Income Levels at Top Colleges (Mini, have you seen this?)

Parents Forum
41

<p>I think that if the "top" schools were more confident in their ability to produce "top" students, they would accept more students that might not have had "every advantage".</p>

<p>to try and explain my viewpoint I am going to use our school district.
We have approx 2,000 students who have been indentified as "gifted" these students parents are generally middle to upper income, often well educated and have given their kids every advantage, the kind of students who will attend top colleges.
We have 6,000 students who have been indentified as "special ed" these students parents aren't as well educated, many low income, don't speak english and are struggling.
I see the parents of the gifted kids as very effective advocates in the school district and have succeeded in procuring the right programs for their kids.
The parents of the special ed students on the other hand, are often intimidated by the district & trust authority to "do the right thing".
There is a high school where everyone wants their student to attend. It has the highest numbers of students in the gifted population in the district, they are drawn by the large numbers of AP courses, the inspired teachers and community support. Every year, they have students that attend and do well at top schools.
The top students, , are already going to do well no matter where they attend high school. Their parents provide them with enrichment classes, travel and a home in a schmancy neighborhood.
It is the students like my daughter, that really highlight the difference that a top school can make. She had been in special education, made no progress in several subject according to her teachers, had behavior issues and while we try, we aren't able to give the support that a better situated family can.
Once she transferred to this other school however, she began to thrive, to get straight A's and to really be engaged in her education. For her, and for other students of disadvantaged backgrounds, the academic setting is going to make all the difference in the world. If more students, whether in K-12 or after, who were economically disadvantaged, were given the advantage of a good education, this is going to make much more of a difference in our society in the long run, than giving upper income students the justification to retain the status quo.</p>

42

<p>Mini, I can accept the fact a pyramid exists in admissions. I understand your desire to turn the whole process upside down, but I have a hard time following your entire logic. </p>

<p>The schools DO make adjustments for race, socio-economical, and a few other factors. That being said, a student who has a GPA of 3.5 scores or a SAT of 1200 has LOWER statistics. In fact, I can almost guarantee that student who is expected to score a 1200, based on his profile, and scores a 1400 will have a HUGE bonus in his file. </p>

<p>Let's be frank here: the students who are smart enough to file an application to Harvard and Mount Holyoke are not that naive. There may be exceptions but the poorest and worst prepared tend to look at other schools than the ones adorning the first pages of the USNews reports.</p>

43

<p>Backhand, my first year at Harvard was tough, but that was more about me than anything else. I came from a family that was phobic about whites and the rich. My parents warned me over and over to watch out for the rich white boys who would surely try to take advantage of me. To grow up in my neighborhood was to believe you only became rich by lying and stealing from the poor. So there was a major cultural adjustment. </p>

<p>My freshman year roomie (and best friend to this day) was a wealthy, white legacy. I could not accept her kindness and inclusion at first. I was not going to be anyone's token! Suffice it to say I got a grip and opened myself to everyone. Then I fell in love with the institution and the experience. And I relished the exposure to the wider world. Forget that she had a mansion with a swimming pool, I had seen that on the Beverley Hillbillies. What I had never seen was so much food in a home!</p>

<p>Many of the blacks in my day had been part of A Better Chance and programs whereby they had been on scholarships at top high schools and given support since middle school. There were many of us, however, that needed to learn study skills from scratch and drop views we held from our previous cultural isolation. Our professors and fellow students could not have been more generous.</p>

44

<p>"Too many International movers and shakers, Momsdream.... eh? lol yep."</p>

<p>Yes, being surrounded by the sons and daughters of CEOs is of little significance if you don't have the experience to understand the issues and needs of the people who work for them.</p>

45

<p>"Good point strick. Sounds like it's simply gene pool. Do the kids of a plumber who makes $300,000 (trust me, there's lots of them in LA!) score as high as those of a $300,000 executive?"</p>

<p>If the plumber knows how to dial 1-800-Princeton Review they do.</p>

46

<p>"Let's be frank here: the students who are smart enough to file an application to Harvard and Mount Holyoke are not that naive. There may be exceptions but the poorest and worst prepared tend to look at other schools than the ones adorning the first pages of the USNews reports."</p>

