Importance of Demographics

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Hey everyone, </p>

<p>In short, do you consider the wealth, background, and priorities of the kids at a college a big factor in your decision on where to go?</p>

<p>If that doesn't make sense, read on...</p>

<p>As I'm starting to think about what college I'd like to end up at my parents continue to express concern over the type of people that go to "these schools". I applied to mostly good schools(Syracuse, Northeastern, Lehigh, Lafayette, Smith, U of Miami), a few state schools (UMD, Uof South Carolina, U Delaware), and one uncategorized school(Embry Riddle)... BUT the schools that I most prefer are Lehigh, Lafayette, Smith and Syracuse. </p>

<p>My family is fairly wealthy but with both of my parents growing up in very modest homes, they have continued these morals and have raised us in a way that any middle class family would live. I go to a public school where I, as a white person, am in the minority. There are no BMWs or Acuras in the parking lot and our school struggles to stay up with the averages. We have visited each of my favored schools and my parents think that the type of kids that goes there are all upperclass, rich, and more or less, not the type of person that would "enrich" my life. This is especially true for Lehigh and Lafayette and it doesn't help that Lafayette is often described as the "rich kids extension of boarding school". I guess I just can't see that this is possible when each of these schools gives out huge amounts of NEED BASED AID. The student body has to be diverse because they don't give out aid to upperclass families. My parents have said many times that they just don't think that that type of institution will make me grow into a more well rounded, more appreciative individual... I don't believe that, but that's why I've posed this question to you. </p>

<p>Do you think that going to a "rich kid school" (as they have been titled here on CC) is a negative thing? </p>

<p>I believe that the educational opportunites are far greater at these schools then at MOST state universities. I want a small, close knit student body and I belive I could find this at a small, private, LAC. I don't want to be judged based on my collection of Manolo Blahniks or Dolce and Gabbanas but understand that every school has their grouping of this type of individual.</p>

<p>Thoughts?</p>

<p>... it seems like I'm rambling but there is a point to be had somewhere up there.</p>

2

<p>I think your parents concern is a very legitimate question ... are you looking for a diverse student population. The diversity could be racial, political, or economic. Thinking about these issues when visiting schools is a great idea (in my opinion).</p>

<p>Mini has written a number of times on "the entitlement index" which tries to get a handle on the economic diversity of a school ... it looks at the number of kids who went to prep school, get no financial aid, or get pell grants. For me, this analysis highlights schools that I'd like me kids to check out because they are promoting an economically diverse student body.</p>

<p>check out this string (post #15)
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=3326&highlight=entitlement+index%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=3326&highlight=entitlement+index&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Personally, I am a BIG proponent of going to a top tier school if they are a good fit ... among them I would look for geographic, racial, and economic diversity.</p>

3

<p>Anovice, I can't speak to the other three schools but I can speak to Smith: Wellesley was more as your parents fear, in the eyes of my D; Smith, however, has a very broad economic range. There are students who count their quarters and there are students who spend without consideration and a large number in the middle. My D is thrilled with both the academics and the "close knit" community as you describe it. </p>

<p>Now, from what I hear about Trinity (CT), your folks might have a point.</p>

4

<p>Well, more than 40% of the kids who go to Trinity get financial aid. And about half take out loans. Trinity pretty much meets need., and the average aid packaage is about $26K. There may not be many PLUS loan recipients which will tell you how many "poor" kids go there, but it seems to me that the kids who go there run middle income on up. When I visited the school last month, I also visited U of Hartford in the same city. Though the school is considered 4th tier by USN&WR, it is still a private college and the cost differential is really about $8000. They only meet about a quarter of need and their packages average less than half of what Trinity does. Since 65% of the kids going to U of Hartford qualify for need, they are all borrowing money to go there, I guess which may make for a less flush student crowd than at Trinity where the need is met. Big difference in amenties and environment. I think you need to visit and see what atmosphere you prefer.</p>

5

<p>As an alumnus of Syracuse who came from a moderate-income family and attended on financial aid, I can assure you that there are also plenty of low and middle income students there on financial aid as well. No matter where you go to school, you will choose who to associate with - if you don't like people who show off their material wealth, you will find like-minded folks at all of the schools on your list. The bottom line is the education you will receive (and for me personally, learning to deal with "rich people" was an education in and of itself at Syracuse).</p>

