Thought this article might be of interest considering there have been past discussion threads which touched on some themes covered in this article:
I thought this was a great article but I do hope it is seen as more of a âlook whatâs possibleâ article than a âIvies are not for the working classâ article by prospective parents.
That said, when I saw this article today I couldnât help but feel that it is a little bit biased against Ivy League schools perhaps because they are an easier or more sensational target. I do not (granted this is based on anecdotal evidence) really feel that there is a greater deal of classism at the Ivies compared to other private schools or public schools with many OOS students. In fact, it might be the opposite- the Ivies do a very good job of pulling students from all over the U.S. and from a wider swath of socioeconomic backgrounds. I would wager that youâd find more classism at schools ranked just below the Ivies ( other top 25 or 50ish ranked schools) or certain liberal arts colleges.
Between my experiences as a student at a top Ivy (when considering the undergraduate population, although I might have a different view as a graduate student) versus a very good but not elite school (USNWR top-25), I might argue that there is less classism at the Ivy
Student SES diversity does vary among the Ivy League. Columbia has 30% of students on Pell grants, Harvard has 19%, Brown has 15%, and Princeton has 12%. See http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/economic-diversity-among-top-ranked-schools .
But how does SES diversity among students at elite colleges compare to the SES diversity of people posting on these forums?
I do view the article more as a âlook whatâs possibleâ rather than âIvies are not for the working classâ.
If anything, it is first-generation and lower SES students who could benefit the most from the educational quality, opportunities, resources, and social capital conferred from such institutions.
Would be more interesting to see what their SES backgrounds were back in school versus in the presentâŠand whether that influenced their outlooks in any way.
I took it as a âmoney doesnât solve everythingâ article, that even though the poorer students have the opportunity to attend school, they need more. They need to catch up on experiences and Harvard needs to recognize that. They canât pronounce Kennebunkport, never mind claim to have visited.
I worked for a company where a few guys (and they were all guys) worked their way up the ladder pretty fast, but most were from rather humble beginnings, and most hadnât been to college. The company put most of them through âfinishing schoolâ, took them to Brooks Brothers and taught them to buy suits (and shirts and ties, and how to match them). One guy I remember was very smart and really knew the business, but was never comfortable with the requirements of corporate dinners and foreign travel. Iâd think the summer program would be a good bridge and help the students be more comfortable when classes start in the fall.
The poor students going to Ivies are going to be poor no matter where they go, and are probably financially better off at Yale than at State U, but the differences in backgrounds are going to be more noticeable at the Ivy just because there are fewer students who are Pell recipients.
People are not dealing with reality if they donât think there arenât very wealthy, BMW-driving, foreign-country-visiting kids at every state flagship there under the sun. This isnât an Ivy/elite school issue.
Even people âwith a lotâ (full pay, etc) donât get everything they want handed to them. My kids have never had a car. They donât jet off to foreign countries over spring break. Theyâve not traveled anywhere near as much as other families. But they donât sit there and seethe with resentment over those who do. There will always be someone with more. That is life.
My middle class kids experienced some of what is discussed in the article, despite not being low-income or first generation so it must be really difficult for the truly poor. DS and DD had looked at the published SES stats of their prospective schools, but once they arrived on campus they wondered where those other âregularâ kids were hiding. In reality, all of their roommates, friends, or teammates came from very privileged backgrounds. D says the entire downstairs of our house would have fit in the home bedroom of her first college boyfriend. She felt awkward inviting him to our home as a result. Her roommate spent more on beauty products for one month than D did for the whole year, and never lacked for money to buy new designer dresses for every campus semi-formal. Their friends all had vacation homesâoften more than one; most had attended prep schools or if not, public schools in very affluent areas; and their parents rubbed shoulders and played golf with people whose names we see in the news. It was a culture shock for them. While my kids didnât lack for essentials like bus tickets or meals, they certainly did not have enough money to participate in the same activities as their peers. They could not accompany their friends on weekend ski trips, or expensive spring break excursions, or treat their friends in the ways others did (e.g. group birthday outings to concerts, etc.). For âregularâ kids, just an outing into NYC or Boston can be much too much money. In fact, one reason my D decided not to attend Columbia was because a lot of the studentsâ social life entailed city clubs and eateries and she knew we couldnât afford that. While other kids stayed out late on Friday and slept in, DS had to wake up very early Saturday mornings and take a bus to another city to referee soccer games there so he could afford his fraternity dues.
The possessions and fun spending bothered them a whole lot less than the other issue raised in the article: parental career assistance. It was so easy for their friends to get jobs and internships through their parents or parentsâ friends. They did not have to spend hours and hours filling out applications or going through 4 phases of interviews, only to be rejected in the end. In fact, they came on campus with high level experiences already, so that paved a golden path for them. DS watched an intern get a full time offer over other interns, despite not being the best or most hard-working, because the firm wanted to do business with the kidâs fatherâs company. These were things that did cause them pain.
The above is not to complain. My kids were blessed and had great experiences and are doing well now. But you really donât realize how the other half lives until you spend 4 years around them.
Odd quote from the article:
Later in the semester, Claudio confided in a well-off friend that his mom was asking him for money to help pay bills. âIâm sorry,â the friend said, which made Claudio feel worse. Heâs since stopped sharing his background so openly.
Wtf? The friend expressed empathy! What more did he want or expect from the friend?