<p>You are so far off, I'd hardly know where to begin. Most Pell Grant students, while in high school, don't know that Mount Holyoke, Amherst, Smith, Brown, or Dartmouth exist. And their parents know even less. They have heard of Harvard, but it doesn't occupy their universe. Unless representatives of those schools show up on their doorstep, on the doorstep of their GC (if there even is one), and at the doors of the high school repeatedly, they wouldn't know they were even there. File an application? And as for even imagining that they might be places they could consider, or afford, well, might just as well be talking about Mars. (And they are often right, of course, a scholarship that includes require work-study and summer contribution doesn't help much if your family is depending on you for income. Yay for Ruth Simmons at Brown for having figured that one out.) </p>

<p>The schools DO make allowances for family incomes and such. Very much so. Affirmative action for rich white folks (Don't get me wrong: I'm not talking about middle income folks here, just rich ones (defined for this person as top 5%ers, those with family incomes a mininum of three times the national median). I suspect at HYP, middle income folks get admitted at rates lower than high or low-income ones.) Two points for the needed equestrian; got to make sure there are enough fencers and squash players. Developmental admits. Legacy preferences. Speaks three languages. Went to the prestigious summer science program. Has a letter of recommendation from the Senator. Dean went sailing with Dad on his yacht off Nantucket. This is indeed a "higher class of applicants", and they have the test scores to prove it.</p>

47

<p>"Thank you Kirmom. This notion of what schools owe any group is crazy. Sure, public colleges have to do different things, but private colleges are private. "</p>

<p>Zagat, that wasn't the point at all. Nobody has ever said that private colleges owe anybody anything - so let's not get sidetracked with the targeted insertion of buzz-words not used as part of the original argument. Colleges shouldn't beat their chests about how great of a job they are doing with diversity if they haven't addressed this importanct factor. And, those of us who in the business of CHOOSING, will choose accordingly. We all use our own criteria. If this isn't part of your equation, that's fine. For some of us, this is an important factor. We don't feel OWED...we feel empowered to make choices.</p>

48

<p>"Questions about their data should be directed to them."</p>

<p>Their data, yes, but what about your interpretation of their data? </p>

<p>I note where I see this kind of information from the College Board site, it's in defense of their tests against charges that the discriminate against URMs. That makes me wonder how that might affect their interpretation of the data since they don't offer evidence for their conclusion, just this correlation.</p>

<p>I can't help but wonder how much it is a chicken or the egg kind of thing.</p>

<p>(PS, my wife and I have decent educations -- first generation -- and we make well over $100,000, but our son didn't take the SATs 3 times or get $3,000 worth of prep. I don't pretend to know what the norm is, but I don't think it's as cut and dried as claiming having access to $100,000 in income is the only cause of an additional 200 points on an SAT score.)</p>

49

<p>I think that there are other factors besides the students that impact this also. Are those in the lower economic arena being encouraged by parents, counselors, teachers to even apply to these schools. Often there is apprehension that is being communicated to the students. Parents may have never attended college and may be uncomfortable with their child going to a place where the parent would feel uncomfortable. Counselors who are used to working in schools where many students are poor often do not have the connections or information regarding opportunities at the elite schools. Students may get criticized by their friends for applying to these schools as being "show offs" or nerds. </p>

<p>Even with colleges doing active recruiting and promotion, it is still difficult to overcome these factors. The initiative that the student has to take is tremendous.</p>

<p>One of my daughter's friends is in that situation right now. She is from a single parent family, three children, no support from her father. She is at the top of her class in an inner city school where counselors are more concerned about keeping kids from killing each other than helping them go to college. Her mother did not want her to apply to any schools other than in state because of the perceived costs. She herself was afraid to apply to a top school because while she new she was smart in her environment, she doubted that she could compete either academically or socially with the type of student she would find there. Most of her friends are going to the local community college and she found no support among them when she tried to discuss other options.</p>

