<p>{and how older alumnae are reacting to the news.}</p>
<p>I can tell you, many will no longer donate to the college nor will they allow their daughters to attend Smith. An alumna friend actually thought we were kidding when we told her our daughter was going to attend Smith. And her family is a 3x legacy. She loved the college.
But you can hear the same complaints from alums at any college. The old Wesleyan alums arent at all pleased with the direction that college has taken. The list goes on and on. </p>
<p>{Why did the student union go along with this?} </p>
<p>PC crap</p>
<p>{Interesting to note that this does not seem to be totally acceptable by all Smithies}</p>
<p>Many more than you can imagine, but theyre afraid to voice their opinion for fear of having a plethora of derogatory comments directed at them. Remember, these are just kids in a sense. Some are scared, away from home for the first time and they dont need any extra aggravations in their life. The administration has to take the lead. Theyre the controlling body and adults. A few years ago a dean or admission officer (cant remember which) made it clear she was going to try to attract more of the traditional type of students. She was forced to resigned. I got this info second hand from a alumna so take its validity with that in mind.
Many students wont say anything for fear of offending the profs and having their grades effected. Probably a false fear but a fear nonetheless.</p>
<p>{I wonder how the president of Smith feels about this,}</p>
<p>"The President's daughter attends MH" Are you kidding? What's up with that? I find it disconcerting that the adults don't take a stand on this issue. I hear what you're saying about the kids, and I agree. Your D seems to be just fine, and I assume that many others are as well. Most probably don't even know what's going on. Again, this is a delicate issue, and one I wish the administration would tackle. Sad to hear of so many alums not wanting their children to attend. Speaks volumes. With those issues at hand, I doubt that their alum giving willl go up; therefore, keeping them where they are in rankings.</p>
<p>{My own opinion (having spent time around Smith 35 years ago, and my wife came out of Camp Hamp)}</p>
<p>How would you know much about the advising, mentoring etc. at Smith 35 yrs ago by hanging around Hampshire (20 miles away) a few weekends here and there? My wife and friends actually /attended/ Smith and they would strongly disagree with you.</p>
<p>{As for complaints about lesbianism, these go back}</p>
<p>The complaints arent about lesbians, per se, and you know it. Theyre about the large amount of expenditures being spent on a minority at the expense of more important issues (aid for one ) and the minority, especially the transgender students controlling the direction of the college and dissuading a much larger number of students from applying than anyone wants to admit.</p>
<p>Wellesley is a perfect example of a womens college with a high retention rate, prestigious app pool,but without the negative press Smith seems to garner on a regular basis.</p>
<p>{You'll find similar at Yale, with the largest, most famous, and best-funded Gay Studies program in the country}</p>
<p>You keep bringing up Yale. Ill repeat myself so maybe youll understand, I dont give a damn about Yale. I dont donate money to Yale nor do any of my children attend there. How many men wont apply to Yale because they have a gay studies program? Around zero would be my guess. How many women wont go near Smith because of its issues, recent over-the top reputation, and frequent articles in the news, including 60 minutes a few years ago?</p>
<p>{"The President's daughter attends MH" Are you kidding? What's up with that?}</p>
<p>Well, shes probably attending for zip, and I sure wouldnt want to attend the college where my mother was pres. Im sure they get along much better with a river separating them--lol</p>
<p>{I doubt that their alum giving willl go up; therefore, keeping them where they are in rankings.}</p>
<p>Alum giving is a small factor in the ranking. Smith actually has a very impressive donation rate. Sure, there are numerous old alumnae upset, but just as many are still very fond of their alma mater, warts and all.
Youll see the same thing at numerous colleges.. Some Vassar women refuse to donate because the college went coed. Cant please everyone. I think Ricky Nelson said that</p>
<p>"How would you know much about the advising, mentoring etc. at Smith 35 yrs ago by hanging around Hampshire (20 miles away) a few weekends here and there? My wife and friends actually /attended/ Smith and they would strongly disagree with you."</p>
<p>I dated Smithies for most of four years. Hardly a qualification. But, I did get an earful!</p>
<p>"But you can hear the same complaints from alums at any college. The old Wesleyan alums arent at all pleased with the direction that college has taken. The list goes on and on."</p>
<p>Yup. After actually visiting, I was so relieved that my d. didn't attend my alma mater. We likely have differing definitions of "over the top".</p>
<p>BJM, if you read the article carefully, it's a lot of mud-by-association as far as Smith goes. There are two facts stated: there are about two-dozen transgender students and the students voted to change the [student government] constitution reference from "her" to "student."
