Interesting admission results from my S's top college prep school

Parents Forum
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<p>“Thus if you have lets say a score of 1440 you believe that you should have an “average” chance of acceptance.”</p>

<p>There’s another reason not to believe this: yields. More students scoring 1340 will choose Duke than those scoring 1530 (because the latter will often choose a school where their 1530 was at 25% rather than 75%). Duke knows this, and so admits more scoring 1530 than those scoring 1340. One study I saw suggested that the 67th percentile was necessary to have a 50% chance of acceptance.</p>

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<p>jfl2010 - I think you are really overstating here. Yes, there are indeed students who are admitted to “top” colleges and universities with these “other factors” taken into consideration. However, your comments understate/underestimate the number of students with top academic credentials who are not well-rounded - many of these students do not have the great extracurricular involvement, essays, or profound intellectual curiosity many schools are looking for. Perhaps in their own minds they do, but when compared to most admits in the the most selective college admissions world, I think many would be surprised by how pedestrian their applications read. I do not say this to diminish anyone’s academic achievements or personal accomplishments, but the truth is, in these most selective applicant pools, kids with stellar academic credentials are a dime a dozen - it’s the kids with these credentials AND a balanced portfolio of sustained, passionate involvement in their communities and various activities AND with profound intellectual curiosity who are much less common…and it is these “non-hooked” kids who get into places like Duke with a 1440. In addition, many of the “hooked” kids are outstanding applicants, even without their hooks…</p>

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<p>An admissions officer from Princeton and Bowdoin came to our school this year to speak to the kids and parents in 10th and 11th grade. He said this; " You want to apply to an Ivy, go ahead, but remember this of the 8-9% that are admitted, 80% are either URM, athlete, heavy donors or legacy", so basically that leaves 20% of the 8-9-% chance for the rest of the extremely competitive applicants. I for one can’t believe how many people want to throw their money away on these applications. It’s like the lottery I guess??? There are SOOOOO many other wonderful schools out there, I just don’t get it. My older S went to a state school and is now working at Sony as a game designer making an ungodly amount of money. He is only 27, no grad school. The one thing he is though, is a hard worker, that’s what it takes to make it in this world, not HPYSM etc. I have always told my kids to work hard, be a person of character, and you will get far in this life, don’t waste your time trying to be perfect… it is for the most part overrated.</p>

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<p>“80% are either URM, athlete, heavy donors or legacy…”</p>

<p>I’m sorry, but that’s just patently untrue…</p>

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<p>So why would the admissions officer make the statement if it weren’t true? To discourage applications?</p>

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<p>I understand your point, and I only have the comments from the Admission officer from Duke to go by (although I suspect his peers may very well share the same views)
This year over half of the regular admit applicants were rejected without going to committee. This was done because of the sheer number of applicants. (source: interview from Duke in The Duke Chronicle) When skimming the application the absence of the "desirable"qualities almost assuredly guaranteed a spot on the auto reject (sans a score above 1540). </p>

<p>Thus the bulk of truly considered applicants must possess the aforementioned factors in order to be considered. From this pool the admissions committee attempts to “sculpt” (what a poor choice of words) the incoming class. </p>

<p>I have no qualms with the selection process. Schools ought to let in whomever they want. It really doesn’t have to be a “fair” process. I just wish there was a little more “truth in advertising” on the part of the elites. </p>

<p>As for the brilliant, students that possess more than pedestrian qualities, you imply that all of the accepted students possess the 1450 SAT score and they have the desirable traits. While this may be true, the point I was making was that many of these traits are not traits that the student has accomplished but rather they possess by sheer luck, be it good or bad luck. (sans the oboe player or the athlete). </p>

<p>I make these observations in response to the original post which seemed to look for answers as to why many students who may have been admitted in the past seem to no longer be getting the admission invitation.</p>

<p>To me personally, while I thought it shocking, it was refreshing to hear hear the admission officer from Duke be brutally honest about something like race being a factor in admission.</p>

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<p>sorry but not untrue
validated by the interview given by the Duke Admission director in the school newspaper.
He may not have said 80% but that is his implied message.</p>

<p>To be fair though you need to include those students in the 1530 and above SAT range. They are part of that 80% as well.</p>

