In love, but not completely sure

Colleges and Universities A-Z Williams College
1

<p>Hi, I’m a senior, and very much in love with Williams. I think that I fit pretty well with the college, but I’m not positive. I want to apply early decision, especially since I’m not totally sure I could get in otherwise, but I have a few reservations…</p>

<li><p>I want to be sure that I’m right for Williams/it’s right for me. I love reading, writing, I’ve been performing in Shakespeare plays for…9 years, I think, I love intense discussions, and canoeing and hiking. I love meeting and hanging out with interesting people and chilling in coffee shops. I like to party it up (haha) occasionally, too. I’m smart, passionate and pretty quirky. Am I Williams-y?</p></li>
<li><p>The Jock Factor. I love canoeing and hiking and all that, but I’m just not a sports/go to the gym type person. Am I going to feel out of place? Am I going to be the minority?</p></li>
<li><p>I love hard work and I love learning. I love impassionated, intellectual discussions of difficult/thought provoking concepts. However, I don’t like tons and tons of 4 million page essays. How hard/work intense are the classes? (I know this is a pretty dumb concern; I’m just interested in some type of response.)</p></li>
<li><p>Isolation-- Do you all go nuts? </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Thank you SO MUCH for your response if you choose to post. I really, really appreciate anything you can tell me. : )</p>

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<p>Are...we the same person?</p>

3

<p>Pretty much we are, because I just read your transcript-y type thing and I worked in a bakery last year! And should have this year, too, but my boss is a mess (ahem, pot head) and had to sell the business. </p>

<p>And yes, because we both worked in a bakery, we are the same person. Also, the editor in chief of literary magazine thing. But that's not as important. : P</p>

4

<p>Hi kids!</p>

<p>My son sounds just like you. Not jocky, loves canoe trips, loves Shakespeare (was Oberon in MSND), loves learning, loves discussions. Guess where he goes to school? Williams.</p>

<p>He's a freshman so I can't say anything about the isolation. He's been happy this month. And busy. He joined orchestra, choir, environmental club and signed up for instrument lessons (which means practicing.) He couldn't do this in a more distracting environment. D goes to Barnard and NYC is so enticing she doesn't have time for all these extracurriculars.</p>

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<p>kharoe, My son graduated from Williams last year. He shared many of your characteristics -- involved in the arts, outdoorsy but not into organized sports, deeply intellectual but not a grind. He wanted a college that would provide a intense intellectual stimulation plus a fun and friendly community. He was not disappointed. </p>

<p>It's difficult to gauge the amount of studying that goes on at Williams. Kids are driven to excel and do spend a lot of time at the books. They also spend a lot of time on their interests and activities. Both are important. (Plus socializing and hanging out in the common room.)</p>

<p>A lot depends on the grade point that you are aspiring for. Maintaining a B or B+ average is reasonably accessible. Getting A's requires a lot of effort.</p>

<p>The isolation question is also relative. Williamstown is what it is, a New England village in a profoundly beautiful natural setting. The Williams community provides a ton of activities -- Theater, hiking, and canoeing included. However, if you want the buzz of a city or the convenience of a suburb, you're not going to find it in Williamstown.</p>

<p>Try to overnight before you take the ED plunge. Talk to some juniors and seniors and ask them if they had to do it again would they choose Williams. This was a question that I asked all of my son's friends at graduation. They may be an especially easy to please group :) but I got a 100% yes, in a heartbeat.</p>

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<p>mythmom...if I may ask...on another thread you offered that Barnard is at least as good a school as if not better than Williams based on its relationship with Columbia and your assertion than Barnard is more rigorous academically than Williams...if you s is a first year and has been in class for less than a month how did you come to that conclusion?</p>

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<p>Thank you all so much! What you've said has been very helpful. : )</p>

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<p>windy: I came to that conclusion based on how much easier and more pop culture his first semester courses are than hers were. He is not in all frosh courses, either. I did not mean to dis Williams, because both D and I sometimes think the academic rigor at Barnard is insane. It was just an observation.</p>

<p>Concrete example: Classics 101 at Williams: The Trojan War. Besides all the usual suspects in reading material, required: screening of the movie Troy (inaccurate rendition) and Fight Club (pop culture, I teach this material myself, can't see the relevance.) Barnard would never field a course as general as the Trojan War, and if it did, the movies would be documentary-style screenings based on new/relevant research in area or shown to show falsity of pop culture image. You see, more academic. That was not approach at Williams.</p>

<p>I am sure S will enjoy his studies at Williams very much and learn a lot; D sometimes wants to tear out her hair. However, by perusing catalogue at length and comparing courses I did come to the conclusion that Williams is not treating every course as a Pre-PhD scholarly, academic course and Barnard is. </p>

<p>As a college professor myself, I do feel qualified to make this assessment. I meant no disrespect, and I did qualify my remarks I believe, by saying if anything Barnard is more rigorous. Or maybe I didn't.</p>

<p>windy: You seem to be offended. No offense or criticism was intended; just a comparison.</p>

