Interlochen Summer Questions

College Majors Music Major
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<p>WW, I’m sure you realized that the concept of “level” is subjective, so it will never be possible for any program to place every student at what is mutually agreed to be an appropriate level. This is true of any instrument, but will be more of an issue on a very competitive instrument for which there are few prime spots. </p>

<p>I hear your frustration and anger about the amount of money and time spent on your daughter’s summer program. Sometimes, though, the best lessons are not the ones you paid for or were expecting. You and your daughter are experiencing what may turn out to be a microcosm of the musical world of her future. Every one of us on this board has either experienced or witnessed situations in which a student’s capabilities were recognized by one institution and not another. The reasons can be myriad (as outlined by others below); nothing is guaranteed. One needs to learn how to survive with grace in a situation where one feels frustrated and under-appreciated.</p>

<p>I’ve found that it helps to approach camp situations with humble expectations-- more often than not you will be pleasantly surprised rather than disappointed. Even if your daughter ends the program feeling that she has not progressed musically, the time spent there will have provided her with some kind of growth experience.</p>

<p>It sounds as if your daughter had positive experiences at other camps, so (to state the obvious) it would probably make sense for her to return to those programs in the future and not go back to the program she found so disappointing. Meanwhile, although I hear your concerns about her playing watered-down student arrangements rather than challenging music, it’s also probably a good opportunity to help her realize that there are benefits to working on music that is not at the threshold of your current technical ability. In the strings world, every high school quartet wants to play Bartok, Shostakovitch, and Ravel, and students often feel insulted when assigned a quartet by Haydn or Mozart because the latter are not difficulty technically. But as kids mature they come to appreciate that it takes much greater skill and maturity to play the more transparent classical pieces with style and musicality. </p>

<p>About the game Assassin: this is a very popular group game, sort of in the same category as Capture the Flag. All four of my kids have played it at camps, school retreats, slumber parties, etc.</p>

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<p>Once more from a parent of Interlochen alumni (HS Camp and Academy).
Our musicians met many people through Interlochen - I expect it will be lifelong networking.</p>

<p>I also think when it comes to Interlochen the more you know about it the better you like it. People (including the occasional music professional) who haven’t visited Interlochen (open year round) and seen it firsthand have little understanding of the place and the institution. It is a place with special inspiration and magic (‘Interlochen magic’). </p>

<p>We did not experience intermediate Camp level at Interlochen, however I have been on campus during summer and seen plenty of well-behaved, happy, intelligent-looking intermediates. When my musicians were that age they attended multiple summer programs. One summer one of mine did four. There are a lot of short summer music programs around. May help to put it all in perspective?</p>

<p>Trying to make blanket statements about a large, busy year-round institution with multiple programs – if one has had only a snippet of experience – is unfortunate. Am I correct that WW’s daughter was only there for 3 weeks?</p>

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<p>I never enrolled my child in a summer program at Interlochen because the price appeared so high and because it is in the woods (my child preferred the kind of program that is on a college campus in which the students stay in a dorm and wear their regular clothes instead of uniforms). </p>

<p>I have no personal experience with Interlochen and no personal opinion about the place. In the part of the country where I live (Midwest), Interlochen is extremely well known and highly regarded. If I mentioned that my child was going to a summer music program (went to several over the middle school and high school years), most people instantly replied “Interlochen?” </p>

<p>I think that when a large program with such a great reputation and long track record as Interlochen is criticized, most people are going to hear the remarks as sour grapes or find some explanation for the complaint that would see the situation as an isolated incident not reflecting badly on the program as a whole. (Sort of like if someone went to Harvard and did not have a good experience there). </p>

<p>I agree with those who have said that the music community is small and well-connected. I have heard of several situations in which students who had bad experiences with a particular teacher or administrator of a music summer program or after school program came across the same people in other settings later, such as on entering college. There is no way to avoid this kind of thing. Better not to burn or even damage bridges. </p>

<p>Also, in general, I think people who post here ought to be careful about the possibility of being identifiable by information revealed in their postings. </p>