It does not follow, as Field implies--a nasty bit of writing, fwiw--that there's any loss of rigor.</p>
<p>D has never heard the "Queer in a year..." slogan, though she laughed when I quoted it to her. The PC-ness is one of Smith's biggest downsides but it's a) by no means unique, b) can be stepped around and mostly ignored if you're inclined to do so, and c) is of far more substance to Ranters who want to make political points with it. </p>
<p>Pendulums swing...that's their essential nature. </p>
<p>D agrees that some great students might pass up Smith if they buy into the propaganda and that's too bad. I've heard dozens of Smith students speak and I've heard nothing that would make <em>me</em> roll my eyes that I wouldn't have heard from students at any other college campus. Collectively, I think Smith students are the best advertising that any college could ask for.</p>
<p>RLT, I think Wellesley has two things operating: I think the gay population is a little more underground and there's more of a pre-professional "let's not screw up our image" attitude. I've never said anything to D but the undercurrent of pre-professionalism at Wellesely bothered me in my various interactions.</p>
<p>The Smith advising has been first rate.</p>
<p>And I would read nothing in the fact that Carol Christ's daughter attends MHC...I'd hate to be "the principal's kid" anywhere.</p>
<p>Smith, Ohio Wesleyan and Denison have very different financial aid policies and significant differences in the economic status of their students. Smith has one of the highest low income student percentages of any of the better known LACS. 27% on Pells and over 60% on need based aid - at a price - average indebtedness $25,000. But Smith appears to have made a committment to enroll low income students - almost a third of the student body. OWU and Denison give aid on the merit discount philosophy. OWU gives tons of merit aid but meets full need in only about a third of all students (Smith meets 100%) The stats suggest a more middle class student body, but one that also ends up heavily in debt around $21,000. Denison has significantly fewer low income students, around 13%, and under 50% of the student body is deemed eligible for aid. The grant to loan ratio for those who do borrow is pretty high, suggesting a reliance on loans for need based aid. The overall stats suggest an upper middle class student body.</p>
<p>Someone also suggested thatstdents on Pells get "a full ride". That is not usually the case at most colleges. A typical package for a pell grant student includes $1 to 5 thousand in fees, an average of $5,000 in loans, and $2,000 or so in work study. If you include all of that and the pells and supplementals and any state money, most colleges make close to $15,000 a year on low income students. For the better merit based LACs that's a little low, but if the student's stats are high enough, then acceptable.</p>
<p>{I dated Smithies for most of four years. Hardly a qualification. But, I did get an earful!}</p>
<p>Ok Valid point. Smith and Holyoke relied on Williams and Amherst men for extracurricular activities.
The Dartmouth boys were always close at hand too.
I still wont agree Smith is a far better college today. Not because it isnt, but because wed have to start a discussion of /better/ in what areas, in what ways, and what is the definition of better. Yours may differ than mine, TDs, my wife, et al. There is no correct answer, as everything is in the eye of the beholder. I think its fair to say, everyone wants to see Smith succeed far beyond anyones expectations and the road to that end is open for discussion</p>
<p><<quote>>Yup. After actually visiting, I was so relieved that my d. didn't attend my alma mater.<<quote>></quote></quote></p>
<p>I dont understand that. I was in Williamstown a great deal about 10 years ago and I know some recent Williams grads, including a friends son. Ive never met one I didnt like a great deal.</p>
<p>I agree your daughter is much better served at Smith because of her opera etc, but why the angst with Williams?</p>
<p>"You keep bringing up Yale. Ill repeat myself so maybe youll understand, I dont give a damn about Yale."</p>
<p>You asked how your daughter would be able to explain Smith to her high school. My answer would be exactly the same way a Yalie would explain Yale. </p>
<p>"Someone also suggested thatstdents on Pells get "a full ride". That is not usually the case at most colleges. A typical package for a pell grant student includes $1 to 5 thousand in fees, an average of $5,000 in loans, and $2,000 or so in work study."</p>
<p>That is true. Pell Grantee family incomes range from $0 to around $40k, and the packages will vary accordingly. However, I can say with some certainty that at a $44k college/university total cost, a Pell Grant student will receive (almost inevitably, there's probably an exception out there) full tuition in grants (and likely at least a little more.)</p>
<p>ok full tuition if you like, but they still have to eat and sleep and that's mighy expensive at a $44,000 college. When a D1 football player gets a full ride, they're getting tuition, room and board and a while lot more.</p>
<p>PC-ness is one of Smith's biggest downsides but it's a) by no means unique,}</p>
<p>God, no kidding. My dad is a Wesleyan alumni and I made an minor politically incorrect comment to an admission officer at the college and was immediately straightened out in my distorted (in his opinion) way of thinking--lol </p>
<p>{D agrees that some great students might pass up Smith if they buy into the propaganda and that's too bad.}</p>
<p>It is too bad. But whats missing in this equation is the parents opinion. When parents read articles such as the one in the WP, ( yes, Fields is a consevative flame thrower) in all likelihood a student will never get a chance to know or meet any Smithies. Or if the reputation gets to the point parents are embarrassed to tell others their child attends Smith because theyll assumed to be gay, thats too bad also. I heard that last thought expressed by one concerned alumnae.</p>
<p>In realty, nothing is going to change. My kid is happy, has learned to appreciate nose rings, purple hair and thats all that really matters to me.</p>