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<p>I’m wondering if an applicant’s “passion” must be seen to add value to the college community – an outstanding soccer player, actor, campus leader, community volunteer or scientist can bring fame and possibly fortune to the college.
What if the passion is in an area not well known and without obvious “value” to the campus?
Our kid has spent 10 years devoted to an equestrian sport called vaulting. Though it’s not well known in the US, it is recognized by the international equestrian sports organization. However, it’s not an Olympic sport, there’s no possibility of scholarships, no prize money, and virtually no career potential – kids do it because they love it. Our kid works at this 4-5 days a week year-round, plus does gymnastics, dance and weightlifting as x-training. Since no colleges offer equestrian vaulting, our kid mostly likely will have to quit once in college. And its doubtful a school would recognize the athleticism required for vaulting as something transferable to another sport at the D3 level.
With a solid B/B+ GPA and just-OK test scores, our kid is depending on this “passion” to get some attention at very good LACs. Is that realistic? How would one “position” or play-up this particular “passion” to best advantage for an LAC admissions officer?</p>

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<p>Typically our local HS sends a few kids to Ivys each year. They have ALL been top students, no athletes, only one URM (and that person was a very top student), no heavy donors or legacies that I am aware of. Interestingly, the one Ivy the local kids never seem to get into is Princeton.</p>

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<p>Well, how different would that be to the kid who is passionate about downhill skiing at a school without a ski team, or one who is into cross country skiing where this club/team did not exist (ie: schools in FLA?), or skeet shooting? These are all interests that make up an interesting class, but not necessary specific interests that might fill a specific need that a school could use (ie: a drummer for their marching band).</p>

<p>Most of the Ivy bound from our HS have something other than grades that stands out: amazing musical talent, huge number of hours volunteering and certified as an EMT, some are URMs, etc.</p>

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<p>80% is way high. About half that maybe.</p>

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<p>“@ windcloud
sorry but not untrue
validated by the interview given by the Duke Admission director in the school newspaper.
He may not have said 80% but that is his implied message.”</p>

<p>Let’s not play hard and fast with statistics, esp if we’re not so certain. If we’re going to resort to using percentages, then we should be very careful about the validity of the figures we throw around. </p>

<p>Each of Harvard’s undergrad class is around 1600 students; at 20% (the figure that has been thrown around by some commentators) would make 320. I seriously doubt that only 320 kids per class are non-“URM, athlete, heavy donors or legacy.” (I should warn that I’m basing this purely on anecdotal evidence.) </p>

<p>With that said, do the so-called elite schools have rough demographics they’d like to reach for each class? Sure. Does one have an advantage as an URM compared to a suburban white kid all other things equal? Statistically speaking, probably. But no one denies that possibility. The 7/8% acceptance rate is an average; different subgroups will have different percentages–because not all things are equal. We’ve established that it’s not just grades and tests scores that are being considered, but unless we know the demographics/statistics of *the applicant pool<a href=“which%20I’m%20certain%20is%20never%20released”>/i</a>, all talk of unfairness is empty words. We have nothing to compare it to. </p>

<p>“I’m wondering if an applicant’s “passion” must be seen to add value to the college community – an outstanding soccer player, actor, campus leader, community volunteer or scientist can bring fame and possibly fortune to the college.”</p>

<p>That’s probably true. I see nothing wrong with that approach to determining whether or not to accept an applicant. Why would schools like Yale or Princeton want to admit future duds?</p>

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<p>The difference would be that if you were an XC skiier, you could find plenty of colleges with XC ski teams. (An admissions officer might wonder why a kid with a “passion” for XC skiing would apply to his college in Florida.) On the other hand, there are no schools that offer vaulting – it has no “value” anywhere!!</p>

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<p>I know a girl who was an equestrian (show jumping) and wrote anl essay about the “wisdom” she had learned from the older women in her barn. She got into Yale. I don’t think the value of any EC needs to be what you’ve actually done, but what you take away from it.</p>

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<p>Um regarding The Mountain School in Vermont. I have a classmate who did that second semester of junior year. She got into Middlebury College ED.</p>

<p>It is something unique. It makes you stand out. If you’re child has interest in it, let them pursue it. They might learn something there that they won’t by memorizing formulas or studying some random esoteric topic.</p>

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<p>You make some very valid points. But I never meant to play loose with the statistics. I was suggesting that the comments from dean Guttentag at Duke validated the 80% figure that 5Boys heard from the admission officers from Princeton and Bowdoin. Thats where the 80% came from. </p>