<p>We took her along when my daughter made college visits and somehow helped her to see that she had potential to look beyond this. She has applied to several LACs and has been accepted at one with a merit scholarship. She is still waiting on her favorite.</p>

<p>Maybe the universities could do more, but until these environmental conditions are resolved, it may be tough to change. Exposing these kids to the possibilities is key. One can't want what they don't know is available.</p>

50

<p>Mini, do you have any actual numbers about the statistics of PELL grant recipients - median SATs, median GPAs, etc.? I would be curious to see how they fall out. It could very well be that the PELL grant recipients with higher median stats in the PELL grant recipient pool ARE attending Harvard, et. al. I'd like to know how the average PELL grant student's stats at those schools compare to the median of Pell grant recipients overall.</p>

51

<p>Has anyone considered that schools use their "aid" tool to tweak diversity in different ways? The "most prestigious" schools don't offer merit aid (at least in the east), because they don't need to offer money to attract merit scholar types. They need to attract whatever it is that they want to make up their particular mix. Once you're out of that elite tier, however, you find schools throwing money hand over fist to attract the merit scholar types...they want balance, too.</p>

52

<p>I'll have to go hunt - it was reprinted by FairTest last month.</p>

<p>Back in the dark ages, I was a low-income student at Williams. I had gone to a very good high school (Stuy), and was so happy to go (and worked my tail off - not academically (Stuy was much harder than Williams as I remember) but financially, to make it possible to go. When I first got there, it was indeed like being on Mars (it being so rural didn't help.) But I really had trouble making sense of the wealth I saw all around me - and both my own perspectives and those of wealthier students were of course shaped by heavily by what had been our life experiences to date. </p>

<p>For me, "rubbing elbows" worked. My aspirations for myself - to see the world, and be part of it -- were radically opened, and much as I cavil, I am extremely grateful for that experience (at least as much, if not more so, than I am for the stellar academic environment.) My academic skills - especially my writing - took off as well. I would like to believe that I had something to offer other students, too. The college had had a long history of anti-Semitism and racism (in fact, they built their first student center in 1953 to accommodate the needs of those students shut out of fraternities, and everyone knew who they were), and though it was the late 1960s, there were still vestiges of same hanging around (not any longer, to my knowledge, for which I give them very much credit.) But I still remember stunted student class discussions, stunted because the life-experience of most of the student body was so limited. (and it was no fun to be a token, so I usually refused, and kept my mouth shut.) I honestly think that the college would have been a better place, both academically and socially, if the life experience of the students (and, I might add, the faculty) had been broader - by race, by class (and by age, but that's another story.) </p>

<p>I still think that. Now, mind you, as I've said elsewhere, if I were "King" at HYP or W, I would likely not cut down on the number of very wealthy students. I benefitted very greatly from having them around, and having wealthy students and families helps these places fulfill their institutional missions. (I would, however, make them pay fully for the privilege.) But I am concerned about the education THEY are getting - after all, they both are, and will be, the people who are running the country. (I am still smarting from John Kerry's answer to that middleclass mom in Minneapolis, essentially saying that the only poor folks he had ever known - other than those he prosecuted -- were those he had led in Viet Nam. It was such a sad commentary....)</p>

53

<p>Momsdream, I'm not so sure that a Princeton review class will make any child do well on the SAT. Better? Yes. But again, my guess is that it's really gene pool. If we take a child with a 150 IQ and train the heck out of them, they'll get a 1500 plus. But will a kid with an IQ of 100?</p>

54

<p>Here's some data that answers my above questions, although the source is a bit old (source: <a href="http://nces.ed.gov/das/epubs/pdf/2002169_es.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://nces.ed.gov/das/epubs/pdf/2002169_es.pdf&lt;/a&gt;) The study compares PEll Grant recipients to low and middle income students who did not receive Pell grants (i.e., it compares them to their income peers)</p>

<p>When examining low and middle income students ONLY (againnote, they are not comparing Pell grant recipients to ALL students at all income levels, only their relative peers):</p>

