<p>Simple logistics. Say you apply ED and are accepted on 12/15. You pull all other applications as required. You hear on financial aid in say March (after prior year W2, etc). You can't swing it and are free to apply elsewhere. Meanwhile it is too late to apply in the regular round elsewhere and you are limited in your selections (i.e., community colleges). ED is a gutsy move.</p>
<p>
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Full tuition payers have nothing to do with financial aid. Most elite schools spend way more than tuition to educate your kid. I know that is hard to believe but the numbers consistently reinforce this.
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</p>
<p>Let's look at it this way: U has X dollars/year available for FA. It can be spread out over the entire class, or only 50% of the class. That is the only way the "enrollment management" theory makes sense.</p>
<p>Go5878, there is a "small" caveat about Columbia policy ...</p>
<p>"Those who do opt out of their Early Decision contract are released to pursue lower-cost school options, such as state schools and/or schools that award merit aid. The admission offer to Columbia is then cancelled. A candidate who withdraws from Columbias Early Decision offer will not be allowed to reconsider Columbias financial aid estimate in the spring Regular Decision cycle, and will not be able to reinstate the original offer of admission."</p>
<p>The devil is in the details.</p>
<p>What I resent is that my husband and I made very prudent decisions for twenty plus years. We lived in a very small house for years and years, settled for a combination of just one family car and public transportation, and at times worked four jobs between the two of us. We clipped coupons, did our own laudry and ironing, and watched rented movies instead of going out. Meanwhile neighbors who earned the same or less than we did slowly traded up houses, drove three and four SUV's at a time, and took extravagant vacations. Now we are paying for college for our kids because we have the available funds while our neighbors are broke from living beyond their means get free educations for their children. That's nuts! Once again, society seems to reward those who are least responsible.</p>
<p>Now MY rant is over....</p>
<p>another article</p>
<p>audiophile: The endowment money can't be spread over the entire class as monies are restricted to financial aid for those in financial need (donor intent). In any case, paying full tuition doesn't subsidize those on financial aid; full tuition doesn't cover a 100% of the colleges all in costs not including financial aid.</p>
<p>ttp://<a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aF3i.7bU7Vtg&refer=us">www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aF3i.7bU7Vtg&refer=us</a></p>
<p>Harvard College, the U.S.'s oldest educational institution, accepted the fewest number of students in 11 years for early admission as it prepares for what may be the largest number of applicants in its history.</p>
<p>Harvard offered admission to 812 students out of 3,812 applicants </p>
<p>this month, compared with 892 out of 4,212 students last December, said William Fitzsimmons, Harvard's dean of admissions and financial aid, said in a telephone interview. Harvard's regular application deadline is Jan. 1.</p>
<p><code>You want to have a level playing field for early action people and the regular decision people because we had such a large number of applicants last year,'' Fitzsimmons said.</code>We just said to ourselves that if we have another big jump in applications, let's be certain that we're conservative in the early action period.''</p>
<p>wsox: As I understand it, most schools will give you a preliminary statement of your financial aid. True?</p>
<p>xiggi: I don't understand how that caveat is a problem? If the offer at Columbia is not good enough, we can't afford it and would have to have to pursue a lower cost school. Are you reading the "such as" as a "must"? Please help me understand.</p>
<p>wsox: I think audiophile's point is that every dollar that a full tuition payer puts into the system is a dollar that can be spent, rather than one that must be subsidized by the system, no?</p>
<p>"xiggi: I don't understand how that caveat is a problem? If the offer at Columbia is not good enough, we can't afford it and would have to have to pursue a lower cost school. Are you reading the "such as" as a "must"? Please help me understand"</p>
<p>The caveat is that the decision to release is VERY much in the hands of Columbia. While they won't withhold a release frivolously, I would not expect them to offer a release to allow a student to attend another Ivy League or similar school. </p>
<p>FWIW, the fact that Columbia decided to post a tidbit about the procedure does not intimate that it is easier at other schools. The schools cannot force a student to attend, but they can preclude him or her to apply and attend another one by NOT granting a release they have no obligation to grant. </p>
<p>It is a grave error to believe the applicants are in the driver seat.</p>
<p>go5878: A lot of schools have web site calculators that give you an estimate. The web site calculators are all pretty much the same as they go off the FAFSA logic. The software calculates "need" based on income, assets, etc. Some people say this software is accurate within hundreds of dollars. Others say it is off a material amount. I don't think the schools have an incentive to fudge it as they have made the '100% of demonstrated financial need' commitment and don't like ED recipients to walk over something that is largely determinable before the application.</p>
<p>garland: The schools have separate accounting from their endowment. For example, the school gets full tuition times the number of students equaling revenue. Part of the revenue, for example in Pton's case 45%, is just parental checks. For about 55% of the students, the endowment funds the college for the financial aid grant averaging about half the cost and the parents ponys up the rest. In sum the college nets the full revenue from either the parents or the endowment. I don't see that tuition payments has anything to do with financial aid. If the school's endowment is small or goes down, you simply have less financial aid recipients.</p>
<p>What most people miss is that much of the endowment also funds operations (say an endowed faculty chair) which benefits all students. Some donors give to the endowment restricted for financial aid and others give for other reasons, say restricted to an endowed chair. Therefore, my statement that the college is spending more than what I pay as a full paying parent. If they didn't have the endowed chair money they would have to have a cheaper faculty person to do the job or cut elsewhere. It is hard to write a check for $40,000 and tell yourself you are getting 'a deal' but in a sense you are.</p>
