<p>They do have chamber groups. I am not quite understanding your post. When my daughter was there, ISO never played YMCA. A few pieces I remember ISO played are Berlioz Symphonie Fatastique, Dvorak New World Symphony, Ravel, Rimskykosakov(Did I spell this right?) In addition there is a solo competition she can participate and win. I don’t know why your daughter isn’t playing in ISO or ICO. Those are the two orchestras better wind players play.</p>
<p>My daughter isn’t in the orhcestras. She doesn’t understand it–she is principal oboe in a local youth symphony here as has performed a considerable amount of standard orchestral literature already, including the symphonies you mentioned. She said that the players chosen for the orchestra were chosen by the audition tapes in January, and that there is no switching around or challanges once they get to Interlochen. no chamber music. Her private oboe teacher thought her audition tapes were good and should have landed her in a number 1 or 2 position at Interlochen. So we are puzzled, and she is very depressed about her situation. As someone posted, that’s the problem with inflexible programs; they aren’t willing to fix whatever mistake they made.</p>
<p>Also, she is not allowed to participate in the solo competition, as she is only there for three weeks, not six weeks.</p>
<p>WW-</p>
<p>I would suggest to your D that she talk to the director there about her situation, and ask why, given her background, she ended up being placed as she was (if they are playing “YMCA”, that sounds like the stuff I did in my middle school orchestra days, which was pretty dismal stuff). I suspect it won’t do much of anything for this session, but to try and find out what the snafu was. Did someone not listen to her audition tape, or look at her background? (The BUTI program, for example, is pretty competitive, and I know the main orchestra program is generally tough to get into, as as the chamber programs and such)? If for anything, to figure out why she ended up playing with a low level group when higher level options were open. I think given what you are paying to attend there, they owe her at least that much, and if they refuse to say why, then it says a lot about them. One note, if they come back with the old 'life is not fair, learn to deal with it shtick" then that really says a lot, and it isn’t complimentary; yeah, life isn’t fair, but you also don’t expect to have to deal with it in a place where there is every expectation of at least some level of fairness, that would be a cop out. </p>
<p>Likewise, I would heartily suggest afterwords that you and she write a follow up letter, detailing her experience and what was wrong with it and suggestions to improve things in the future. Not that you will get anything out of it directly, but for one, it can lead to closure for both of your parts, and secondly, hopefully, maybe it will mean they will look at the way they run things and improve things so it doesn’t happen to someone else. One of the problems with almost anything is that often the only feedback they get is from people who had a glowing time, who think the place is the cat’s meow, and they start believing their own PR which isn’t good.</p>
<p>It is true at the HS level at Interlochen Camp you either audition into the orchestra level or the band level based on the CD you sent in.
IF YOU ARE TOO LATE on your app, it is possible orchestra was filled?? Perhaps you should seek clarification on this point.
On competitive instruments, there WILL be gifted, competitive students at Interlochen. Sorry, there is NOT one child who is deserving of first all the time, whatever the level or ensemble. It is an international music camp and we have met gifted students from quite a few countries.
Please don’t look at band as a put-down - at HS level they have had valuable ensembles and conductors.
Again, I can’t speak to Intermediate level. The best plan is to direct criticisms to the Camp.</p>
<p>Just checked Interlochen’s website - Camp concerto competition winners announced for High School and Intermediate levels. Each will perform as soloist with a major ensemble. Did your daughter enter the competition for Intermediate? This should have provided an additional challenge, for those who feel they have a lot of extra time on their hands.</p>
<p>Thanks again to everyone for the replies. I really believe the internet is useful this way, and I wish I’d been able to read comments like this BEFORE sending my daughter to this camp.
I have been calling the camp directors for the past 10 days, but only today have they returned calls and taken me seriously, or at least they say they are. The best place to direct criticism is online however, where people do listen and information is circulated.
One director told me my daughter’s acceptance may have come too late to have been considered for the orchestra slots. We were waiting to hear from Tanglewood and accepted about 2 weeks after the initial deadline, and we changed sessions as well.
My point is not that my daughter deserves 1st chair–I know there are many talented students in the world–but she should be placed at the appropriate LEVEL, regardless of whether there are 2 or 200 people seated in front of her. If her level was full, the camp should have advised us of that fact. A student who performs concertos and has played 1st in orchestras playing major orchestral literature should not be placed into a group playing YMCA or Mary had a Little Lamb.