It can depend who you hang around with. Dâs college friends did not come from money.They did not do expensive outings on the weekends. She has mentioned being thankful that she does not have student loans as all of her friends do. After her friends visited us, they remarked about our house being âbigâ, it is nice sized, but not at all what some of the homes in NoVA are. It is really all relative.
Telling, perhaps, that the first two students interviewed in the article both became sociology majors. The subjective experience of students in such a position may be profound indeed.
Sometimes kids see that other families have big homes, or go to foreign locales for vacation, or whatever, and feel poor in comparison, but that might also relate to how their parents chose to spend their money, or not spend it. This is a good reminder to make sure kids understand that some families might opt to pay cash for one small car, rather than borrow and have more, or more expensive cars. This is just an example and can also be applied to anything, e.g. housing, entertainment, etc.
The part about social connections could be viewed as downright negative, if it results in poorly qualified rich kids stepping ahead of others. But what if they were equally qualified? I guess that kind of thing happens at all levels. Maybe there are some business or government agencies or non profits where connections donât matter, but I suspect that number is under 50%. Like it or not, that is what networking is all about. Some say that is a reason in favor of students going to the most âeliteâ school they can. And it doesnât apply only to elite schools - even my sonâs big public high school has an alumni network! Whoâs to say that, given a chance, someone who graduated from his high school wouldnât hire another alum over an equally qualified person who went to a fancy private high school?
Actually, it is.
The BMW-driving, foreign-country-visiting kids at state flagships are in the minority. Most of their classmates canât keep up with them in terms of spending money, and they donât expect to. Itâs the rich kids who have to conform to what the less affluent kids are doing.
My son went to a state flagship. Our family doesnât drive BMWs, but weâre not poor, either, and he had a reasonable amount of spending money, mostly from the part-time jobs he had held in high school. During his freshman year, I asked him whether he and his friends ever ate at any of the attractive restaurants near the university. He gave me a LOOK and said âMom, there are all kinds of people here. Many of them have very little money. They canât afford to skip a dining hall meal theyâve already paid for and eat somewhere else. So we eat in the dining hall and then do things afterwards.â
And the things they did afterwards consisted mostly of watching DVDs and playing video games in peopleâs dorm rooms â which is about as cheap as entertainment gets if youâre not the one who owns the electronics.
Of course, some people in the group could have afforded to do other things. But they preferred to spend their time doing things everyone could do, at least on most occasions, rather than doing expensive things that only some of them could afford.
Interesting and telling article. I can say speaking from personal experience, that when you are poor and at these institutions, you spend a great deal of your time, trying to identify and respond to a series of social cues that were previously never a part of your world. So, for all the genuine and benevolent attempts by these schools to make the transition easier and seamlessâit never is, nor perhaps, should it. The wealth at some of these places is not just pronounced, but rarefied. Further, the kids know who are poor, and it is treated, in most instances, with a modicum of respect, but also conscripted distance. Hushed tones and whispers are the norm in the commons and dorms for kids, who may have only a couple set of clothes or a single jacket for winter or politely refuse to visit iconic campus watering holes.
Our middle D, goes to one of these schools, and frankly she did not have to address many of the issues presented in the article. That said, she has keen insight to many of the kids that occupy this quarter of the university (as they are like many of her cousins and other relatives) and can attest to both the angst and general feeling of being a bit out of place. I suppose this is all part of the experience, and in the end, I think these kids have the unique opportunity to develop their own emotional intelligence through these experiences. If you want a really great read on these very topic, I suggest you peruse the following, incredibly compelling, thoughtful and tragicâsee;http://www.amazon.com/Short-Tragic-Life-Robert-Peace-ebook/dp/B00GEEB7LC
@Pizzagirl , addressing âWhat more did he want from the friend?â, I think the issue was now that the friend knew, he would probably feel sorry for or pity him and the dynamics of their relationship might change. And he didnât want that to happen.
Itâs interesting how many articles like this you see and how few, if any, you see from other perspectives. I guarantee you that for every example of overt classism, there are many more of foolish and rude people displaying their limited perspectives. You will never hear about these.
âDo you live in a mansion?â
âWhy donât you live in a mansion?â
âDo you have servants?â
âWhy donât you have a car?â
âCan you take us all to ----?â
âWhy donât you buy nicer (more expensive) clothes?â
âWhy donât you wear more makeup?â
âCan you dad/mom get me a job?â
@justonedad Sorry, I am not sure whether you are trying to sardonic, but I find that comment misplaced and it borders on offensive. People from lower-economic families are not paupers or some bad version of a marginalized characterization that has neither truth or substantive validity. As a man of color, I have been through all of the above-mentioned experiences as a student, father and college instructor, and while folks may make a fauz pas, I have not witnessed or ever heard of such comments.
But,as you ironically place it, âthere are many more of foolish and rude people displaying their limited perspectivesââŠmaybe some on this very board?
Really, @JustOneDad ? You can âguaranteeâ that these things happen everywhere? Happen as often as the sort ithings discussed in the article?
Yep, people have limited perspectives all right.
Yeah, like I said, you donât hear about it much.
**
Well I sure is glad my son ainât at some ârespectable private collegeâ. The unrespectable one seems to have suited him just fine!
Well, not sure exactly what âthese thingsâ you are referring to, but anywhere there are large collections of people, sure. People are social animals and as such are very attuned to looking for indications of class and order whether they exist or not.