<p>I will be entering Princeton as freshman this upcoming fall, and I am planning on taking the Integrated Sciences program. I have a few questions about this program that I want to ask.</p>
<p>1) Is the program very interesting?
2) How demanding is it? Are there lots of exams/hw? How is the difficulty level?
3) Is this program well-recognized?
4) How are the people who enrol in this program? Are they nerdy/anti-social or cool/sociable?</p>
<p>Thank you so much!</p>
<p>hey--one of my best friends here is currently a sophomore in the Integrated program, and he absolutely loves it. It's specifically designed for people who aren't pre-meds but who want to go on to do something related to bio research. You will be team-taught by the top professors in the field, including a couple Nobel laereautes who spend months designing this program just for students like you. It is generally considered extremely demanding, but also very rewarding--by the end of sophomore year, it's now down to about 20 students, but these 20 students have been through everything together since their first lecture way back in fall 05. It's demanding mainly because of the weekly problem sets, and because the nature of the class requires you to synthesize everything together, not just do a simple physics plug and chug or a chem mass balance or something. Usually the small class gets together to do problem sets several nights a week, often having studying parties in the genomics building, complete with food and people playing some iTunes on their laptops. They work until the wee hours of the morning, but they all help each other out and share in their discoveries together. The exams, like most at Princeton, are very difficult, but of course there is a curve. My friend has managed to get an A 3 out of the 4 semesters he's been in it, I believe. </p>
<p>This program is DEFINITELY well-recognized--it's touted as the education the world needs in the 21st century--aka scientists who don't just think in one discipline, but rather connect all the ideas together for a multidisciplinary solution. There have been numerous news articles, and it was even highlighted on the main Princeton website last month. And you can tell how much they care about by who they have teaching you guys--Nobel prize winners, as I mentioned earlier. </p>
<p>The people who enroll in this program definitely are the hard-core science types, but by no means does that mean anti-social or completely nerdy. There are 1 or 2 varsity/club athletes who have managed to stick through the program, and the comraderie that develops often leads to integrated science parties on the weekends (and one year of students even ordered their own integrated science sweatshirts!) I have been to some of these integrated parties, and they are some pretty damn good parties--definitely know how to have a good time. </p>
<p>I would highly recommend it, if you are prepared to do the work--especially if you are a non-pre med prospective mol bio major, because it fulfills all of your requirements and cuts down on a lot of work (you won't have to take Genetics, Orgo, Bio Chem, etc. because it's all included in integrated).</p>
<p>why is it for non-premed students? I am almost positive that the program is for me, but I am also dead set on getting into medical school. Is it because of lower GPAs or because of a lack of necessary course requirements?</p>
<p>I'm also planning on taking the ISC. Magnum, it's not for premeds because you're probably going to get lower grades taking the ISC than you would if you took the normal premed requirement classes. GPA is incredibly important for medical school admissions. Probably even more important than high school gpa is for college admissions. Also, the organic chem requirement for medical school isn't filled by the ISC abbreviated organic chem, so you would have to take organic chem separately in addition to the ISC class, but ISC orgo fulfills the orgo prereqs for other science courses. However, the recommendations you from professors will outweigh the lower grades when applying to graduate programs in science.</p>
<p>voovi16,</p>
<p>Thanks for your helpful reply! Now I have more questions because frankly, I am a bit concerned. While what you've described about the program seems extremely interesting, I am concerned about the low GPA. I am not sure if I will want to pursue med after undergrad:S. Also, if I don't go for med and just decide to go for bioengineering or something, does GPA matter that much? I really don't know how important GPA is in getting into a good graduate school (good as in top notch).</p>
<p>Depending on how you learn, you may or may not have a higher/lower gpa than going through the normal premed classes. It is highly unlikely that you will get a 4.0 in integrated, though. GPA doesn't matter in the least for graduate schools (well you need over a 2.7 or something), what matters is recommendations. If you want to go to graduate school, ISC is definitely the place for you, as it gives you by far the best background for graduate school, and you will have amazing faculty recs, which is what matters.</p>
<p>The main reason that pre-meds are discouraged is because botstein doesn't like them (or their attitude, specifically). Grades are not discussed, and you will not know where in the class you stand until you actually get your final grade. If you needed a 100 on everything (as many premeds try to do), you would be wildly disappointed-- the average on our first test was something like a 30%. Thus, not caring about your grades is forced onto you, or you would be going through the program quite upset. Additionally, the stereotype (true in many cases, not in all) is that pre-meds care to learn for the tests, by memorizing. That would not get you far at all in integrated, as all of the books are open notes/textbook/whatever else you want to bring to the test. It's not about understanding the lectures and repeating back similar information, but rather about using what youve learned in the lectures in a totally new way.</p>
<p>Would it be good for somebody who wanted to go to grad school in some area of physics? It sounds amazing...</p>