We will be writing Interlochen a letter. And we will send a copy of it to every music professional we know.</p>
<p>In response to lateparty, only those musicians who signed up for the full 6 weeks were allowed to audition for the concerto competition. My D was disppointed about that too.</p>
<p>Woodwinds,
I understand how upset you are that your daughter is not having a good experience at Interlochen, but I’m not sure that writing a letter to every music professional you know is a good idea. Let you and your daughter have cooling off period before you write a letter to Interlochen and especially before you write letters to people who are not connected to Interlochen. </p>
<p>It seems from Interlochen’s website that all Intermediate woodwind players participate in the wind symphony and “the most advanced” participate in the ISO. ISO participation is determined from the audition CD. It’s not clear to me what instrument your daughter is playing at Interlochen since it seems like she plays more than one instrument. For example if she plays oboe, there may only be a very small number of spots in the ISO. Is it possible that those spots were given to students who applied before she did?</p>
<p>Instead of writing letters to all the music professionals you know, maybe you could use your knowledge to help other parents going through the process? What have you learned that could help other parents…for example, is the repertoire for a summer program posted on the website before you have to commit? Both Interlochen and Tanglewood have posted repertoire on their websites. If you knew this information before hand, would you have sent your daughter to Interlochen?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Good advice. I would definitely wait a few days after your d is home, and after you and she have a bit more time to talk in depth, and perhaps benefit a bit from hindsight. There may be additional contact between you and the officials at the program in the interim. Take names and dates of contact, and do make your notes and log your thoughts now as an outline and be able to cite specifics when you do sit down to compose. </p>
<p>I would be hesitant at this point to blindly send copies of your initial letter to music professionals. Personally, I would pen a letter addressing your concerns and wait for a response from Interlochen. In the event they seem distant and unconcerned, then that may be an appropriate action. If they address your concerns in a reasonable way, and seem to be reflective and anxious to avoid these problems from future attendees, it may not be necessary. </p>
<p>The music word can be very small, and it is not a wise idea to potentially slam doors shut and step on toes. </p>
<p>At the same time one need not accept what is perceived as a poor experience, and it may be necessary to share that information with others. </p>
<p>Dialog and awaiting their response to me appears more appropriate now. I would defer further action until that time.</p>
<p>But that’s just my $.02.</p>
<p>I looked up the repertoire for Wind Symphony at Interlochen. I don’t see YMCA. Here’s an example; Peregrin: A Traveler’s Tale Blue Tango Slim Trombone All the starry band Serenade for a Pickett Fence Rollo takes a walk Choreography and others.</p>
<p>According to their website, you know if you will also be playing in the orchestra when you are accepted. If accepted to play in the orchestra, you have to do the live audition for the seating assignment when you arrive at camp.</p>
<p>I would think you knew your D won’t be playing in the orchestra when you sent her there. You must also have known that there’s only an hour practice. They send you the daily schedule in advance. Interlochen is not a boot camp. It is not regimental, either. They have 4-500 campers in the intermediate division alone. They need rules and structure to move them along but not regimental. It works. They produced many happy campers for many summers.</p>
<p>Is “YMCA” the 70’s song by the Village People, or is it an acronym for something often played in beginning bands? Just curious after reading through the thread.</p>
<p>In response, one of the groups my daughter has been put in played a song called “YMCA” at the last concert, along with other very basic pieces. I don’t know which group.</p>
<p>I looked back at my D’s acceptance letter. All it said was that she was accepted; nothing about which group she would play in. We only received her schedule with the wind symphony AFTER we had paid in full–too late to opt out then! Again, I assumed that since they had listened to her audition CD performing the Mozart concerto, they would place her into an appropriate performing group.</p>
<p>I had no idea she would be limited to the one hour of practice–in her case, two hours a day, since she is also taking bassoon lessons. At Tanglewood, she was free to practice all evening and every evening if she felt like it.</p>
<p>The weekend is very frustrating too. There is much disorganization and most activities do not come through–no sailing, no trips.</p>
<p>Woodwinds-
I agree with violadad, don’t do anything in the moment. It could be that your D got shut out of orchestra or high level ensembles because things happened late (I couldn’t tell from your posts, did you apply late, or were they late in accepting her?). It also could be like with the concerto competition that they tend to give priority to kids there for the 6 weeks (I am not certain) for the higher level slots, not certain. As someone else suggested, it also could be because she was on oboe, they had limited slots and a number of high level kids there, and they use the lower level wind ensemble as a ‘dumping ground’ for those where slots weren’t open on the higher level (though frankly, if they do it that way, that would be dishonest IMO, because putting a student who is high level into a lower level program smacks of wanting the tuition payment, it also is cruel, much better not to accept them. Would be kind of like Juilliard accepting a student they didn’t have a slot for, taking their tuition, and substituting a grad student teacher and a community orchestra. Not saying they did that, but if they did, oye…).</p>
