not sure how that could be true:</p>

<p>Ken L. Salazar (D-Colorado), 2005-
Melquiades R. Martinez (R-Florida), 2005-
Robert Menendez (D-New Jersey), 2006-</p>

<p>Unless, for some reason, those three do not count for not being the right AA folks :(</p>

<p>^^^ I believe sent meant AA to mean African American.</p>

<p>The was once an informal Jewish seat on the Supreme Court. Now there are two Justices who are Jewish, out of nine, with little if any commentary on the appointment of the second.</p>

<p>The was once an informal one Catholic seat on the Supreme Court. The fifth (now a majority!) was just confirmed, and his religion would not have been mentioned except for possible relevance to the abortion issue.</p>

<p>Women (probably at least one a Black woman), other Blacks, and Latinos, will be coming along in greater numbers soon. Asians coming on strong. We might need affirmative action for male WASPs before too long.</p>

<p>"she is considered an honorary white person, as if being black is a thing to flee. Blackness is now identified with failure. And millions of black kids, especially poor black kids, know this too."</p>

<p>I'm confused about the word "too" at the end. The idea of an academic black student with good language skill being seen as "acting white" may be a problem with her black peers, but I am unaware that white people ever think or say that.</p>

<p>I don't know that I would raise my child in that area, if that was a common accepted belief.
My daughter has black friends, white friends, asian, latina, they are all kids, they all go to school, they all work hard. Some subgroups have more difficulty staying focused than others, parental support makes a difference. If your parents never go to open house, never inquire about your homework, or where you are going at night, it is harder to stay focused on your goal of after high school.
But that is a support issue, not a race issue.</p>

<p>"^^^ I believe sent meant AA to mean African American."</p>

<p>Plausible, but not a common use on CC, or in general. :)</p>

<p>"I hear this often, but I nor my D ever experienced it. To you all respect, but the students who chose to "act white" (in some cases, probably not yours) were not only expressing themselves with standard english or reading books. Many of these students ignored, were ashamed of, kept away from AA's who did not do same, hung under and around the caucasion kids, and in some cases showed their contempt (either outwardly or inwardly)."</p>

<p>If you hear it often, Sent, it's because it was (and apparently still is, in some places) a common phenomenon. In my own personal case, I merely longed to experience things that I had never been exposed to in the segregated school. I found that the differences between the "colored" school and the newly integrated white school were profound, not just because of the presence of white faces, but because of the sheer abundance of everything "school". Lots more books (new ones!), more and better supplies for budding artists such as myself (no more having to share tin cans full of small, broken crayons, no more being limited to only one sheet of manilla drawing paper; paste, glitter and construction paper galore, a school building that was palatial and filled with light, art and music, a shady playground full of wonderful equipment in good repair, etc.) I thought, "so this is what they were trying to keep from us!" Well, the cat was out of the bag now, and I personally intended to take full advantage of this new world.</p>

<p>Thinking back on the whole experience, what I find somewhat perplexing is the way in which the rules subtly seemed to change not long after schools desegregated. At the colored school, there hadn't been any particular penalty for being serious about learning, for speaking correct english, or showing enthusiasm in class (other than the odd, occasional label of "brown noser"). But after integration, something seemed to fundamentally shift. We had been warned to "watch" the white teachers and students for signs of prejudice, told to expect it daily as a matter of fact, and to report back to our parents any incidences of such. And indeed, there were teachers who obviously resented having black children in their classrooms. Many of the white kids, also, were obviously acting upon the warnings and injunctions with which they had been sent to school. They looked upon us with distrust, condescension, and in some cases, out and out fear. However, there were exceptions. My new teacher (and reportedly, a few others also) seemed to enthusiastically embrace ALL her students, and---good golly almighty, me in particular. I soon became the teacher's "pet", a state which, coincidently enough, was something I was use to. I had been one or another's teacher's pet for virtually the whole time I had been at the colored school, having been told that I was exceptionally bright and talented. Mrs. C also, showered me with more of the same. And while there were white children who wouldn't have graced me with a hello if you'd offered them fifty dollars, there were others who warmed to me quite nicely, and seemed as fascinated by me as I was by them. Soon friendships between white and black students were flowering all over the school. One of my first was with a girl who had the reddest hair and greenest eyes I had ever seen, and who carried the strangest lunches I had ever heard of (pimento and creme cheese sandwiches, guacamole dip and carrots---LOL!). She had a collection of "troll dolls" to die for, and she brought extras for me at playtime. We spent many hours under a tree during recess, dressing those freaky little dolls with scraps of cloth. Nobody thought anything of it.</p>

