<p>I had a quick question about the importance of what college or university you attend for undergraduate studies on your acceptance to law school. I have heard that for law school in particular, what undergraduate university and the type of caliber school it is plays a more heightened role for law school acceptance than for some other graduate studies. I.E. It bout easier to get accepted to one of the better law schools in the nation coming from a more "elite" private university than a decent public school. </p>
<p>I ask this as I was accepted to Duke, Georgetown School of Foreign Service, Emory, and UNC Chapel Hill. I do not have any particular interest in attending Duke or Emory as they are not as oriented towards what I wish to study, which is international relations and eventually international law (I am a Swedish and French citizen, trilingual, hence my interest). This leaves me with Georgetown SFS, my number one choice as I find the school provides me with exactly what I want to study and wonderful resources, and UNC Chapel hill, to which I received a half ride. My grandparents are going to help me out substantially paying for college, so I would be able to afford to attend Georgetown for undergraduate, but would then have to take out some loans to afford law school. I was wondering if I should make this commitment to attend a top university for undergraduate school in the hopes of attending a better law school, or save my money, go to UNC to which I have to pay substantially less due to the scholarship, which is obviously a slightly less competitive public school. If I went to UNC, I would most likely have to take out much fewer loans, if any when it comes to affording for law school. Thanks.</p>
<p>^I think "respectable" extends to all top 50, maybe all top 100 schools. Honestly, there are kids from nearly every major state university represented at Harvard Law, Yale and so on. The rule of thumb is: Do the best you can wherever you go, and you have a shot...provided your LSATs are good.</p>
<p>I understand this, but do you think that the top law schools accept a much larger proportion of its students from universities such as Duke, Georgetown, Ivies, etc. than, say, a UNC? The top couple of students at every large public school has an excellent shot at reaching those good law schools. But would a top 20% student from a top school have a larger chance than a top 20% student at a large public school?</p>
<p>It depends significantly on the LSAT, even more than GPA. If all things are equal between two said students, then the law school will seriously consider recommendations and soft factors. Nepotism or undergraduate preference won't keep someone out of a top law school. I'd go to Georgetown or UNC, if you want to do IR (actually, I'd go to Hopkins, which is what I did). But if I were you, SFS or UNC.</p>
<p>Years ago, the LSAT was considered 60% of the equation and I suspect it was even more. Between a Harvard student with gentleman's B's and a noname U student with straight A's, with both having the same LSAT, it would probably be a toss up.</p>
<p>I get the sense that top schools like finding that first generation in college never been more than 100 mile from home student with straight A's from an undistinguished school. But they are only going to compromise so much on the LSAT.</p>
<p>^keep in mind Harvard and a bunch of other elite schools had tremendous grade inflation during the 80s and 90s...not so much now, but I hear it remains. So getting B's at harvard would probably take you out of the running right off the bat. I have yet to see someone with a 3.2 or lower be accepted to H-Bomb.</p>
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I was wondering if I should make this commitment to attend a top university for undergraduate school in the hopes of attending a better law school, or save my money, go to UNC to which I have to pay substantially less due to the scholarship, which is obviously a slightly less competitive public school
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<p>Even if you buy into the US News rankings (which you should not), Georgetown is only ranked a few places above UNC. Georgetown is ranked 23rd, while UNC is ranking 27th. Unless there is some compelling reason to choose Georgetown over UNC that justifies the additional expense, I would save the money for law school. I see no way to justify the extra $100,000 - $150,000 in expense. I suspect that you might find UNC more competitive than you give it credit for.</p>
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I understand this, but do you think that the top law schools accept a much larger proportion of its students from universities such as Duke, Georgetown, Ivies, etc. than, say, a UNC? The top couple of students at every large public school has an excellent shot at reaching those good law schools. But would a top 20% student from a top school have a larger chance than a top 20% student at a large public school?
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It depends significantly on the LSAT, even more than GPA.
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<p>This is correct. And the reality is that the guy in the top 20% of his class at Harvard is probably going to do better on the LSAT than the guy in the top 20% of his class at UNC. But there's no law that this has to be the case. The UNC guy could very well do better, in which case he would have the advantage in admissions</p>
<p>tyr - one of the main reasons why Georgetown is ranked so low on it's overall rankings by US News rankings, which are crazy anyways, is due to it's low overall endowment. The school grew drastically in the 80s but did not collect much money earlier in its existance. Georgetown is considered one of the top private university along with others such as Duke, some of the lower Ivies, WashU, etc, especially the School of Foreign Service, for which the University is best known for. All those schools are only a notch below HYP. Georgetown is no doubt a more reputable university than UNC.</p>
<p>You guys have noted some interesting arguments, and it's going to be a difficult decision, I'll see what I end up doing. Surrounding yourself with other brilliant students at a smaller private university might in turn help your academic studies, while at a much larger public university there may be more distractions and require you to work independently more in order to achieve success. I wonder if this plays a large factor into the level of success you achieve.</p>
<p>I do not question that Georgetown is a fine school. It is. However, I think you are fooling yourself if you think it is qualitatively better than UNC in most areas (both schools will have their own strengths and weaknesses). However, if you think it is worth more than $100,000 more than UNC (in addition to loans and interest for law school), then have at it. Just don't make the decision in the mistaken belief that it will make an appreciable difference in where you might be admitted to law school. What will make a difference is the way you apply yourself wherever you choose to go.</p>