<p>Finally, wanted to report a few observations from having a child in several summer programs. First, regarding this complaint about repertoire being lower than a student is used to playing, I saw this in two places in which the repertoire was assigned on the first day of the program. These were programs that lasted no more than two weeks. For piano, the assignment of an easier piece than the students were accustomed to playing was done in order to get the pieces memorized and polished by the time of the public performance on the last day, as well as have time for other things the students were doing (studying music theory, four hand piano, etc). My personal opinion of that model for piano is that it may feel like a horse race. </p>

<p>After experience with another type of program in which students were asked to bring various pieces of music they were working on, with the most polished one performed in a public recital, the experience seemed more enjoyable and useful since many of the students were making a lot of progress on their audition repertoire, rather than rushing to learn something that they probably would never play again. </p>

<p>I also remember a program that was a cross between the two types I mentioned in which some of the music (piano part of a piano trio or quartet) was assigned a couple of months before the summer program so the chamber music experience was more challenging/rewarding than it could have been if the same music had been assigned on the first day. That seemed to work very well. </p>

<p>I think an important part of summer programs, especially for a piano student, is to meet and get to know other kids involved with music, build intrinsic motivation/discipline, get exposure to repertoire, get feedback etc. Having fun is important too.</p>

<p>As someone who did not spend such a large amount of money for summer programs as Interlochen costs, I may not have a right to say this, but I view these summer programs more holistically than some. Even in the two most intense programs my child attended, there was time built in for socializing and doing some structured non-music activities. It was ok to me if the programs are not “all music, all the time” or that my child’s favorite memories from the program included things that did not have to do with music.</p>

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<p>I have hesitated to post on this thread until this point, because I really don’t know Interlochen at all (except by reputation), and because it gets pretty easy to jump on a poster who seems to be saying all the wrong things.</p>

<p>I do want to reiterate a couple of important points though. I don’t know whether instructors from Interlochen, or college teachers/administrators in general, read this board, but I have always suspected that a number of them do, which is one reason I have always felt it was really, really important to take great care in what one posts. It really is not all that difficult to figure out who someone is from the identifying information. When someone is complaining, or dissing a program, I would just be careful. People’s memories are long, and whiners almost never end up on top. Talent only takes one so far; personality is a huge component of success as well.</p>

<p>My recommendation is that your daughter look at an experience such as this as a growth one. Isn’t there anyone with whom to make friends? I am sure there has got to be an activity or two that would interest her, even if Assassins doesn’t (and that I understand completely, since I really loathe that game myself).</p>

<p>I just would be very, very careful what you post. The music world is absolutely tiny, really. I would never want my daughter to get a reputation as a whiner, or one with a superiority complex (even if might be deserved). Our children can learn a lot from not being the best, from making do, from trying to make something positive from something less than that.</p>

<p>I hope things improve. In the meantime, as her parent, I hope you will help her find the positive. Remember, you set the tone, and can have a huge impact on her experience. And I hope you will remember that whatever you say easily identifies your daughter, and that people who may one day be potential teachers are also reading what you write (and may make negative judgements about your D, as a result).</p>

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<p>Wisely stated, Allmusic. Especially your comment…“trying to make something positive from something less than that…” Of course that is a great lesson that we all can embrace whether in music, work life, family, etc. Thanks for the reminder!</p>

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<p>lateparty, Yes to Interlochen magic. It’s a place music is front and center. No longer on a borrowed space or an afterthought. Not a stepchild to athletics or other “important” venues at school. Kresege is built for music not for football. You breathe music, you live in it. It’s OK to play music. In fact, everyone is doing it. You go to the Bowl, you go to the Shed, you go to the Opera tent. You detour around the Writing House, you trip over someone’s easel. You never have to dodge a ball coming your way at high speed. If you go to a suburban school where anyone with a face plays soccer and you don’t, you get liberated at Interlochen. If all your classmates drop instruments to pick up sports in the middle school, the Intermediate division validates you. </p>

<p>Anyone can diss the program if they wish. But if they have to diss all the girls there, 3-400 of them as immature and diss all the directors there as having agenda, that seems trying a bit too hard.</p>

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<p>I’ve been pondering this thread for a bit and last night asked my D, a high school senior who has attended 3 different camps over the years, her opinion.</p>