<p>It wasn't until Junior High that there came a sudden and absolute injunction against having white friends, or showing overt interest in academics. This all seemed to ride in on the coat tails of a militant shift in black politics. Dr. King's message of non-violent protest was wearing thin (they had murdered him, after all), and the messages of men like Stokley Carmichael, Malcom X, and H. Rap Brown were resonating with more and more frustrated blacks. The Black Panther Party made its presence known in no uncertain terms, as cities burned in the wake of nightly riots. Black people said, ENOUGH!---were no longer patient and longsuffering, hoping to persuade white folks of our worthiness to sit at the table, but "Black and Proud", mad as hell, and determined to end the oppression NOW! White folks became THE ENEMY, an enemy to be scorned and distained entirely. All things perceived as "white" were rejected, and rules about what it meant to be "black and proud" were tacitly put in place. There had been a race riot in the cafeteria of the Jr. High the year before my class arrived. Into the wake of this volatile mix I came, naively expecting that things would continue as they had at my last school. I had always had lots of friends, mostly black of course, and recently, a few white. But suddenly, the white ones had to go, less you be accused of "cheese eating" (to this day, I still don't get the analogy). I had two white girl friends, which ended up being two too many. My way of speaking, which had never been a problem before, was now "proof" that I was "cheesy". I became a pariah, virtually overnight. My black friends all dropped me like a bad case of acne, less they be grouped in with me. Some of them even joined in with my tormenters (the most painful being, the first cousin with whom I had grown up from infancy, my favorite and most cherished first cousin!). My black peers not only ostricized me, but daily verbally and physically abused me. People called me "cheese eater", shoved me hard against banks of lockers, and disappeared, laughing, into the crowd between class changes. Or I got followed by a group of girls, one of whom would yank my hair so hard it brought tears to my eyes, When I'd whirled around to face them, I'd find them all standing in a knot, smirking, daring me to identify which one had done the deed. </p>

<p>And it wasn't just the girls. Even some of the boys (who use to openly admire me) got with the program, and ostricized me. It felt like catch 22. I couldn't show any interest in friendships with white kids because it was proof positive that I was "cheesy", and I couldn't have any black friends, because that was proof positive that "cheesy was contagious". But, I just wanted friends--ANY friends. I struck up a very brief friendship with a new black girl (Katrina) whose family had just moved to town. I spent a couple of saturdays at her house, and we seemed to get along great-----until Katrina was made fully aware of my status as pariah, and the dangers of being associated with me. That's when she joined my group of tormenters. I don't know if you can imagine how much that hurt, how hopeless that made me feel. </p>

<p>Lunch time was a no win situation. By this time, whites and blacks absolutely did not sit together in the lunch room. I couldn't sit with my only two white friends, lest I prove once again that I wanted to "be white". And I couldn't sit with the black kids because I was persona non grata. I ended up going through the lunch line to buy an ice cream sandwich and, in good weather, would go to the bleachers outside and wait for lunch period to end. On bad weather days, I'd slip into the library and hide between the stacks of periodicals. One day, as lunch period ended, and kids were heading to their next classes, I tried to leave the library inconspicuously, only to overhear one of the black girls say, "see, she always hangin' out in the library with the white folks." </p>

<p>Well, I just couldn't figure out why my world had been turned so hopelessly upside-down. How had it happened that I was the golden child one day, and the dregs of society the next? I fell into my first deep clinical depression. I was taken to see psychiatrists and therapists who prescribed drugs for anxiety and insomnia. I stopped talking and went deep inside myself. I made a feeble attempt at suicide by swallowing half a bottle of asperin, the only plentiful drug in the house at the time. When I returned to school a week later, my darling first cousin had put the word out all over the school, and some of the black kids would say as I passed, "too bad she didn't die".</p>

<p>I'm not related this story so that people will feel sorry for me. It was a long time ago. Now, I look back upon the whole thing with amazement, but no longer do I feel hurt or anger. What saddens me is when I hear STILL from academically gifted black kids that they are accused of "trying to act white" just because they make excellent grades and speak correct english. I had hoped that we, as a people, would have moved well beyond that crippling social constraint by now. Thank God it's not as common as it was during my day, but it still occurs, especially in poor neighborhoods.</p>

<p>"There will never be more than 1 AA Supreme Court Justice. There will never be more than 2,3 Cabinet Member AA. There will never be more than one or two, 3 tops US Senators, there will never be more than 3,4 AA Astronauts headed for space. . .These kids are smarter than you give them credit. They are astute and keen about the reality that is this country.</p>

<p>The talented tenth of us. . .that is all that will ever be allowed to prosper.
Not 11%, not 12%. . ."</p>