<p>Yeah, point noted. How you apply yourself to wherever you finally decide to attend is the most important factor that will no doubt influence your success. I do think, however, that for what I want to do, international relations, SFS is a better fit than UNC, which is more science and pre-med oriented. I also think that since the SFS has only a couple of hundred of students in it, a smaller class size and more intimate relationships with professors and students, this might benefit me. I feel that I learn better in this type of environment, whereas UNC, based on student accounts at a visit, have larger lecture sized classes, which I think I might find to be more difficult.</p>
<p>Also, do you think that it would be easier to make yourself stand out for law school admissions in a smaller private university (G'Town has approx. 5000 students) or a larger public school (UNC has over 17,000 students). Also, I was wondering how hard it is to adapt to going to a private university that attracts more valedictorians and students that placed well in high school. Since many students are no doubt going to be very studious and hard workers, is it harder to do well when compared to your classmate, and achieve a higher GPA. UNC no doubt has tons of brilliant students and valedictorians as well, but private universities tend to have a higher concentration of them.</p>
<p>You have pointed out some factors that, if true, might make Georgetown a better fit for you. However, this was not your original question, which focused on whether you would be better off at Georgetown with respect to law school admissions. If your goal is law school, I still think the question is whether the differences in UNC and Georgetown make Georgetown worth the extra money for undergraduate school. Only you and your family can decide that.</p>
<p>By your reasoning, it would seem to be easier to stand out in the larger school, since is does not have as high a concentration of brilliant students and valedictorians. This may be true on a percentage basis and I can see an argument being made for it being easier to stand out at the larger school. However, I think you would find that UNC, in absolute numbers, has at least as many brilliant students as Georgetown. Standing out at either school would require significant effort.</p>
<p>tyr - Yes, I understand exactly what you're saying. I think that in Georgetown's undergraduate school, about 50-60% of the students were valedictorians at their respective high schools. So say, there are 2,500 valedictorians out of 5000, there may very well be 2,500 valedictorians at UNC, but this would be out of 17,000 students. So would being ranked 2,600 out of 5000 at Georgetown look worse than being 2,600 out of 17,000 at UNC, since the proportion of valedictorians at Georgetown is much higher when compared to the total number of students. I don't know if that makes sense the way that I worded it, but it does in my head anyways :p. I seems like it would be harder to get near the top of the class at Georgetown than UNC.</p>
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I think that in Georgetown's undergraduate school, about 50-60% of the students were valedictorians at their respective high schools.
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<p>Do you have a source for this information? I find that statistic a little hard to believe. </p>
<p>As far as ranking, I do not think it that important how you rank in reference to the total number of students at a school. What is important is your GPA and LSAT and how thay compare to others from the school applying to law schools.</p>
<p>in terms of whether it's worthwhile to go to a school you prefer for undergrad and incur debt for law school, I would say yes. You might find out that you don't actually want to be a lawyer, and then your whole purpose for sucking it up and going to UNC (not that there's something wrong w/ UNC, but the poster obviously prefers Gtown) would be moot! Since your chances of getting into the law school of your choice are pretty similar regardless of whether you attend UNC or Gtown, you're probably better off going to the one who will better prepare you for other careers, should you choose not to pursue law, and it sounds like for you that's Gtown.</p>
<p>Also, nearly all law students incur substantial debt to attend law school. If you end up working at a large firm, like most other graduates of top law schools, you'll pay off the debt pretty easily, and many top schools have loan repayment programs should you decide to do public interest. If your grades and LSAT scores don't turn out good enough to get into one of these schools, that's a different story...but you can deal with that in a couple years if necessary. No need to make your plans for now based on "what if I still want to be an attorney but I can only get into lower-tier places?"</p>
<p>tyr - This statistic was provided to me during the mandatory interview during the admissions process. The interviewer was given the number by Georgetown for him to read off when he was sharing certain stats about the university and how difficult it is to get in, etc. and how I should not feel bad if I am not accepted.. I may have misheard my interviewer and it might have included both valedictorians and salutatorians, although I am rather certain it was only the former, as I remember being extremely shocked at how high the number was. One of my father's colleague's daughter is a junior at Georgetown,and my father told me that his colleague told him the same statistic for the number of valedictorians when I told him about following the interview.</p>
<p>Stacy - You do bring up some excellent points since it is entirely possible that I could change my course of study. Georgetown is no doubt my number one choice and the SFS is the school I have wanted to attend all along during the long collect applications process. But it is still a heck of a lot of money so I have to make sure that I am making the right decision.</p>
<p>With respect, I think the equation is a little more complex than you present. I agree that the OPs choice of schools should not be entirely dependent on future admission to law school. At the same time, however, at least some consideration should be given to the possibility since it is currently what the OP is considering. In my opinion, the choice should not be based solely on the preference of one school over the other, but should include some consideration of the incremental cost of one over the other. Again, I suggest the question is whether Georgetown provides value justifying the significant additional cost. I dont suggest an answer to that question as it should be a decision made by the OP after consideration of all factors.</p>
<p>I think you also minimize the burden of repaying substantial educational debt. Yes, a lot of young lawyers have a lot of it, but that doesnt make having to repay the debt, plus interest, any less onerous. To pay an educational debt of $100,000 over a ten year period would require a payment in the range of $1,000 per month. The phase golden handcuffs that has been used to describe jobs in biglaw has more than an element of truth to it. </p>
<p>NCStudent12,</p>
<p>I think the statistic is that 51% of the valedictorians who applied were admitted, not that 51% of the students were valedictorian. I do not find a statistic as to have many of the admitted valedictorians actually chose to attend. It is easy to see how this could be confusing. This is not to question the fact that Georgetown is a well respected school with competitive admission standards.</p>