And the mastery of the writing mechanics can be misleading, because it could be the result of an adult’s input. </p>
<p>I’m still thinking of the paid consultant who did “gazillions” of edits for the admission essays for her clients. I’m sure they would maintain that they only tweak the essays!</p>
<p>I think that many students lie when checking that statement on the Common Application that it is all the student’s own work. Why not? There’s plenty of lying and cheating going on for everything else in schools these days (according to surveys of students).</p>
<p>D2 is doing IB now and I just had a parent/teacher conference with all of her teachers. Her English teacher explains to us that for every major paper students usually do quite a few iterations. The kids do not just write a paper and turn it in. They do a draft, show it to him, he would let them if they are going the right direction (example, some students may reference the author’s personal background to interpret the novel - and that’s not what they are looking for). The next iteration maybe more complete, but the paragraph structure or grammar may not be correct, or supporting argument may not be sufficient. It’s only after 2-3 times that a paper is turned in. </p>
<p>In the beginning of the year, the teacher required all students to see him, but as time went on it is only at a student’s request. D2 is the best student he has (according to him), but she is the one who is in there to see him all the time. He does not see it as cheating, and he doesn’t see it as he is writing all of his students’ papers.</p>
<p>In the same spirit, I don’t see how it’s different with college essays.</p>
I agree with calmom on this. Certainly the student who receives no proofreading or feedback can say “It’s my own work.” But there’s a gray area here regarding students whose essays are proofed or even edited. Examples:</p>
<p>In our public hs, the last junior year English writing assignment is a personal statement - two preliminary drafts and a final version. Students aren’t required to use it for their primary admission essay, though many do. It’s a required assignment and the objective is academically solid. The kids are learning to write in their own voices. Should students not check off the “this is my own work” box because a teacher has had considerable input?</p>
<p>In many high schools, peer editing is part of the writing process. If we assign kids to the task of editing, how do we then tell them that it’s questionable to seek it for the most important essays they’ve ever written?</p>
<p>There’s an active “Essays” board on CC. Not that I’m saying that CC is a moral litmus test (and not that I’m saying it isn’t :)), but that indicates, to me, a widespread acceptance of editing and proofreading help as being within ethical bounds. I doubt that many parents would be willing to assist if they believed it was somehow dishonest to point out typos or grammatical goofs, or even to say “I don’t understand what this paragraph is saying.” </p>
<p>My last child is class of 2012, so I may have missed a sea change in what colleges expect regarding the essays. I do remember that some college apps used to include a statement to the effect of “we want your essay to be your own but we want you to take the time to be sure it’s your best work, so have other people take a look at it.”</p>
<p>Well, oldfort, in your d’s case, it’s the same teacher who is encouraging/facilitating/ all the iterations that is doing the grading. So that teacher has a better idea of what is and what isn’t the student’s work. </p>
<p>Now an adcom has no idea what the student started with before all the iterations/edits/rewrites, unlike your d’s teacher.</p>
<p>I am surprised that colleges don’t look at the essay on the SAT. I do think that shows whether a student can cogently express and organize ideas. I wouldn’t suggest they use it instead of the self-submitted personal essay, but as one more piece in the puzzle to get a picture of the applicant.</p>
<p>I agree with SDonCC. Receiving help on essays is fine. I just don’t feel it is alright for the application process. This is just my opinion once again!</p>
<p>Just wanted to offer a counter-point to those who are saying that if students have difficulty with writing the personal essay, they are likely to have difficulty with writing assignments in college. I think this applies to some groups of students. However, I believe that there is also a set of students who are reserved by nature and who find it difficult to write something highly personal, to be read by someone they have never met. Students in this group may be completely comfortable writing on academic topics, even expressing very personal opinions–they just don’t like writing about themselves. (Me, neither)</p>
<p>The complaint about the SAT essay is that many students take time to write a good essay, and that the SAT essay is just a quick write. Of course all the students who utilize the outside help (and those who help them) insist that the SAT essay is not representative of the student’s writing. </p>
<p>So there are two extremes – a student’s quick write SAT essay and the heavily critiqued/edited/proofread/rewritten-by-adult essay. I still maintain that the adcoms have no real way to tell if a student’s essay(s) are their own. And the savvy consultants-for-pay know all about this. Isn’t that why they are hired in the first place?</p>
<p>There is also some sort of issue (perhaps resolved?) that the college has to request a batch of SAT essays, and then it is very hard to wade through them all. I’m not sure if that is indeed true anymore, though – I remember an adcom writing that on CC some years back…</p>
<p>CTTC - actually with IB, the grading is not done by the teacher. They send certain English papers, science lab writeups to “IB center” to be graded by other people. That´s why IB diploma is more uniform, a 7 at one school is most likely the same as another school, different than AP grades.</p>
<p>I do think it´s useful to compare a student college essays with writing on SAT I.</p>
<p>I meant there is a certain standarization when it comes to grading. D2´s final English paper this year will be sent out to be graded by other people. Her physics labs are also graded by teachers outside of school.</p>
<p>Oh well. If you’re expecting me to feel bad about being full-pay, playing the ED card strategically, or “allowing” one kid to apply to the legacy school (which was completely his choice / dream – H and I actively encouraged other choices), don’t hold your breath. </p>