<p>She said “Oh mom, summer music camp is about SO much more than the music. It’s about getting 60 kids who don’t know each other to play like they have played together for years.” She went on to talk about how important the “games” are to getting everyone to become friends and know each other, because you play better when you know/like the people you’re playing with.</p>

<p>She also said that sometimes it is good to have easy music because it allows you to work on the other things like intonation, sound and really learning to watch the conductor (something many middle schoolers have trouble with especially when the music is difficult).</p>

<p>Just thought I’d pass that along.</p>

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<p>Flute-
I think your D’s observation is valid, that things like games can help build a sense of group with the kids, and so forth. Her response also made me think, after being part of this thread and this discussion, about why kids respond the way they do.</p>

<p>The problem is that that approach won’t work for all kids which is part of the problem I suspect we are wrestling with, the assumption that somehow the way a program approaches things is best for all kids (and I have heard things described like this by administrators and teachers, that this is how ‘kids’ best are taught). The problem is not all kids react the same way, and what works even for many kids might not work for a sizeable group of others (or adults, for that matter)</p>

<p>-game and such building group skills? Yep, very true, it can. The problem is that this doesn’t work for all students. If a music student has been playing in high level ensembles already, done a lot of chamber and group work (especially outside the school programs, which having gone through them are not necessarily great group builders or ensemble experience), this may not work for them in the sense that they already have the mindset that when in a group, you play as one. Take a kid who has done a lot of performing, and this might seem trivial, whereas other kids eat it up. </p>

<p>-Playing lower level pieces to be able to focus on intonation, watching the conductor, etc. For many middle school music students, this is probably very valid (can speak from experience on that one with my own background), but again, with a music student who is already serious, who has already played in high level programs, has gotten their intonation down, watches the conductor routinely (or as with some kids WW D’s age I know, literally memorize their parts so they can watch the conductor, including during really high level repertoire a la Stravinsky or Strauss or many ‘modern pieces’, where watching the conductor is critical).</p>

<p>Flute’s D was right on the money for most kids, in other words, where such an approach works.</p>

<p>It highlights an issue that is common with many programs or groups, not just music festivals, in that there are kids who are out on the other end of the bell curve. A child who has done a lot of high level ensemble work, who is at the technical level of a competitive pre college program like CIM’s, Juilliard or NEC is going to be well above this level, and the approach may just be boring for them (they also could love it), not to mention that kids are at different points developmentally (an 11 year old might love playing assasin or whatever, a 14 year old might find it boring <em>shrug</em>).</p>

<p>It is one of the downsides to programs that take into account physical age only or other rigid criteria, I have seen that with our S, where the program heads use age to determine groupings, and the kids end up with people well below their playing level or seriousness and end up miserable. It would be great if programs could recognize this, but it is difficult to administer such programs fairly, and it can be hard to determine if a younger student advanced technically would be mature enough emotionally to deal with playing with older students.</p>

<p>The answer is finding a fit, but that can be difficult to find out the ‘reality’ of programs. A parent saying “my child loved it” or a student saying “it was awesome” means they found it valuable, that it worked for them, but that is subjective. What to one student is a challenging environment would be to another yawn inducing. Websites help a bit, they let you see curricula, faculty and so forth, but it also has to be remembered that programs, like colleges and companies and such, are also trying to sell themselves to get people to send their kids there, thus many music festivals, for example, sell themselves as intensive, high level, etc but under examination, wouldn’t meet that criteria for a lot of high level students (and I am not saying this about any specific program, talking in general). Because of the fact that so much is subjective, and music programs are competing for students, it can be really difficult to get ‘real’ information about a program that can help avoid</p>

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<p>Let’s me clear we distinguish between High School level and Intermediate levels. If someone joins this thread midstream, they might get the general notion that Interlochen plays easy rep. That would be an incorrect blanket statement. I am CERTAIN that world class high school musicians will find definite challenges at Interlochen -whether Camp or Academy. I have seen this in multiple cases with highly gifted youth over multiple years at Interlochen. Highly advanced musicians can be and are highly satisfied with association with Interlochen. My students did NOT play any “games.”
Please keep it clear the OP was discussing intermediate level.</p>

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<p>What’s wrong with playing games? Wasn’t the ultimate freesbie invented at Interlochen? Talking of games and having fun, the Interlochen tubaist who goofed around wearing the bee costume and fell in the lake for something or other is now with the Philadelphia Orchestra. Not bad.</p>

