I don’t think the idea is that a lower income student cannot succeed at an elite, or college in general, but the OP’s thread spawned the question of why so few lower income students seek assistance when they are foundering/floundering.
Your father’s story is indeed emblematic of the immigrant story. I’m not an immigrant, but I tried working for Marriott for a while - they catered the fancy events at my school, along with holding the contract to prepare the dining hall meals. Alas, 'twas not for me. I worked instead at a health and fitness club for two years, and modeling in the art department, the latter of which paid very well.
The implication that poor students do not show up at university steeped in their own culture, or familiar and appreciative of art and music, theatre and foods traditionally associated with other cultures, is what I rejected in the college viewbook I spoke of.
I get that work should not preclude one from getting to class, studying, or finding the tutoring center when necessary.
@ucbalumnus: “…in lower income areas, students were discouraged from doing anything other than following instructions by rote to do some particular task.”
Wow, I can see, looking back, that there were instances where this held true in my life. That kind of takes my breath away.
“The implication that poor students do not show up at university steeped in their own culture, or familiar and appreciative of art and music, theatre and foods traditionally associated with other cultures, is what I rejected in the college viewbook I spoke of.”
A truly poor student might not have had the opportunity to just go out and try different types of ethnic food the way a middle or upper class kid can.
I do see that in my students - regardless of race. Perhaps there are more discipline issues to deal with, and so the teachers are more strict? Interestingly, we have a small but significant number of students who come from the surrounding, more affluent areas, needing LD support, b/c our college is pretty good at providing that support. At the beginning of semester, they come to me with all the proper paperwork, meet with me during office hours, and can self-advocate. Academically, they are at or below the level as the students from the lower income areas. But they are more at ease with communicating with professors and other authority figures. It is a topic of discussion among many of us who are full time faculty. @romanigypsyeyes : most of the students at my university were mid-to low performing in high school. My observations may not apply to those who are the top end of the academic pool who attend our uni. (not very many - they choose to go elsewhere).
I have now taken to direct email, with a web link for setting appointments to get at-risk students to show up at my office. Seems to work better than the old fashioned method of just letting them know I am available. Students are working when they are not in classes - they tell me tuition is paid through Pell + their work earnings.
I worked with a guy who had been very poor as a child. He was put on a bus when he was in high school and sent to a program for poor children to get a better education. He was from Memphis and went to Connecticut, so many culture shocks. He said the ’ Ladies’ would take them to NYC to learn about culture and art and theater, would teach them table manners and other polite society traditions. He then went on to elite college and law school. He said it was all very hard and very different, from the weather to the social expectations.
The one who I think benefitted the most was his son, who grew up with all these things available in his life. My coworker still had to think about rules and manners and culture, but his child just accepted it as his life.
The article makes clear that the students with the most difficulty are those that come from low-performing high schools in high poverty areas. The kid that gets a pell grant but went to Bronx Science or similar magnet, had a lot of support in high school and is well prepared. The kid that went to University Heights (the Bronx HS discussed in the excellent This American Life story linked to above that had been discussed on CC before), does not.
Kids with pell grants that grew up in a poor corner of a privileged suburb are different from kids that grew up in a high poverty area. Teachers in high poverty schools are typically less able or willing to spend their time and effort working with the top students, compared to those at an upper middle class high school. Kids from high poverty neighborhoods and schools are much less likely to have role models who attended any college, let alone a selective one. In order to get to an Ivy, someone had to be paying attention and mentoring them, but typically not to the extent that even average students get in a many suburban high schools.
A kid that is on financial aid because their parents in Iowa make $60K per year, in an area where the median home value is $133K and median rent is around $700 is very different than a very poor kid from a northeast inner city where rents are much higher.
The article is talking about kids who are truly from a different world than most of their classmates. Most of them make it through and get a degree. The interviewer likely ASKED these kids what their concerns/problems were. Why do some here seek to call these kids whiners or denigrate their experience? To me, these are the kids that deserve the most effort by the colleges. They were given a mixed hand in life - smart but impoverished - and need a little extra help to break the cycle of poverty and reach their potential.
I’m not sure the issue is culture shock so much, but rather that low income students are in some sense required to be more independent to be accepted to elite schools. If your parents don’t have the right background, you won’t be able to ask them for help with school, you have to figure it out on your own. If your school doesn’t have offer clubs or extracurriculars, you have to figure out what you can do that’s productive outside of school. If your teachers aren’t preparing you well for AP tests, you have to figure out how to study for them, by yourself. When it comes to applying, elite schools have requirements that many others don’t, including SAT Subject tests, essays, and recommendations, that you have to find out about because your guidance counselor probably has too many other to worry about and your parents never went to college. If you’re the only high achieving student in your school, you might not even have the experiences of your peers for support. So if you’re used to doing so many things on your own in high school, and that’s what made you successful, why would you change when you go to college?