<p>As for your comment about my other kid’s ED school, given that it’s a school that doesn’t get a lot of play on CC, given that I don’t recognize your name, haven’t interacted with you on CC, it feels a bit stalker-ish that you looked up that school’s ED rate. But again, why is that my problem or something I should feel bad over?</p>
<p>At the conceptual level, is there a difference between a parent tutoring his kid in math, science or history, the kid going in for extra help before or after school, and a parent hiring a paid tutor to tutor the kid?</p>
<p>How about coaching the kid in how to play tennis versus hiring someone to give lessons?</p>
<p>How about buying the kid an SAT book versus paying for a private tutor or class to prep for the SAT’s?</p>
<p>My kids have never had tutors in any academic subject. They studied for their standardized tests via self-study / test prep books, not via private tutoring (NTTAWWT). D took private lessons in her sport on and off but never at an intense level. They attend a public hs where the GC’s are pleasant but overworked people who are not at the top of the game when it comes to elite colleges. My knowledge came from my overall life knowledge and through CC. I have no regrets or qualms. I have to laugh at the thought that these are “overprepped” kids. Yeah, when I’m one of the North Shore parents paying someone $40,000 to manage my kid from 9th grade on with the goal of getting into an Ivy League school, then I’ll question it. Til then – ha.</p>
<p>To the kids who can make it through the entire admissions process on their own (either because they want to or have to), I say congratulations. But, that doesn’t mean that other kids who receive help in selecting possible schools, picking essay topics or reviewing essays, or even reviewing entire applications are necessarily cheating the system. If I were an adcom, I would hope that (at a minimum) the school’s guidance counselor would assist in the school selection process and that english teachers might assist in the essay portion (a la frazzled1). As an adcom, I would hope that parents would be involved too.</p>
<p>I helped my son pick his list of schools based on his parameters, but with a discussion of why I thought he might like each school or what I thought it could offer him. He then researched the schools himself. The guidance counselor was of some help, but really could not devote the kind of time necessary to do the research. The summer before his senior year I printed out a list of essay prompts from the Common App and various schools that had their own prompts. He was going to be away for most of the summer and I wanted him to think about possible topics. I also gave him some suggestions for possible topics based on what he had said over the years and the people and events of his life.</p>
<p>His senior english class’ assignment for the first quarter of the school year was to write a college prompt essay (just like frazzle1’s kid). I saw some of her suggestions and I know that at least some of her suggestions were ignored by my son. I can’t think of anything that my wife or I added. He also did a second essay that was not reviewed by the english teacher AFAIK and, other than reading it, I don’t think that my wife or I contributed anything. The topic of the first essay was related to his intended major and an event which I wasn’t even aware of, which had sparked that interest. The topic of the second essay (at least the opening line) was suggested by something I had heard on of his friends say to him early in junior year. He took it from there.</p>
<p>IMHO, both of these essays helped him get into most of the schools (mostly extremely selective) that he applied to. They were both very much about him, what he liked to do, and what he wanted to do in college. The essay about his intended major (an unusual major) should have convinced any adcom that this was a serious interest and not something he selected because he thought that that particular department may need students. (An often asked question here on CC!)</p>
<p>If someone is being tutored, then that would be because he is having trouble understanding that certain subject. The tutoring would help him master the subject so he would be able to take the test ON HIS OWN. The same goes for playing sports. An athlete can have all kinds of training!!! That same athlete is required to try out ON HIS OWN. I can definitely relate to this one. I have seen a bunch of kids that I personally know trying out for certain teams and not make it. You would be surprised how much the parents then get involved!!! One girl that tried out for our fall volleyball team at school was put on the JV. Her parents were so mad! They met with our coach and let him know what she does on her select team. The coach didn’t change his mind. Guess what that family did… Moved to another school district!!! The girl couldn’t play this year because she moved for athletic reasons.
I am also not being critical about how anyone studies for the ACT or SAT. They still take the actual tests on their own.
Neither my brothers nor I took any classes prior to taking the ACT either. I don’t think it’s bad if someone does that though. (I also beat my brothers scores!)</p>
<p>This is all “the short view.” I did it, I did it myself, it’s done, maybe I’ll get in. (Or, “And, I got in, so there.”) Adcoms take “the long view.” Can this kid handle the academic challenges here, fit and thrive, evolve? The better the school, the more this matters. There is no one rubric. It’s holistic. The 4.0 kid who rambles through a simplistic personal opinion essay may still get in. But, he’s challenging the adcoms. </p>
<p>Think like an adcom. Integrity matters. But the ability to produce a decent app matters. They have to figure out the applicant. A decent app doesn’t happen because you got through hs, did lots of writing assignments. It’s a reflection of the kid’s judgment, as well as performance. And, it’s that judgment in an area where a 17-18 y.o. has no expertise. How many kids have crafted an application before?</p>
<p>Let’s go back to the SAT prep as an example. Maybe you did well. All on your own, no prep. Congrats. What if you didn’t score decently? Would you say, no, no, no, my scores reflect my ability, the end? I’ve taken plenty of tests in hs, I am what I am? I’m not going to do anything to improve because I have integrity! </p>
<p>Writing is rarely a static skill. It evolves, through influences. Do not let anyone take over your CA writings. But, do seek input. </p>
<p>This is not a battle between idealism and scamming. This is real life. I’d liken this to the personal interviews: you’ve been interating with people your whole life. You want to “be yourself.” But, why wouldn’t you seek some advice about what might occur in the interview and how to put your best foot forward?</p>