6

<p>Anovice, have you spoken with your parents about financing your education? Did they choose your public school out of convictions about public school or diversity being an important value?
Please do not misunderstand me, I am not belittling their values and beliefs or your attraction to these colleges, I am asking 2 different questions.
Your post raised a concern for me that perhaps there is miscommunication here - could they be concerned about paying for your education at Lehigh or Lafayette? Cost should be out in the open, fairly discussed.
The other subtext I heard was that they have convictions about diversity/values/money, etc that they have expressed by perhaps living in modest house/average school district. If this is the case, then you need to give them reasons why these schools appeal to you that aren't about money - like size. Try to talk them into accompanying you on an admitted visit.</p>

7

<p>Cangel- </p>

<p>Regarding public school, it was chosen because of a multitude of things but one was the value issue. Our local private school is very close minded and known for being the typical white, upper middle class, background. I think that it was mutual decision between my parents and myself(and my sister) that we would go to public school. We wanted diversity and wanted to be the "big fish in small pond" type thing... more opportunities for us at a public then private(high school, that is).</p>

<p>Regarding money, it is always a very open yet heated topic. They constantly say that they have no problem paying $40K a year if I think it is worth it. But I believe, just like they believe, that a mere $25K difference(from my state school, UMd to most private) is not worth it. The whole financing of college is different in our family as we get a set amount and then spend as we like. If I go to a $40K a year school I would be taking out some loans but if I go to a state school(or on a scholarship... not likely as I'm not that strong of a candidate) I will have extra cash for a car, trips, etc. My sister is on a full ride so I have alot to live up to. </p>

<p>We have already visited the schools and agree on the topics mentioned above(seeming lack of real diversity) but I don't see it as a negative aspect like they do. They are by no means saying that I can't go to a school, but are saying that they would think twice about attending this type of school.</p>

<p>... clear things up a bit?</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

8

<p>Most of the schools I want to go to are a little bit "rich kid," at least by reputation. A lot of good colleges have that image because the wealthy are better equipped to a) prepare students for college and b) pay for expensive private or out-of-state tuition. </p>

<p>Actually, I don't know of any good or somewhat selective schools that have a reputation of taking a lot of lower/middle class students. I guess I have heard that Grinnell has a higher middle class population that a lot of other LAC's, but middle class folks still have the same advantages as the wealthy, just in smaller amounts.</p>

9

<p>Anovice, the fact that you and your parents are having conversations about diversity, values and entitlement shows that you have learned a lot during your high school days and will continue to be sensitive to such issues in the future. I think that I would tell your parents that because you share their interest and concerns, it is unlikely that you will turn into a different person in college. The smaller schools that you are interested in present wonderful academic and extracurricular opportunities and will give you access to intelligent, caring professors who might even become your friends. While these schools have their share of rich, spoiled kids, they also have their share of thoughtful, interesting kids and your parents should trust you to make the right choices in friends.</p>

10

<p>Is there something inherently evil about wealthy kids? private school kids? teens that drive imports? If a group is diverse racially, economically,etc. but all think alike, vote for the same candidates,blah,blah,blah....then only the class photo is a menagerie. Is a "Wesleyan" truly diverse where say a "Washington and Lee" is not? Seems to me they're opposite sides of the same coin.
Most will disagree with me but you don't have to seek out diversity. It's everywhere. You can't hide from it even if you want to.
Maybe choosing a school is as simple as finding the best place you can get into that fits! The rest may well take care of itself.</p>

11

<p>I can certainly see the merit of what you are saying though. I would like to go somewhere where the economic diversity exceeds that of my current school. There is definitely a benefit to being exposed to economic diversity. It expands your horizons and does so continually as you live and study together. Unfortunately, when many schools offer need-based aid, all real need is not truly met, and thus many of the nation's top schools lack amounts of middle-class students porportional to the larger community.</p>

12

<p>oldman- no, there is nothing "inherently evil about wealthy kids" but I think that living off your parents wealth to an extreme point(ie the Manolo Blahniks or Dolce and Gabbanas comment above) while you're in college isn't something that will make me a more wholesome person... You have to earn what you get, and although my parents are fairly wealthy, they have made us work for what we want... this is not the case in alot of situations. This is not a matter of overall diversity(ie race, political stance) but more economic. </p>

<p>... I also agree that there is diversity everywhere but you cannot deny that some schools scream one type of person, one race, or one political viewpoint. BUT, to support your view, even at these institutions there will always be pockets of "dissenters" who won't agree. </p>

<p>I see the concern of my parents, but I am in agreement with most of you that it is not a vital concern.</p>