<p>It wasn't that long ago that blacks couldn't so much as be served at the lunch counter of Woolworth's. I'll wager that back then, few of them would have believed that in their grandchildren's generation, there would be a black Secretary of State, and National Security Advisor under the same Presidential administration (nor probably that these advances would be dismissed as insignificant by so many in the African American community today), or that there would be black CEOs of some of the world's largest and most powerful corporations (such as Richard Parsons of Time Warner), or that a black man would be widely celebrated was one of the world's most gifted neurosurgeons (Dr. Ben Carson), or that a black woman would be one of the most beloved and respected, most economically and socially powerful women on the face of the planet (Oprah Winfrey). These are just a few examples of how far we've come, and the list goes on and on. I have to say that I'm somewhat dismayed by the hopeless cynicism of your words, Sent. "Never" is a very long time. And only what is believed can be achieved. </p>

<p>"I taught young children, tutor them now, and all want to be lawyers, doctors, president and around middle school reality sets in. They see the "glass ceiling.""</p>

<p>I hope they also see that the ceiling is not nearly as impenetrable as it once was. I hope that they are determined, through excellence and hard work, to smash it to smithereens.</p>

<p>As far as what gets "pushed" within various cultures, I think Drossellmeier definitely has a point. It's a matter of what's most valued within any given culture or subculture. Within certain Asian communities, education and careers in math, the hard sciences, and medicine are considered the height of success and respectability. If you'll read some of the threads here on CC started by Asian Students, you'll read that some are tremendously pressured (yes, "pushed") to excel academically, particularly in math and science, that sports and extra-curricular activities are placed far down the list of priorities in some Asian households. Ergo, you'll find a disproportionate percentage of Asian students scoring very high on academic achievement tests, and attending the most prestigious colleges and universities in the country.</p>

<p>Within the African American community, sports prowess has long been highly regarded, because it was athletic excellence that first thrust certain blacks onto the world stage, affording them respect and international acclaim. Jackie Robinson, Jesse Owens, Althea Gibson, Arthur Ashe, Mohammed Ali, Julius Irving and Michael Jordan, just to name a few achieved fame, respectability and often, heretofore unheard of wealth. These were icons of black success within the black community, along with entertainers like Sammy Davis, Jr., Lena Horne,
Ella, Nat, etc. Careers in sports and entertainment are not so much "pushed" within the AfAm community, as they are held to represent the pinnacle of success, especially by our youth. Success in academics and business are quite frankly several rungs down on the priority scale for a large subset of AfAm kids because black examples of these kinds of successes are not nearly so lauded within the larger AfAm community itself. I'd wager that only a small percentage of AfAm youth (particularly poor ones) have ever heard of Mae Jamison, Sheila Washington, Richard Parsons, or Ben Carson---heck many of them have probably never even heard of Barack Obama. Most of them have, however, heard of Condoleeza Rice and Colon Powell, and have ascertained that the achievements of these two powerful and prominent black people are virtually dismissed within the black community. Is it any small wonder that Labron James, Beyonce Knowles, and Kenye West are more highly celebrated and repected? Who do you think our young people are more likely lto model, Labron James, or Barack Obama?</p>

<p>Poetsheart,</p>

<p>What a phenomenal post!!</p>

<p>I learned quite a bit. Yours is a perspective I have not heard. I have a lot to think about.</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

<p>". The idea of an academic black student with good language skill being seen as "acting white" may be a problem with her black peers, but I am unaware that white people ever think or say that."</p>

<p>I know that at least one white teen said that about one of my sons. It was supposed to be a compliment in that the teen didn't view my son as acting like "other black guys."</p>

<p>Poetsheart, thanks for several excellent posts. You are obviously a very thoughtful and insightful human being. It is a pleasure reading what you've written.</p>

<p>I agree with your analogy of the dog and the electric fence. I also agree that in the pre-integration era, African American youth culture did NOT equate speaking standard English or excelling academically with "acting white." In fact, there was relatively little anti-intellectualism even during the black consciousnessness period of the 1960s and 1970s. Stokley Carmichael was, after all, a graduate of the Bronx High School of Science. Malcolm X, although self-taught, was a man of incredible intellectual gifts. The Panthers studied Mao and Marx and Aime Cesaire and Franz Fanon and were very well informed about the emerging countries of the Third World. My parents still play "Young, Gifted and Black" by Nina Simone from that period. To be black, or for that matter to be black and oppositional to white culture and power, did not imply that one was anti-intellectual or anti-achievement. "Acting white" meant embracing values of entitlement and privilege, while aping certain white affectations. It meant being a self-hater or one who viewed oneself as somehow "better" than other black people. Clarence Thomas would be a poster boy for "acting white."</p>