<p>Feel free to PM to discuss this further.</p>

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<p>Interesting. Considering that the admission standards at Barnard are much lower that those at Williams it is surprising that you believe the students there to be more capable than those at Williams. It could I suppose be focus of curriculum. Barnard does not have a very diverse student body and perhaps that allows them to offer more specialized courses. Of course you may be the only person on the planet that thinks that Williams and Barnard are on par but you are entitled to your opinion. As far as your degree being the proof of your offering, it is not. I have a doctorate also and all that means is that I might be capable of better framing what are still my own biases.</p>

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<p>I didn't say Barnard students were more capable; I do think the schools are on a par. I not only have a docorate, I spend my life teaching college. I also did not say the Barnard education was better or its students better; I merely said the courses are more rigorous in their design. If you look at reading lists, etc. you will see that this is a matter of fact, not opinion. In addition, Barnard students take five courses a semester, not four. There is no winter session to lighten the load.</p>

<p>I obviously think Williams is a wonderful school or I would not be sending my son there or encouraging others to go.</p>

<p>You seem to have quite a chip on your shoulder; if you think rankings are so important, feel free. </p>

<p>In addition, my D takes more than half her courses at Columbia and finds Barnard classes more rigorous, as do most of the student bodies (though they are very similar.) Reed is very rigorous as well despite its rankings.</p>

<p>I am not speaking out of bias. My opinion may be wrong but I have no bias toward either school; I think they are both wonderful schools.</p>

<p>BTW: This debate is completely off topic for this thread so I will not respond to your comments again.</p>

<p>To the rest here: Williams is a wonderful school. Your love is justified.</p>

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<p>ouch! see what happens when I use the "search" function?</p>

<p>Did mythmom really say Barnard students were more capable?
Barnard avg. class stats ARE lower than Williams, that's an objective fact. Which is not to say there isn't plenty of overlap, or that every Barnard student is standing around wearing a dunce cap.</p>

<p>Williams and Barnard were not on par for my daughter.She found Barnard to be superior, for her needs, and elected not apply to Williams. Who knows if she would have been admitted; her stats were within range. But on her criteria she found Williams relatively lacking. She felt that Barnard had superior offerings in the particular areas that interested her the most. She strongly preferred Barnard's location to Williams' comparatively isolated location; that was a big deal. She liked the fact that, while still preserving a more intimate environment, any shortfall in Barnard's offerings could be supplemented by taking courses at Columbia, whereas Williams, what you see is what you get. She also did not identify as a Williams "type", based on her preconceived notion of what that is (preppy, jock-y, etc. Not saying she was right, she didn't even visit).</p>

<p>There are probably other people on the planet who may also evaluate these schools differently than you do. US News does not define every individual's personal criteria. </p>

<p>Student capability is a different matter than rigor of courses. They are clearly correlated, but this correlation is undoubtedly not perfect. It would be possible to imagine a top school with many students who do athletics taking it a bit easier than another top school where students study all the time. For example,to me, Swarthmore generally has a harder-edge reputation in this regard than Williams has. Whether this is actually the case here or not, I have no idea. but it's not inconceivable, to me. U Chicago is an institution that is known for the rigor of its courses, but its admission stats are also lower than Williams's. In fact they are quite similar to Barnard's.</p>

<p>It may also be the case that Barnard's curriculum is heavily flavored by its interrelationship with Columbia. Barnard profs. must pass a Columbia tenure process, and the students share course enrollment. So this may have some influence on what goes on there.</p>

<p>Or, mythmom may be mistaken.</p>

<p>Mythmom's impressions,as expressed, were not "biases" to my mind, they were her unbiased impressions following some limited review. Perhaps arrived at a little hastily to be making firm conclusions from them, and that's what you would be legitimately objecting to, seems to me.</p>

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<p>I'm not sure what this is a reaction to. "Did mythmom really say Barnard students were more capable? " No, she didn't. I don't see where she said anything prejudicial to the students of either school, so I'm confused as to what this is about.</p>

<p>And her experience with both of these schools sure doesn't seem limited.</p>

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<p>I will say once and for all I did NOT say Barnard students were stronger than Williams students. Nor did I say Barnard is a better school.</p>

<p>This is turning into a game of telephone!</p>

<p>Edit: This debate is not relevant to the OP at all!</p>

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<p>mythmom
Member</p>

<p>Join Date: May 2007
Location: Coastal village, Suffolk County, NY
Threads: 1
Posts: 715 nyc: I don't agree with variation of LAC's, even if they're twenty spaces a part. Case in point: D attends Barnard. One of her majors is at Columbia, one at Barnard. Both are part of the same college experience. Columbia University #10 for national universities; Barnard College #30 LAC. How does this make any sense? In addition, S is at Williams, #1 school. If anything, Barnard is more rigorous. I don't think the ranking say much about quality of an education. It's like judging a person based on arbitrary data like height, weight, length of hair, color of hair, color of eyes. This data goes on a driver's license but doesn't say much about the qualities we might really care about.</p>

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<p>Windy,</p>

<p>Are you playing a game of .... gotcha! to the detriment of the original poster or playing out a vendetta against mythmom because she doesn't genuflect before Williams' #1 rating, although she has repeatedly asserted what a wonderful school Williams is?</p>