<p>Thanks</p>

13

<p>Yes, Anovice, that does help. I admire your parents greatly, they sound like solid, wise folks. Four years of college will not undo the 18 years of good work they have put into you, in fact it may only solidify the values they have given you.
Yes, there will probably be a higher percentage of students from wealthy backgrounds at those schools - private schools cost more, and wealthier people are better able to afford them. But, if UMDCP is like the flagship state unis I'm familiar with, it has a good share of wealthy kids, too. And, in my admitted narrow experience, that group tends to not be the group that values education, those children are sent to the smaller, more "academic" schools.</p>

<p>The issue of how to spend your college allotment is an interesting one, and a different issue. Whether or not Lehigh or Lafayette will be worth loans to you is a thornier problem, but I think you and your family don't have to worry too much about you going to school with "that sort of people".</p>

14

<p>Thank you oldman, I was wondering when someone would question the inherent flaw in this conversation. Anovice, I think you are confusing wealthy folks and spoiled brats. I went to Harvard from the ghetto, sure the wealthy were going to being something to deal with. Wrong. The kids from the wealthiest families tended to have good solid values. Their families had taught them that wealth is used to improve the world. On the other hand there were spoiled, indulged brats, many of whom were people with something to prove from families with little money, just bad values. </p>

<p>When I toured the ivies and top LACs last year, I did not see any kids tripping across campus in Manolos or Choos. I'm sure there are a few everywhere, but they can be easily avoided given the advanced warning those heels approaching give!</p>

<p>Bottom line, it really is best for anyone who wants to have a career in the real world to meet and learn to live with all types. I have a feeling you'll have different stereotypes after 4 years at college.</p>

15

<p>And Anovice, even as adults, it's mostly not the rich wearing the Manolos, it's the wannabes.</p>

16

<p>You are wise to consider economic diversity in your school decision, but it should not be the only criterion you use. It would appear that you are planning on an engineering major, so Lehigh and Lafayette are good choices. So is Smith, and for aeronautical engineering, which I suspect is one of your favored fields, so is Syracuse.</p>

<p>Outside of large state universities, there are not that many super-diverse schools among first-rate engineering choices. And at the large state schools, there will be more rich, annoying white people than at Lehigh and Lafayette, because there are more of everything at those schools.</p>

<p>Assuming that your favorites are matches and/or safeties, and that U Md is your safety home uni, I think you will have some good options come April.</p>

<p>As for your question about whether or not a $40,000 school is better for you than a $20,000 school, you are the only person that can answer that question. But do remember that a grad school degree may end up being more important than your undergrad degree, and if you do well in college, I suspect that any of the schools on your list would be a reasonable step toward a very good grad school. (Not sure about University of South Carolina, but that is only because I don't know anything about it.)</p>

17

<p>saw your post on another thread. . .Union College is marginally more diverse than Lehigh and Lafayette and less selective. Not sure if their engineering offerings line up with your interests but you might check it out.</p>

18

<p>Oldman - I don't think of Wesleyan and W&L as being "two sides of the same coin", at all. That would imply that W&L is a hotbed of conservative political activism. It clearly isn't. No one is charging the barricades of W&L for the sake of privatizing Social Security; no one is blockading the Dean's office to demonstrate their concern for deeper tax cuts. Wesleyan and Washington and Lee are both great schools where people study hard and party often, but, the real difference between them is not ideology, but, what people choose to talk about outside of class. When liberals get together the tendency is to talk about what is going on in society. When conservatives get together the tendency is to talk about what is going on in their own back yards. In fact, any intrusion of "politics" into that back yard is apt to be met with resentment. And who can blame them? With Republicans in control of all three branches of government there isn't a lot of room for self-doubt or introspection. Leave that for the liberals. A budding Karl Rove or Newt Gingrich would die of boredom at a so-called "conservative college", not because there are so few people like them--but, because there are so many.</p>

19

<p>ok....but what I poorly expressed is that when one speaks of "diversity" does that mean varying colors, ethnicity, money or what? Diversity of thought/ideas/opinion ought to be the goal. It is not clear to me that this is achieved by schools that boast of "inclusiveness" or "multiculturalism".</p>

20

<p>"Diversity of thought" is clearly an idea that needs to be revisited. A hundred years ago it was thought that Freedom of Thought (in the form of tenure and faculty associations like the AAUP) was enough to ensure diversity of opinion. But, something has happened to this country over the past thirty years or so. Political opinion does seen to have polarized, especially according to where you live. Thirty years ago the conventional view was that geographical diversity was passe, and that there wasn't much difference between middle class kids from the Midwest, South or New England. Perhaps it's time to question that particular bit of conventional wisdom.</p>