<p>My big concern if it played out as noted, is if they don’t explain what happened, if they in effect say “that is the way it is”. If you applied late,and that is why, they should have told you the situation. Unfortunately, one of the probems with large programs of any kind is they tend to have communication issues IME. </p>
<p>I also agree with others, I wouldn’t send out letters broadband to ‘music professinals’ like that, if for anything to protect your daughter. I understand your feelings, and our first instinct is to try and prevent such a thing from happening to others or ‘letting the truth out’, but I speak from experience in that you may not want to do that. Music is a small world, and I can tell you from experience that doing something like that can get a negative image projected about your D (fair or not doesn’t matter). It will be treated like the pushy parents who intercede with their children, who demand to know why their child didn’t win the concerto competition, why the music director didn’t make them concertmaster, with the teacher demanding to know why they aren’t teaching them the tchaikovsky violin concerto, or the mother who screams when a coach in a chamber program alternates the second and first violin role and their child is good enough to only play first…</p>
<p>The other part of this, quite frankly, is that some or many of the ‘music professionals’ you send letters to may be partisans of Interlochen, who see any criticism of the program as being tantamount to criticizing their religion. You see it on posts on these boards all the time, where someone gets their nose bent out of joint because something they hold dear is criticized, or where something they believe is questioned, etc. You can end up on the wrong end of this, where someone gets their nose bent out of joint and starts a ‘counter campaign’, and it could get ugly (this is true all over, not just the music world). Because music is such a small world, because there are people who could do real damage to your D’s future, I would think twice about doing anything that out there or something that even smacks of being over the top parenting. It sounds like something out of a 19th century novel, where someone stepping out of line is blackballed, but in an insular world like music, such a thing is very possible if the wrong people get their nose bent out of joint IME. </p>
<p>I think the best bet is to try and find ways to make your D’s remaining time there as productive as possible, work with them as much as they allow, and then after she comes home, take some time to process what happen, and write something back detailing what bothered you, for reasons I wrote about in another post. I don’t know if it would do any good, and there are places in the music community where people running programs like festivals and competitions get full of themselves, act like petty dictators, but this is still the best way to go. And having dealt with bad experiences, including competitions whose results made me wonder if people judging them saw the same thing I did, all I can say is in short while it simply won’t matter, that bad experiences once out of them basically fade into the background.No program, including Interlochen, is worth getting too upset about IMO, none of them are that important, none of them (despite the hype) make or break a young musicians career, and sadly disappointment and needing a thick skin are a big part of the music game. Doesn’t make it any less stinkly, like the bad guy at the beginning of “Raiders of the Lost Ark” tells Indy, you may have lost, kid, but you don’t have to like it":)</p>
<p>WW,</p>
<p>First let me echo the advice to take a deep breath. The music world is way too small for you to be trashing Interlochen (or any other well regarded institution) based upon a brief experience as an intermediate student. And if your daughter is as good as you say she is (and I am not doubting you) then she will be the beneficiary of many opportunities going forward. The last thing she needs is to be branded the daughter of an overreacting stage parent (and I’m not saying you are one, just that you could get yourself perceived as one).</p>
<p>I know people who have done the three week intermediate camp and the six week high school camp at Interlochen. My sense is that if you had more information about the three week intermediate camp either you would be pleased because you would have known to expect this and sent your daughter there with expectations that would have been met, or you would have sent your daughter elsewhere.</p>
<p>Second, the notion of an “appropriate performing group” at summer camps is, based upon what I’ve seen, usually a group a notch below the student’s ability. Why? Because the concerts are attended by donors and other supporters. Those audiences need to hear music played well, not students reaching beyond their current capabilities. The latter occurs in the lesson rooms and the practice huts, not when donors are present. I’ve found this to be very touch for some parents to swallow, seeing their young musicians playing pieces that they played a couple of years earlier. But it’s the norm from what I’ve seen.</p>
<p>Additionally, your daughter plays a wind instrument and there may not be positions in the highest ensemble for which she is qualified. This is something that wind players have to accept throughout their careers. A good example would be a senior in high school that I know well, someone who has been accepted at a competitive conservatory, and who didn’t get into WYSO or WYWS this season. </p>
<p>Finally, the idea that any camp could tell you that your “level” is full really isn’t workable for a host of reasons including but not limited to:</p>
<ul>
<li>audition recording shenanigans;</li>
<li>improvement or regression since audition recordings;</li>
<li>commitment at the camp;</li>