<ul>
<li><p>Pell Grant recipients were less well prepared academically than their counterparts who did not recieve a PEll grant.</p></li>
<li><p>Among students enrolled at 4 year institutions Pell Grant recipients were MORE LIKELY than non recipients (again, non-recipients refers to other low income and middle income students, NOT wealthy students) to have SAT I (or equvalent ACT) scores that fell into the lowest quartile ONLY </p></li>
<li><p>Pell grant recipients were less likely to have completed a rigorous high school curriculum than</p></li>
<li><p>Pell Grant recipients were more likely than their low income and middle income peers to attend a 4 year insitution but more likely to enroll in short term proprietary education programs aimed at career preparation.</p></li>
<li><p>They were less likely to have a high school diploma than their low and middle income peers.</p></li>
<li><p>Pell Grant recipipients were somewhat less likely than their income level peers to complete a 4 year education.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>What this indicates to me is that using the number of Pell Grant recipients enrolled in a school may not be a reliable indicator of a school's committment to providing education for lower income students. First, there are MANY low income students who do not qualify for Pell Grants. Second, Pell Grant recipients may not make a very "good bet" for colleges --- simply put, WHY would Harvard, et. al want to turn down other low income and middle income students who have better preparation and test scores for Pell grant recipients?</p>

55

<p>Just to add, PELL grant receipients can be kids who are on their own. May be kids who had a fine or even wealthy upbringing, but are disassociated from their family and on their own, living on their own.</p>

<p>momsdream;Some of the most socially compassionate and morally responsible and aware folks I've known are British. ( concerning our conversation about poor Chauncey ) This comes from the British Empire's long experience of rule in different lands. Now, one could argue those darn British, making colonies all over the world and subjecting folks to their rule. But a lesson on how to rule has been learned by them. And they do not take human rights lightly. In fact, they abolished slavery in 1756. I bet Kirmun saw something of this humanity in his/her fellow students. You can't judge a book by it's cover.</p>

56

<p>Of course. We are not talking about "any" Pell Grant students, just those who have shown, consistently through their high school careers, that they can do the work at higher powered places.</p>

<p>Most Pell Grant recipients go to community colleges.</p>

57

<p>Yes, that's another point BHG - I've seen the DOE stats for PEll Grant recipients and a high percentage tend to be "independent" students, many are employed and self-supporting. Also, the majority of Pell Grant recipients are NOT using their Pell Grants to attend 4 year institutions, but rather community college and proprietary schools where the focus is on job prep. Seems self-evident that if you are low income, you're often going to prefer a quicker route to a job than a 4 year education.</p>

58

<p>Mini, OK. But then, the question is - how many Pell Grant recipients form the "pool" of qualified students you are talking about? I still would like to know how many would fall into that category --- and what would you say the cut-off should be? A 1200 SAT? An 1100 SAT? A 1000 SAT? And what numbers of Pell Grant recipients fall into each of those categories? Only when we know the actual numbers can we say that using Pell grant recipients is an indicator of how well a job a school is doing of attracting and serving "qualified" low income students.</p>

59

<p>Kirmum,</p>

<p>I stand corrected california is #3. The majority of students in the Ivies and elite LACS on a whole are also from the NE/Mid atlantic states.</p>

60

<p>Kirmum, I guess I just don't get the connection to your analogy of the $300k plumber vs. the $300k exectuvie - and the gene pool. Are you saying that the executive has smarter genes than the plumber? </p>

<p>Maybe I should just leave that analogy alone because no matter how I turn it, it doesn't make sense. </p>

<p>If I'm a doctor, but my father was a bricklayer with a 6th grade education, where do my genes come into play? And, how do I explain my children's high SAT scores (whose genes are at play?). </p>

<p>Even in your own case, if I recall correctly, your family was very poor.....your SAT score was mediocre.....you were AA'd into Harvard. You went through Harvard and then Yale Law...became an atty with an income that probably exceeds $250k....and now your kids are high SAT scorers. That doesn't sound like genes to me....</p>

<p>unless you mean that it's just luck of the draw....some kids are just naturally smarter than others, regardless of their environments. I just don't buy that...and the data doesn't support it. The data I've seen supports that as parental income increases, SAT scores increase.</p>