<p>IMO your citation supports each of mythmom's assertions. No where does she mention either Williams' students or Barnard's students nor the overall value of a Williams or Barnard education. The furthest she goes is to say is that PERHAPS Barnard's classes are more rigorous, "if anything" indicating the subjunctive mood which indicates that this hypothetical is a pure marginal speculation. Furthermore, "more rigorous" does not equal better except in the mind of an oversimplifier.</p>

<p>You have taken this quote out of context from the thread whose only point was to discuss the merits of ratings and her comments were only meant in this light, not as normitive comments about either school.</p>

<p>Why are you so defensive and belligerent? One would think that with a doctorate, your reading skills and understanding of logic would be better than this.</p>

<p>Windy, you really ARE beating a dead horse. Give it up and let the thread revert to what it's supposed to be. Your nastiness is giving Williams a bad name and I also have a child at Williams.</p>

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<p>. Please try to be more accurate. Mythmom does in fact mention Williams students and Barnard students. She talks about her son, a Williams student and her daughter, a Barnard student, and offers their limited experiences as a proxy for the student bodies of the respective schools. Her point is that the rankings of schools is meaningless only as it relates to LACs and offers as proof of this, the unassailable ratings of national universities (i.e. Columbia at #10). I also have a child at Williams. As to the original post it is highly insulting. Point 2...the Jock factor?...I beg your pardon... Point 3...is it possible to have an intellectual conversation at Williams? Point 4...does the isolation make you all go nuts??? Let’s not try to limit discourse even if we hold divergent opinions. However if you are interested in curtailing banter which you find unpleasant, Barnard (Columbia) is playing host tomorrow to one of the worlds most notorious terrorists Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad so maybe that would be a better place to start.</p>

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<p>Wow.</p>

<p>For one thing, she didn't say anything about the student bodies, but rather about the rigor of classes as determined by each respective institution, not by its students. If Barnard wants to work it's students to the bone, and Williams prefers the students to have a more laid back experience, confident that they will learn as much, how is this in any way a comment on the student bodies.</p>

<p>And what do you care what her opinion is anyway, and why did you introduce it to this thread? You seem to be in a very unpleasant attack mode, which she certainly hasn't been.</p>

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<p>I wouldn't misunderestimate Williams' academic rigor based on this professor's choice of supplementary material. </p>

<p>Classics 101 is actually a **comparative literature **class,not a history class. This, according to the catalog, is the professor's objective:

[quote]
The Trojan War" may or may not have taken place near the end of the Bronze Age (c1100), but it certainly provided poets, visual artists, historians, philosophers, and many others in archaic and classical Greece (750-320) with a rich discourse in which to engage questions about gender, exchange, desire, loss, and remembrance, and about friendship, marriage, family, army, city-state and religious cult. This discourse of "The Trojan War" attained a remarkable coherence yet also thrived on substantial variations and changes over the 300-400 years of Greek literature we will explore, a dynamic of change and continuity that has persisted through the more than two millenia of subsequent Greek, Roman, Western, and non-Western participation in this discourse

[/quote]
</p>

<p>She goes on to note that she will screen several movies (Troy, Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?, Gods and Monsters, Fight Club, In the Bedroom, Grand Illusion, Zorba the Greek) presumably to generate discussion on how ancient themes endure in Pop culture. </p>

<p>Also mentioned is "More than half the course will be devoted to the Homeric Iliad and Odyssey, after which we will read brief selections from lyric poetry (e.g. Sappho of Lesbos) and then several tragedies (e.g. Aeschylus' Oresteia, Sophocles' Ajax, and Euripides' Trojan Women). " so it's unlikely that her focus will be entirely from the Pop culture angle.</p>

<p>I don't want to get into a comparison between Barnard and Williams because I think the differences are so extreme that it's hard to even find an overlap in preference. I do not, however, have any reservations about Williams' academic rigor and intensity, vis a vis Barnard, Swarthmore or any other institution.</p>

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<p>Re: Windy "However if you are interested in curtailing banter which you find unpleasant, Barnard (Columbia) is playing host tomorrow to one of the worlds most notorious terrorists Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad so maybe that would be a better place to start."</p>

<p>You're right. Better we should only listen to pleasant nice people that we agree with. That sure would be in keeping with America's current patriotic and chauvinistic bent to all things generic and affable. Let's say no to all ideas that we find odious and objectionable and feel secure in our own self enclosed confidence in all things American and simplified so that the dialogue get's watered down to such a degree that we have peace, security, and prosperity. </p>

<p>Aah, but we digress from the intent of this thread and me-thinks we have lost the interest of the original questioner. No biggie. Let's just spout our spoutings.</p>

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<p>Not my issue, but:</p>

<p>"As to the original post it is highly insulting. Point 2...the Jock factor?...I beg your pardon... Point 3...is it possible to have an intellectual conversation at Williams? Point 4...does the isolation make you all go nuts??? "</p>

<p>I don't think OP was making allegations for purposes of insulting anyone, just trying to get some concerns addressed based on stuff they've read/heard, and hopefully knocked out of the box by you. </p>

<p>But I don't think you have to worry about it anymore.</p>