<p>To all of those people worried about their GPAs--I know it sounds harsh, but once you get to Princeton, you realize that you will go insane if you pay too much attention to your GPA--honestly, I know how it is, I was valedictorian, 102 GPA, etc., the works--here, I work my butt off to get an A-, and I feel incredibly , incredibly lucky to get that grade. That said, take my remarks about the difficulty of integrated science in context--most engineering and science classes of normal difficulty here will have averages on exams usually from 55-60%, that's totally normal. Thus, integrated is tough, but usually in comparison to what you're used to in hgh school, not compared to the rest of Princeton. </p>
<p>The reason that it's not designed for pre-meds is that it's striving to develop good moleculary biology researchers-not people who are merely using the molecular biology major to help get them into med school. As said before, most pre-meds are not interested in actually learning for the sake of learning, but rather are caught up in the GPA race and incessantly study and memorize things, whereas integrated science is more laid-back, for people who truly find science fascinating and want to spend their rest of their lives on this stuff--i get the impression lots of pre-meds start doing it, but then realize they don't stick with it because they realize that they actually don't like science as much as they thought they did or they realize that they can finally say no to pushy parents who are encouraging a medical degree.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.princeton.edu/integratedscience/%5B/url%5D">http://www.princeton.edu/integratedscience/</a></p>
<p>they have a new website up that describes the course much better than the old one did.</p>
<p>If you are interested in biophysics, then this is a great course for you. If you are more interesting in plain physics, you may want to think about it, I know that several kids my year dropped halfway through freshman year because they didn't think that we were getting a traditional enough physics education (ironic, as the spring semester used to be nearly identical to phy 106, with some cs and chem added)</p>
<p>voovi, i disagree that ALL premeds dont truly like science and dont enjoy learnign for learning's sake. If that were the case, many of the top medical researchers in this world would not exist. I kno personally that I savor the challenge. Having been accepted into Upiit med program and HPME, I decided to go for Princeton mainly for the research oppurtunities and the cool things I could learn from ISC. I realize that managing premed in such a program may be insanely difficult, but I am willing to take the risk because part of becoming a doctor (50% atleast) is a love for science. (The other 50 is compassion). Doctors who dont love science to bits would make poor doctors. I realize your point that grades shouldn't matter for ISC students and I do agree, but is there a chance med schools may look at the grades in context of the program? Also, are there any premeds at all in the program right now? (or atleast people considering medicine as a career choice?)</p>
<p>I was thinking about being premed for a bit... the med schools that I talked to weren't too positive about it, nor was health professions advising, as they are the ones who have to explain what courses it covers. MD/Phd schools (depending on the way that they are set up) were more positive. No one in the junior class is pre-med, although one or two are looking at md/phd programs.</p>
<p>Yeah, I can't think of any pre-meds that stuck with it through the entire length of the program, because they specifically design it so that if you're pre-med, then you'll end up having to take double the course work, because you'll have to take the orgo part of integrated and then the actual orgo course for pre-med requirements. These Nobel laureates are putting so much work and effort into this course because they want to cultivate the next generation of researchers to follow in their footsteps, not doctors.</p>
<p>good luck to you!</p>
<p>heard it's an intense program. but you'll come out well-rounded. which is great.</p>
<p>Hey I have a question,
I am interested in majoring in physics.
Is this program good for preparing students who are physics major?</p>
<p>yes, there are many physics majors in the program. The first year is very good for physics majors, after that it is more tailored towards MOL majors (it fills a larger portion of the MOL requirements), but (relatively) many physics majors have successfully made it through the program.</p>
<p>do you recommend ISC for prospective engineers?</p>
<p>I just want to ask a final question.
Now, med school is something that I also am considering at the moment (although it's not very likely)
Is GPA really affected that much in this program? Would entering this program basically make it almost impossible for a student to attend a really good med school? (by really good I mean like harvard-level)</p>
<p>Integrated Sciences is probably one of the toughest courses you can take as a freshman/sophomore, so obviously it's not going to be that great for your GPA. That said, of course you're going to be getting like 50% on the exams, but there is a curve. Still, the class quickly loses about half its students because people simply don't want to put in the time and work that are required. So, when you have a class of only like 20 students, of course probably less than 10 of those are going to be getting As. And that's also why this course was designed to steer away pre-meds from signing up--they want people who are passionate about science and doing research for the rest of their life, not just people who are majoring in a science b/c they think it will prepare them for med school. The mol bio professors are pretty frustrated with 80% of people in their major going to med school, and specifically created this program to cultivate and give special attention to those biology majors who actually want to DO biology for the rest of their life.</p>