Interesting Take on Diversity

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<p>This is one unintended consequence of AA–the belief that all applicants of color received a minority boost, whether they actually did or not. In the case of the applicants you highlighted, they didn’t need any advantage and there is no proof that they actually received a boost, but we all assume it.</p>

<p>There are two issues here: did the minority status provide a an admissions boost and, once the kid has been admitted to the college, does the college put the kid into a minority category for statistical/PR purposes.</p>

<p>ellemenope, You are right. My father forbade my sister and I from checking off our race when we applied to college because he never wanted us to think we got in because we were minorities. Ironically, when my sister (a straight-A student at a private school with almost perfect SATs back in the 1980s) was accepted at an ivy, our white neighbor told us she only got in because she was a (insert racial slur).</p>

<p>One story from my experience, 2collegewego–</p>

<p>One of my AFrican American classmates told us that she didn’t check the race box on her application to law school because she wanted to know for herself that she got in on her own merits. The fact that she was telling US the story re-iterates that minority students feel that most people at school feel that minorities got an advantage in admissions process and wouldn’t have gotten in otherwise.</p>

<p>NOT fair to bright, hardworking, minority student.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, life often isn’t fair to bright, hardworking, minority kids. I think holistic admissions tries to take that into account. </p>

<p>Here’s one example… My kids are different shades. One looks black, not mixed, while the rest look mixed. The one who is darkest has always been the best student-- yet I have always had to fight the hardest to put her in gifted classes. I remember when she was in 3rd grade, every single black kid (including her) was in the slow reading group-- despite the fact that my kid had standardized testing on file where she tested at least 3 grades above her grade-level in every single category.</p>

<p>It’s interesting how the stories of racial minorities who refuse to check the box are always trotted out very approvingly yet there are not matching stories of legacies who refuse to identify as such. Or children of donors. For some reason, those cases just don’t elict the same feelings. Hmmmm…</p>

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I don’t know why that is offensive, but I’m happy to be enlightened…

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<p>Bay said it better than I could,

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<p>2collegewego, you are correct in your surmise and no offense taken. I’ve never had exactly the kind of experience you describe and may well be misjudging the socioeconomic class of some of the parents/kids that I saw. There is a lot going on below the surface that I don’t see. One thing I did see was that at the admitted student events, a high percentage of the African-American men were wearing sport coats when others were not; I guessed that class signals were being sent because of concern about how they might be perceived without the signaling. This choice might artificially inflate the perceived class of the wearers.</p>

<p>[As an aside, I am Jewish and am old enough to have experienced a fair bit of discrimination when I was a kid. At my first elementary school, the predominantly Catholic students wanted to and did fight me because I was Jewish. We lived in that town because in the wealthier town my parents wanted to live in, the realtors wouldn’t sell houses to Jews, though they never said so. Ten years later, we bought a house directly from a builder in that town and I was one of 3 Jews in my HS class of 400. I was the first Jewish kid ever invited to the debutante ball (as an escort), which was held at a country club that didn’t admit Jews and my invitation apparently didn’t sit well with some people. My second girlfriend at Princeton, a place that reeked of WASP aristocracy when I was there, was born to a mother whose family came over on the Mayflower and who was very distressed that her daughter was going out with me. After she’d known me for months, she told her daughter that I had a big nose and curly hair (I have neither). While I am describing the overt discrimination, I was aware of the kind of below the surface discrimination of which you write. I’m not trying to equate the experiences you describe and my own. Moreover, I was never in a situation like the ones you describe in which people attributed my success to something other than my effort and intelligence or people assumed that I was not capable of handling difficult material as a result of my racial/religious group.]</p>

<p>Back to the point at hand. I do think that your comments in paragraphs 2-5 focus on precisely what felt uneasy to me. By focusing on a limited definition of diversity that is measured in some peculiar ways, we are seeing peculiar results. The schools are talking great words about diversity but are managing to choose a class that is much less diverse than their words or their numbers would suggest.</p>

<p>European Americans are currently the dominant culture in this country. Most don’t realize how many things they take for granted that are influenced by one’s ethnic background. It is hard to be different. Many of the advantaged majority don’t realize how large a role their ethnic group has played in their success. Trying to correct an imbalance in our imperfect world can’t be done in a way that will please everyone.</p>