<p>But Smith appears to have made a commitment to enroll low income students - almost a third of the student body.}</p>
<p>Correct. Thats what makes Smith Smith. Middlebury, et al colleges try to recruit low income, minority students also. One of the problems is, Blacks especially, dont not want to attend a college in a very rural area. A Black friend of mine picked Mt Holyoke over Middlebury even though she knew Middlebury was far better for her major because she didnt want to be in the the sticks and so far from NYC</p>
<p>{Denison has significantly fewer low income students, around 13%, and under 50% of the student body is deemed eligible for aid. The grant to loan ratio for those who do borrow is pretty high, suggesting a reliance on loans for need based aid.{</p>
<p>Thats wrong. Youre speaking of need based aid. 95% of students at Denison receive some form of aid. Merit if not part of the need based equation. Denison buys students. And since they dropped off the the top 50, theyll probably buy more. The average indebtedness at graduation at Denison is 14,000, at Smith its 24,000. This is where I get a bit perturbed. If Smith used more grants than loans to fill the need based aid requirements, I believe more middleclass students who are to well of to qualify for much need based aid, and to poor to pay the costs of loans and EFC costs, would in many cases chose Smith over other colleges where they to receive better aid and less indebtedness at graduation. Some families simply dont have the EFC contributions required for attendance at many colleges Otoh- many do and are selfish pigs that refuse to lower their lifestyle for the sake of their children. Have one down the street. He has few mm liquid net worth but wont pay for an over- priced private college
Denison is much more homogenous and does have fewer low income students. That in of itself is not a negative.</p>
<p>{It is too bad. But whats missing in this equation is the parents opinion. When parents read articles such as the one in the WP, ( yes, Fields is a consevative flame thrower) in all likelihood a student will never get a chance to know or meet any Smithies. Or if the reputation gets to the point parents are embarrassed to tell others their child attends Smith because theyll assumed to be gay, thats too bad also. I heard that last thought expressed by one concerned alumnae.}</p>
<p>How sad! Hopefully parents don't believe everything they read in the papers written by flame throwers. Her past articles should have been a footprint for all to see by now! I realize that Smith has this "gay" reputation, but according to TD, they have about 20-25% gay students. That's really not that much more than any other college; assuming that at Smith they probably have come out of the closet sooner, and other colleges have men who aren't too comfortable with the tag yet. Do you think they would have that same reputation if they were coed? I think not!</p>
<p>BTW, what's up with the purple hair and nose rings. When we visited last, we went out for breakfast, and I swear, my wife and I were the only two people in the restaurant without colored hair!?!</p>
<p>{BTW, what's up with the purple hair and nose rings.}</p>
<p>LOL--Welcome to Northampton. Its no Watch Hill or Mystic. Northampton is the easts answer to Seattle grunge. 6o minutes did a segment a few years ago on Northampton and its liberalism in the middle of a conservative area of Mass. Conservative is a relative term here.
My daughter did a lot of her Christmas shopping in Northampton. When I asked her if it was as chaotic as the stores around our house, she replied You kidding! Everyone is stoned and mellow
If you want to have some serious giggles, sit at a table in front of Starbucks with a radio loudly playing Rush Limbaugh. Having a Pit Bull with you is advisable though</p>
<p>I used to live in Amherst. The entire area is a wonderful place to live and attend college.</p>
<p>{That's really not that much more than any other college;}</p>
<p>Smith may have a somewhat greater percentage of gay students than coed colleges for the very fact theyre accepted and not discriminated against at Smith or Northampton. Smithies are also more vocal and politically active than the students at the other womens colleges. Additionally, Northampton has a large number of gays living and working in the area so it appears the college is more gay orientated than it is.
TD was fairly accurate. Wellesley students are much less vocal and the women tend to stay more underground. But youll still see students holding hands on the campus
The town of Wellesley is also a very upscale with a white prep ambience, so there isnt the overtly gay presence as there is in Northampton. I have a friend who lives in Wellesley, and I can assure you the town would never tolerate 1/1000 of what goes on in Northampton. Maybe thats why Im bored 30 minutes after arriving in Wellesley--lol</p>
<p>BJM8, I've been to NoHO enought that I've started to wonder what a diamond stud on my left ear, or dangling pearl (a la Mr. Tilney in "Shakesepare In Love") might look. But considering that I already look very much like Johnny Depp in "Pirates of the Carribean," though neither D nor any of her friends acknowledge the resemblance, perhaps I don't need to.</p>
<p>{If you want to have some serious giggles, sit at a table in front of Starbucks with a radio loudly playing Rush Limbaugh. Having a Pit Bull with you is advisable though}</p>
<p><em>LOL</em> I'm afraid the best I could do is have a black lab by my side named Elwood...not too scary heh?</p>
<p>TD...I'm shocked that the girls don't see the resemblance between you and Johnny Depp! If Ms. Fields was writing a story on you, she would say you look like Kate Winslet in Titanic!</p>
<p>{I've been to NoHO enought that I've started to wonder what a diamond stud on my left ear{</p>
<p>If I remember correctly, an earring in the left ear signifies youre gay. You might want to inform Mrs. TD of your plans before you push the pin and don the diamond</p>
<p>Sorry RLT...but the saying is "left is right, and right is wrong." Therefore, an earring in the right ear means you're gay! I think? But hey, let's not quibble about TD's sexual identity. <em>LOL</em></p>