<p>In my opinion, the problem is of more recent origin than the black consciousness period of the 1960s and 1970s. Part of it, IMO, is that young black men have lost effective and politically disciplined role models like Carmichael and Malcolm, who were black and oppositional and smart, and have increasingly come to associate being oppositional with an apolitical black nihilism that takes its inspiration more from hip-hop than from anything else.</p>

<p>I wish that some well respected researcher would research the phenomenon of high educational achievement's being viewed by blacks as "acting white." </p>

<p>My suspicion is that this phenomenon began in the 1970s as a result of the end of legal segregation. Unlike what Poetsheart reported experiencing as a black student who integrated a white school, most of the blacks whom I know who went through that experience said it was difficult because their teachers (who were white) did not want them there, did not appreciate their intelligence, or clearly did not have any respect for black people as having equal ability to whites.</p>

<p>It's important to realize that when integration occurred, black teachers lost their jobs (because white parents did not want their children taught by blacks), and black students then had teachers who were white and who themselves had grown up in a system that strongly believed in the inferiority of black people. Those teachers had never been around black people on any kind of equal basis. The only blacks whom they knew were domestics. </p>

<p>Those teachers also had themselves believed in the inferiority of blacks. It's not as if southern white teachers had been marching in favor of integrating the schools, libraries and other places where blacks were shut out. As is the case with most white southerners (and, frankly, probably most white people in the US), they had thought that segregation was perfectly fine. </p>

<p>Anyway, when the black students suddenly were taught by white teachers who probably didn't like them or respect them, education probably did become linked in the black students' minds with "acting white."</p>

<p>After all, no longer was their teacher a black person (and back then, some of the most respected people in the black communities were teachers) who lived alongside them, knew their parents, etc., all of a sudden, their teachers were someone who looked very different than them and regarded them as aliens and probably also regarded education as being a "white" thing.</p>

<p>Even in the probably relatively rare instances in which white teachers noticed the academic talents of black students, those teachers noticed this in a racist way such as viewing those black students as being "like whites," i.e. different than the majority of black students.</p>

<p>For instance, one of my black friends who integrated an Alabama elementary school said that when her white teacher noticed she was a good reader, the teacher paraded my friend from (majority white) class to white class, had my friend read, and told the other students, "Look what this little doobie can do."</p>

<p>The black students correctly viewed the teacher's comments as insulting and condescending and started calling my friend "Little Doobie." Fortunately for my friend, her mother hit the ceiling when my friend told her what the teacher had done, and my friend's mother was assertive enough to confront the teacher and tell the teacher to never call her daughter that kind of name again or display her like that again.</p>

<p>(In case some of you don't understand the subtext to what happened, the message that the teacher was giving was that my friend was quite remarkable because -- wow -- a "doobie" --code name for cute black kid -- could actually be intelligent enough to read!)</p>

<p>Anyway, if one looks at African Americans throughout our history in this country, one will see that until about the 1970s, there is strong documentation that academics was very highly valued in the black community.</p>

<p>Slaves risked beatings and being sold away in order to read (teaching slaves to read was illegal). Just read Frederick Douglass' autobiography and see how when he was enslaved, he tricked the plantation owners kids into teaching him to read. Mary McLeod Bethune, the 15th of 17 children of former slaves, so believed in the importance of education that with $1.50 and hope, she founded Bethune Cookman College.</p>

<p>In Florida, in the 1940s, black parents successfully sued to get their kids' school year as lengthy as white kids' school years were. (Black kids were by law going to schools only 6 months a year in order to be available to plant and harvest crops.)</p>

<p>During the 1960s, black children risked their lives integrating schools, not because they had a desire to sit next to white people, but because the white schools had the best resources.</p>

<p>During "Freedom Summer," 1964, more than 3,000 black children attended 41 freedom schools across the state, eagerly learning things ranging from math, English to foreign languages, black history and leadership. </p>

<p>The students as well as the volunteers risked their lives to do these things. For instance, many of you have heard about Goodman, Cheney and Schwerner, the civil rights workers who were killed that summer. You may not know, though, that they were killed after attempting to set up a Freedom School in a church. When the trio went to revisit the church, which had been burned to the ground by racists, they were killed.</p>

<p>Anyway, it's wrong to assume that African Americans have always been inherently against learning. The phenomenon of African Americans viewing education as "acting white" is a direct result of the racism in American society, which includes white Americans not believing in the intelligence of black people and white Americans not giving blacks equal opportunities to academically succeed.</p>