<p>Son is one of very few Asian Indians (1/2) locally but there are so many Asians vying for places in elite schools they have to limit their numbers for diversity’s sake. It would have been nice for him to have been with larger numbers of his minority group for a change. Years ago H and I thought our child’s minority staus would help him and we can afford the elite private schools. I couldn’t afford to even consider elite schools. But the admissions game changed- too many smart Asians also have college aged kids now and need blind admissions take away the financial advantage. The real and changing world.</p>

<p>I remember waiting at an east coast airport many years ago and a woman was lamenting that her kids might not get in her alma mater as legacies- I thought that was good because it left room for all of the students whose parents weren’t rich enough to give them legacy status but were more deserving. </p>

<p>Key word - underrepresented. In a perfect world we wouldn’t have such problems. All students would be given an equal education to match their innate ability and the numbers would reflect the composition of our society. White students from affluent areas wouldn’t get test prep courses to artificially raise test scores, which they shouldn’t need having access to the best education possible. Poor students would get the same advantages. No minorities would face poverty because of their ethnic background. Ah, utopia. </p>

<p>Had to throw some of my thoughts in the ring long after remembering the original post. I’m glad the status quo has been upset, even if imperfectly.</p>

<p>Addenda- given the immigration patterns to this country the numbers would not reflect the demograhics of our society I mentioned above. An example is the brain drain from Asia and the least successful from our own region creating disparities.</p>

<p>pugmadkate, </p>

<p>I’ve personally not met anyone who said they were a legacy and refused to identify themselves as such. Frankly, I think legacy status is often overrated-- especially by parents who think their annual donation will get junior into their ivy alma mater. I know of a kid who had both parents and 3 older siblings attend a top LAC (one or two were currently attending when she applied) and I think she was in the range-- yet she wasn’t accepted. I know it does matter at some schools and I know it’s a great tip-- but I guess I figure why be upset? Those top schools became what they are by admitting generations of rich, WASP, prep-school educated legacies and donors. It can’t surprise me that they still admit legacies and donors. I’m just glad the rest of our kids have a chance now.</p>

<p>What about people with physical or sensory (hearing/visual impairments, blind, Deaf)? I certainly look noticeably “different” from the majority population, have had difference experiences, have been discriminated against on the basis of how I look, have been this way my entire life, and yet am not considered a “minority”?</p>

<p>Are African-Americans still discriminated against, no matter what their socio-economic status and educational achievements? yes. I’ve seen it happen.
Are high-achieving African American students who get into top schools suspected of being there only through AA? Yes, I’ve seen that happen, too.
Do middle-class African-American students bring diversity to a college campus? Yes, they do.
But they are not the only ones who do. A poor white kid from Appalachia, a student who comes from a Midwestern farm background also does.
I went to college on a scholarship for international students. I learned a huge amount from my fellow internationals and collectively, we brought very different perspectives and experience to a student body that was otherwise extremely homogeneous and 90% urban.</p>

<p>I had a college classmate who was “Hispanic” but who failed Spanish – not because he was speaking colloquial Spanish and the class focused on literature, but because he was inherently bad at languages and had never been exposed to Spanish before. I always thought that sounded a little strange . .</p>

<p>Momzie, I’m Ghanian but don’t speak a lick of Gha. I’m certain I would do poorly in a Gha class. Does that make me less Ghanian?</p>

<p>Actually, back on topic, I think the problem here has nothing to do with the school. Admissions officers have a lot of information at their disposal, but they don’t really know an applicant. I think its the students and their parents who are gaming the system. I don’t think the blame lies with the colleges. There is not much a college can do to “verify” someone’s race. How do they know a student is not totally Native American, or what not? There are definitely some problems with the system… but moreso, there are people taking advantage of the system.</p>

<p>Commentary on President Barack Obama’s widely reported remarks on this issue: </p>

<p>[The</a> Century Foundation News & Commentary: Barack Obama, Tony Jack and Affirmative Action](<a href=“http://www.tcf.org/print.asp?type=NC&pubid=1589]The”>http://www.tcf.org/print.asp?type=NC&pubid=1589)</p>