<p>I understand all that; I still don't see how more money from one source won't mean more operating funds available.</p>
<p>The financial aid grant help full paying students only if the school could not fill the class with full paying customers. The restricted endowment can only be tapped for tuition costs of financially needy students. Assume the endowment cratered or that no financial aid worthy candidates applied. The remaining students (say only 45% of the school) couldn't pick up the entire overhead without adding more full paying students. Filling the class with full paying students probably wouldn't be a problem for elite ED schools but I don't think it is a realistic hypothetical. Certainly no elite ED school would be run without financial aid recipients.</p>
<p>Xiggi:
I'm so new to this I had to go look up FWIW.</p>
<p>"While they won't withhold a release frivolously, I would not expect them to offer a release to allow a student to attend another Ivy League or similar school. "</p>
<p>Why not? If the ED IVY school does not value the admission of the student enough to come up with the appropriate financial aid, why should they care if the applicant goes to another IVY that offers more aid? Maybe I'm being very naive, but with the 10-15% admit rates at these schools, the only legitimate reason could be vindictiveness. The are certainly not lacking for qualified applicants standing in line. Please understand this is all predicated on the fact that the applicant really has need that is not being met by school A, but will be met by school B.</p>
<p>Believe me, I'm not arguing because you have obviously been around the block on this - just trying to understand the ground rules.</p>
<p>They would never release for another Ivy. All Ivys have agreed to give ONLY need based financial aid (no merit money). So how could college A give more than college B (where you were accepted ED) when college B is meeting 100% of demonstrated financial need. For college A to trump B would be prima facie violating its joint agreement with B. Finally, the Ivys all respect each others agreements. If you signed with College B an ED agreement, no one will touch you as you agreed not to apply elsewhere. No other Ivy can give more than 100% of demonstrated financial need, which you already have.</p>
<p>Hi GO5878,</p>
<p>Remember that ED is predicated on the fact that if a student applies early, they get a decision almost 4 months before the admitted class finds out their decision. In exchange for early consideration, if the student is admitted through binding Early decision, then they commit to attending the college. It similar to quid pro quo because the student is getting something (an early admission) in exchange for something (commitment to attend and the student withdrawing all other applications and not making any new ones). </p>
<p>Since most schools beleive that the applicant is acting in good faith when they apply ED, it does in a way undermine the process because the student has now not kept his/her committment. </p>
<p>IF is it vindictiveness on the part of the school, then is the student being less than honorable, disingenuious, deviod of ethics or character for not living up to their part of the agreeement?</p>
<p>In the case of Columbia, the school states that it will meet your demonstrated need based upon the income and the assets of the student and his family. Some students beleive that meeting 100% demonstrated need essentially means "I tell the school what I can afford to pay or what my parents say they are going to pay and the school just gives me the rest in scholarship money." </p>
<p>It is the school not the family that determines the demonstrated need.</p>
<p>Colleges are pretty up front as to what one is signing on to when they apply ED. It is up to the student and his/her parents to know (or should have known) what they were committing to and stating "oh, I did not realize" that should not exempt you.</p>
<p>to piggyback on wsox's statement the Ivys have a JOINT STATEMENT ON COMMON IVY GROUP ADMISSIONS PROCEDURES
which they also tell you up front that they honor the ED commitments of their member schools. So as wsox stated, it you back out of Columbia's ED agreement, the others have also vow not to take you.</p>
<p>*A. The College Board-approved Early Decision Plan, which is offered by Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, the University of Pennsylvania, and Princeton requires a prior commitment to matriculate.</p>
<p>Financial aid awards for those qualifying for financial assistance will normally be announced in full detail at the same time as the admission decisions. An applicant receiving admission and an adequate financial award under the Early
Decision Plan will be required to accept that offer of admission and withdraw all applications to other colleges or universities.</p>
<p>All Ivy institutions will honor any required commitment to matriculate which has been made to another college under this plan.*</p>
<p>OK, got it! Thanks so much.</p>
<p>Can I assume from this that all Ivies calculate need identically? I have already found that there are variations in need based aid using the institutional method which lead to some great disparities in aid. For instance, the treatment of business value and home equity seem to vary widely among various schools using the institutional method.</p>
<p>go5878</p>
<p>No, they don't calculate exactly the same but they will negotiate. </p>
<p>Finally, remember once you apply ED you have to ask your HS guidance counselor for a recommendation. Once your accepted, the guidance counselor doesn't want to send out additional recommendations as he signed off on your ED application. So even if you wanted to end run the system, I don't think it would be possible. The HS does not want to be a party to violating your ED agreement.</p>
<p>wsox: Thanks for the info. Your thread implies that my intent in gathering this information is to "end run the system" when it is quite the opposite. I merely want to clearly understand the rules and all their ramifications so I can "follow the system".</p>
<p>ps The funny part is that our high school counselor couldn't even tell you what ED stood for (aside for the malady treated with Viagra). We haven't anyone apply to an Ivy League school from our high school in over 30 years.</p>
<p>Perhaps my math is off, but it appears to me that Harvard last year took 21% of EA applicants, and this year took 21%. Sounds to me like they want to keep admits in the 20% range and since they received fewer applications put the best spin on it possible. I read somewhere that they also deferred over 70% of applicants. That's called keeping your bases covered if the record number of applications don't materialize.</p>