<li>how quickly a student can learn new repertoire; and</li>
<li>the need to fill all of their ensembles.</li>
</ul>
<p>I’ll admit that I am biased toward Interlochen and their methods as my child is there for a fourth year, but our first year experience was with a teacher who was not first choice for us (but a fine teacher and excellent performer), an unsuccessful audition for WYSO, and essentially being knocked down a peg because my child was principal in the local youth orchestra and couldn’t crack the back stand of the top orchestra at Interlochen. Compare that to the past two years: principal cellist at times, solo passages in a piece that was broadcast on NPR, honors recitals, relationships with multiple cello instructors, an Emerson Scholarship, canoeing, etc. Working your way up is the way of the music world.</p>
<p>As for the extracurricular activities at Interlochen, the camp keeps a pretty tight rein on the intermediates and over-scripts their days for reasons that should be obvious. I suspect that the experience your daughter was seeking is far closer to the six week high school experience. It may be that (the food notwithstanding) she decides that Interlochen is the place for her in a future summer. For her sake, maybe that’s a reason to tread lightly.</p>
<p>Thanks again for the responses; they really do help to educate and share necessary information that I wish, as I said, I’d had beforehand via internet discussions.</p>
<p>Musicprint is correct, in the first paragraph, that they had a high number of advanced students and limited orchestral slots; they have used the lower ensemble as a dumping ground without notifying us that there were no appropriate levels available as we signed up late after the orchestra slots were committed. It is dishonest, and instead of getting a committed musician returning for high school, she never wants to attend Int*rlochen again.</p>
<p>I have no doubt that many musicians have had wonderful learning experiences there, and I have heard just that from many music professionals myself. However, that doesn’t mean that those same musicians couldn’t be unlucky and find themselves in my D’s situation. I don’t think institutions should behave in this manner. I intend to discuss this with music professionals I know. One of her private instructors does have connections with Int*rlochen. I don’t plan however on sending out massive e-mails to people I don’t know.</p>
<p>I have worked out with one of the directors that my D will switch instruments, as she has equal playing ability on several woodwinds. This new instrument is under-attended and my D will be able to play in the orchestra and fill in an open slot. She is very happy with this development. However, other musicians in her position would not be able to switch in this manner, as she is unusual in that she plays several instruments at a high level. They have also added a small chamber ensemble this week, at my suggestion.</p>
<p>Speihei, you are correct, if I’d had the full and correct information, I would not have sent my D this year. I would have waited one year, and then perhaps they would have had a four-year attendee. I don’t agree that the over-scripting and babysitting reasons are obvious. My daughter doesn’t need them and thrived at Tanglewood at age 14 in the high school program.</p>
<p>I wish they had responded when I’d called as my D has suffered for two weeks there.</p>
<p>When we picked up our DD last August and asked her - what did you learn here, the first thing she said was “I learned how to unclog a toilet!” I’ll never forget those words.</p>
<p>Though the HS program may be fabulous, and some have a wonderful experience in intermediate, she has moved on and will “head” elsewhere in the future.</p>
<p>^^Toilet repair was also my D’s most important life lesson at a different summer program that she also chose not to attend for a second year.</p>
<p>Given the salary differential between plumbing and viola performance, maybe we should have taken that as a hint…</p>
<p>stradmom, it would worry me if musicians start to fix the toilet. They may hook up a wrong end. My D was at a summer program on a university campus. Musicians were doing the adm. In the dorm assignment, girls got boys’ floor with only three showers and boys ended up on girls’ floor.</p>
<p>WW, While I feel unfortunate that you D is not happy, I have to say it is Interlochen who is misrepresented in your posts in THREE threads. Your posts suggest all they do at Interlochen is walk in duck boots while playing toy instruments. Not once you mention there are challenging programs that your D didn’t make the cut on the instrument of her first choice. From where I stand those challenging programs are the main stay at Interlochen intermediate music division. When you look at an elephant, do you look at its trunk and big ears and admire or…?</p>
<p>I feel that a camp should place a student at the appropriate LEVEL, regardless if there are better students that “make the cut”. In our case, we switched sessions well after the acceptance date, and that might have been why my D was not considered for orchestra. I did not mind her placement into the wind symphony, in theory, as I assumed that she would still be placed at the appropriate level. Perhaps at the high school level there is not as much difference between performing group levels, I don’t know. But I have learned from numerous PMs that Int<em>rlochen routinely has the lower groups perform very basic pieces as they are crowd pleasers. If I’d known that my D would be put into a group playing basic music, I certainly would not have sent her. She was accepted at other camps and could have there. Others have mentioned that Int</em>rlochen has ALL groups play a few years below their level so that the recordings sound good.</p>
<p>I also don’t like the “games” and non-music activities. This weekend they are playing “Assassins” where they have to try to “kill” each other off. My D says she now feels nervous all the time and I don’t see the point of this.</p>