<p>It stuns me that we are having this discussion only months after the outpouring of emotion over Barack Obama’s election and inauguration showed how much race does still matter to people. Obama is exactly who the OP was talking about – light skin, mixed race, raised almost entirely by a white mother and white grandparents, educated at the toniest prep school in his state, his obvious cultural diversity came more from Hawaii and his time in Indonesia than his skin color. Yet, he identifies as Black, he is identified by others as Black, and coming to terms with his identity as a Black man was clearly one of the critical events of his personal development. And, despite clearly attracting suspicions of “not being Black enough,” his success in the ultimate merit competition has profound meaning for America’s Black community and for people of color all over the world.</p>

<p>So . . . did Occidental, and Columbia, and maybe Harvard Law School stick an extra weight in the scale when they admitted him? Sure, almost certainly. Was it a good idea? Are they glad they did? Are YOU glad they did? You bet!</p>

<p>I agree with a college wanting diversity but if the student was born in US and his parents were also born here, I do not see much diversity to the exception of the color of their skin or maybe a second language. Diversity for me is more having been raised in another country or from first generation parent immigrant.</p>

<p>Marite, I agree that the farm kid /rural kid or first generation kid have a lot to offer. I guess I don’t see it as having to be a choice between them and a minority kid. AA to me refers to minority. The applications have spots for telling what the parents do for a living and how much education they have. I assume those questions lead to developing socioeconomic diversity on campus. The two groups do not necessarily have to be in competition with each other. I am trying to encourage a really bright farm kid to look outside of Minnesota for college. With his ACT score he would be snapped up by eastern colleges. </p>

<p>JHS - If you want to be stunned speechless, read the thread called Should Affirmative Action Consider Social Class. Some one was actually in complete seriousness that blacks have lower IQs than Jews.</p>

<p>Actually, applicannot – if you’re regularly involved with your culture and are being given a significant break on the admissions requirements by virtue of the diversity that you bring as a representative of your culture – then it would be very surprising if you didn’t speak “a lick” of your native language. The other Hispanic students certainly found it strange that he had never been to a spanish-speaking church as they had, or talked to his grandparents (as they had) or been exposed to spanish language television in the homes of his relatives, travelled back home to visit relatives, maybe even had relatives in the process of immigrating stay in his house for a period of time. In any of this situations, you would presumably be exposed to your native language. If you have no familiarity with the culture which you supposedly represent and have had no dealings with others of that culture, I think it’s fair to question whether you do, in actuality, represent that culture in such a way that you are contributing to the college community through your representation of it.</p>

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<p>Preferences or demerits for certain groups have always generated deep emotions in people, especially in college admission — a zero sum game. Is it really stunning? President (and Senator) Obama clearly does not think so.</p>

<p>Excerpts from Obama’s book Audacity of Hope:
“I imagine the white Southerner who growing up heard his dad talk about ■■■■■■■ this and ■■■■■■■ that but who has struck up a friendship with the black guys at the office and is trying to teach his own son different, who thinks discrimination is wrong but doesn’t see why the son of a black doctor should get admitted into law school ahead of his own son.” </p>

<p>“Even as we continue to defend affirmative action as a useful, if limited, tool to expand opportunity to underrepresented minorities, we should consider spending a lot more of our political capital convincing America to make the investments needed to ensure that all children perform at grade level and graduate from high school — a goal that, if met, would do more than affirmative action to help those black and Latino children who need it the most… An emphasis on universal, as opposed to race-specific, programs isn’t just good policy; it’s also good politics.”</p>

<p>twomules:</p>

<p>That’s the point, isn’t it? Diversity involves many different facets, and colleges do try to create communities that are diverse in different ways. Face diversity is valuable in an of itself, but there are different experiences and perspectives that are also valuable. </p>

<p>I am personally not too concerned about people “gaming” the system. So many things in life are susceptible to being “gamed.” If there are boxes for checking ethnicity and if a student qualifies, why not?</p>

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<p>Well, yes. It probably means that you have spent virtually no time living in Ghana or participating in Ghanian society. So while your ancestry may be Ghanian, culrturally you are not.</p>

<p>My ancestry is half Finnish. I don’t speak a lick of Finnish. I’ve never participated in Finnish culture. I don’t go around calling myself “a Finn.”</p>

<p>I’m an American. It sounds as if you are, too.</p>