My dad was poor as a kid (as in - went hungry at times). He was never academically inclined, and dropped out of hs and enlisted in the Army where he got a GED and then attended college on the GI bill, though had to work before he finished. What did it for him was traveling through Europe (and Asia) and realizing there was SUCH a bigger world than the one he inhabited. He studied the mannerisms and hobbies of those around him - table manners, going to the theater, etc - until he absorbed them. But he also had incredible sales skills, which carried him where academics did not.
It would not be surprising if the ease of communicating with authority figures were due to how one interacts with authority figures in upper and lower income environments. For example, it is rather likely that people in lower income environments are more likely to have negative interactions with police officers who look at them as suspects than people in higher income environments. That may also be the case for other types of authority figures, like teachers and school officials, or parents’ supervisors at work.
My middle class white children are used to a huge network of people around them who are supporting them and cheering them on: family, friends, church, school, local government, police. They regularly have positive interactions with all of the above.
Low income kids often don’t have that same vast network. When things go wrong they are used to trying to fix it themselves or live with the brokenness. And most people receiving government or charity support would much, much, much, much rather be providing for themselves. These families by and large go to these services when they have no other choice. I know there are exceptions and some people are happy to live off of government or charity support (like upperclass people who sponge off of parents and never really stand on their own two feet) but those families are not the most likely to produce children who make it to the ivy league.
So these kids come from a life time of not expecting authority figures to be helpful (mild understatement) and seeing seeking help as somewhat shameful and a last resort.
The media continues to fixate on low income students attending Ivy or near- Ivy league schools . These students are high achieving, and while they may not have the same cultural capital as many of their peers, I am sure most will get through.
But the vast majority of low income students attend local community college or the local commuter 4-yr university (like the one I teach at). They seem to be invisible to the media. Perhaps the writers of these pieces are from elite universities themselves and that may be the only world they know in terms of higher education. The issues for low-income students at a university like mine cannot be fixed with a check for study abroad or a free ticket to the freshmen ball. As others have already pointed out so clearly, it is a structural problem within society.
That’s a terrific observation, mathprof63. And you’re right - help low income students succeed in local community colleges or commuter 4 year schools would have a lot more bang for the buck versus helping low income students succeed at elite schools.
True, although the issues regarding previous socialization with respect to authority figures, teaching K-12 students for intellectual curiousity versus rote following of instructions, etc. would apply to all colleges from elite schools to community colleges.
That was my thought as well @warbrain. For these lower-income kids to accomplish what for them seems to be an incredibly difficult feat of getting accepted into an Ivy League school (just knowing the obstacles they’d have to overcome to get that far) almost seems to suggest they would be more than capable of figuring out what they need to do to succeed once they get there.
I don’t think it’s about money or connections or better clothes or exotic vacations. In my experience most wealthier students are 100x more aggressive and pushy. It’s really hard not to feel a little insecure and out of place around such “alpha” peers.
I’m a senior taking a college course at local U and the smartest students are obviously pretty well off. But what sticks out is they are OBSESSED with being noticed in class and getting a 4.0. They’re also really organized, pulling out perfect daily planners every class. I notice most of the students are just sort of there, going through the motions—lacking the aggression, just seeing a course as a course, not the big picture that the couple of rich aggressive students clearly see.
I have a bone to pick with everyone assuming that just bc you don’t qualify for Financial Aid means that you have a high income and are “elite” not “middle class”… there are others like us out there who are just “live within your means”…
our family makes 80K yr but scrupulously saved and happen to have our house paid off and a college fund that totals about 250k (it was invested well in the stock market)… this gave us zero financial aid at an ivy…
we have old cars, an outdated kitchen/ baths, have never had an elaborate vacation and our son went to a public hs…
I have also found many, many who are “low income” that have better cars/ iPhones/ clothes jewelry/ material goods than my son as well as many “high income” who are that way…
I tell my son you never know what someone’s financial status is based upon their material wealth or whether they qualify for FA… and many times having less can make your drive stronger IMO…
@runswimyoga: “I have also found many, many who are “low income” that have better cars/ iPhones/ clothes jewelry/ material goods than my son as well as many “high income” who are that way…”
I hear you, runswim. It boggles the mind sometimes.
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When considering the social capital available to kids entering college, I think it’s important to realize that money does not necessarily equal social class. There are kids who enter college with a zero or close to it EFC who have been exposed to literature, history, table manners, the arts, and middle/upper middle class expectations and values and so forth by their families. There are kids with far more $$ who come from families where such things are virtually absent.