<p>Its not a question of fair or unfair. It is just what it is.</p>

<p>The big mistake, IMO, that gets air time is that the “passion” of a student for a certain activity is the deciding factor in their admission. While I am sure that the 17yr old girl who has circumnavigated the globe in a hot air balloon will get the attention of the admission committee, for most of the accepted students factors such as race, legacy, substantial donor giving, residency, early decision, athleticism, artistic talent, first generation college, valedictorian, or celebrity status plays a far greater role in the admission process. Anyone would be foolish not to recognize this fact. This used to be the dirty little secret of admissions, but nowadays they make no excuse for it.</p>

<p>Again, its not fair or unfair that this is the case. Schools ought to be allowed to admit whomever they want. But the 3.8 UW GPA student with the 1450 SAT and great extra curricular activities with community service done as a part of their life in all honesty doesn’t stand a chance unless they possess the above listed qualities.
If the great number of applicants knew this before applying I doubt Duke would have half as many applications.</p>

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<p>“and it is these “non-hooked” kids who get into places like Duke with a 1440.” </p>

<p>Unless they possess one of the following hooks they have very little chance notwithstanding their brilliant passion.
Race
Legacy
Donor
ED
Valedictorian
First gen
Athlete
Artistic talent
Residency
Low socioeconomic standing</p>

<p>If you know of anybody that was admitted with a 1440 without one of these hooks let me know.</p>

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<p>I think having a hook is incredibly important in the admissions process, and while I don’t believe 80% of the acceptances involved a hook, I have a hard time believing that number doesn’t reach at least 50%. I’ve met a decent number of kids who I don’t think would have gotten in without a hook, and one look at all the stat threads will pretty much confirm this.</p>

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<p>Duke is a very selective school and they, like other selective schools, evaluate applications holistically. It’s certainly true that an SAT score in the 50th percentile isn’t enough; it’s probably only safe to be above the 80th, but it’s equally ludicrous to presume that applicants must have a “special factor” from jfl’s list. Admissions committees certainly take those factors into account, but they still primarily evaluate applicants holistically. A “passion” is no substitute for academic achievement, but neither is it a minor factor. All students must be able to present a coherent narrative of their experiences to the admissions committee, and this is where passion starts to come into play. </p>

<p>The narrative might be as simple as “I have a 4.0 at a selective private high school, I’m valedictorian, I have a 2390 on my SATs, 5’s on bio, chem, and physics BC APs, I’ve done some independent scientific research, and I want to go to MIT because of its world renowned expertise in the physical sciences” </p>

<p>On the other hand, it could be complex as “I’m a decent student (3.85 at a selective private school, with a 3.9 average in English classes) with decent SATs (800 reading 770 writing 700 math) and APs (4 US, 4 Euro, 5 Lit) and I’ve been writing ever since I was in 2nd grade. As the features editor and head columnist for the school paper and the president of the school literary society, I’ve been able to use my talent for literary criticism and my writing ability to enhance the cultural understanding of my classmates. But I don’t write primarily to enlighten my peers; rather, I find that through writing, I can better understand and appreciate the hidden values in the world and particularly American culture. My experiences in trying to put words on paper have taught me the nature of inspiration, which is both spontaneous but also a result of preparation, or at least inculcation. Perhaps my most interesting experience was writing a complex essay in Spanish junior year. I knew the language well, but it’s one thing to know what words mean and quite another to use those words in order to put together a coherent analytical narrative! It was almost like learning to read again. But not learning to read English; the way that the words flow together evinces the unique cultural understanding of the Spanish people. I noticed this again last summer, when I set out to read Gabriel Garcia Marquez’s celebrated novel, “100 Years of Solitude,” in the original Spanish, rather than the English translation. Marquez’s magical realism, I realized, is inherently Spanish, if not Colombian, and the English translation, though technically “accurate,” distorts and sacrifices the power of the original. I found these nascent experiences reading and analyzing literature from different cultures to be deeply engrossing, so I think I’ll study comparative literature in college. And there is no better place to do that than Brown, which has one of the best comp lit departments in the country.”</p>

<p>Your application tells a narrative, which relies in part on academic achievement, in part on ECs and passions, and in part on the personal statement and supplementary essays to tie it all together. At least, that’s my belief. By the way, the second narrative was not mine; I just made it up on the spot for illustrative purposes. I can’t read Spanish to save my life and do poorly with foreign languages in general. That’s why I’m a prospective English major, as opposed to a prospective comp lit major.</p>

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<p>“It’s certainly true that an SAT score in the 50th percentile isn’t enough”</p>

<p>To clarify, we were talking earlier about Duke’s 50th percentile, or Duke’s 25-75 range, not the overall 50th percentile of all test takers for all schools.</p>