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<p>The game my D played at Interlochen Intermediate last year was called banana relay. Intermediate girls placed a banana between their legs, far above the knee and had to walk briskly and then transfer the banana to an Interlochen Intermediate boy, again between his legs, above the knee. Then visa versa. My D (14 at the time) felt that this activity was “gross” and my wife and I felt it was inappropriate. Fortunately no therapy was required. I’m sure there are plenty of people that would see nothing wrong with this game, but I know that a few people that I’ve PM’d here in the past were shocked at the story and at least one person thought it was revolting. In all honestly that activity really turned me off on Interlochen Intermediate, and I still relay that story to anyone that is thinking of going there for the Intermediate program, along with positive things as well. Now we can add the game of Assassin, which evidently parallels capture the flag (though it sure does not appear like that, at least to my eyes). If I were to read this thread as a parent, thinking about sending my kid to Interlochen Intermediate, I don’t know what I’d think at all. Perhaps I would think that one person had the courage to complain, publicly. We all should realize there will always be intermediate students that have a great time there (and count the weeks till they return), there will be ones that have a so-so time and there will be the one’s that do not enjoy the time they spend at Interlochen at all.
It seems that the rule here is “if you have nothing nice to say, don’t say anything at all”. Understandable, given the business of music and the underlying ever present politics that go with it, as it also is, in so many fields.</p>

<p>I think if we look at this thread, much of it would never been written at all, if Interlochen had simply returned a phone call in a prompt manner to the parent whose kid has been having a bad experience and listened to the parents concerns early on. I do not believe the delay in the return phone call can be blamed on the parent. This board certainly should be a welcoming place and an understanding place as well, where opinions and the feelings that come with them are treated fairly and with no hostility. To me, at least some of these responses are hostile in nature and completely inappropriate to a forum member. It appears that some people that post here regularly and help steer what occurs in these threads are either away for the summer or have bailed out. Perhaps the climate is changing and is no longer as warm as it once was. Perhaps I’m wrong. </p>

<p>I have learned a tremendous amount here over a few years and hope that any input on threads or PM’s that I have sent were in someway useful to the recipients. Many of you have helped me and that has been greatly appreciated. I wish all well with future camp experiences, college auditions and life at the colleges chosen. Best of luck to all these students in the future with their passion, music.
Signing Off
JD</p>

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<p>There is nothing wrong with games or playing games, that can be a lot of fun, and it isn’t that a place where games are encouraged isn’t ‘good’, ‘high level’ or whatever, that kid in the bee costume obviously enjoyed his time I would assume and also was obviously a serious music student, based on results:). Games or other non music activities can have a lot of value to more then a few kids, which is great.</p>

<p>To me, though, there is another side to things. Without using this specific example (since I cannot speak about that case) my question would be what is the culture if a kid isn’t really into playing games? What if a kid during an off music period would rather practice, or would rather read a book or go for a walk? In my experience, there are places where they have this idea that doing X or Y is a ‘must’, that by forcing kids to do that they are creating ‘well roundedness’, that a kid who would rather concentrate more on the music, or maybe something else that they enjoy if they wish recreation, is somehow ‘abnormal’ or ‘lacking’ (and again, please, this is not about the example in this thread, or a criticism of any specific thing). My bugaboo, and I freely admit it, is when in situations like this someone is determining what is ‘normal’ or ‘best’, as if there is some universal on that. Whether it is the teacher who says it is igood for a gifted student to be forced to ‘keep pace’ with the rest of the kids (all too common) or someone, who I have had this said to me directly, who thinks a kid in early teen years who dedicates themselves to music is ‘lacking’ and ‘they can always get serious later’ (without obviously knowing much about anything, let alone music), it is forgetting that kids march to very different drums and recognizing the differences…</p>

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<p>I’ve been following this discussion with great interest, and feel that it is very important. I think everyone has made valid comments. Summer music programs will not fit everyone exactly and there will be some people for whom they will not fit at all. The problem is, how do you get accurate information in advance? With colleges, you visit before hand. Nobody visits summer programs. Fortunately in our case, I reached friendly administrators, and D was able to contact teachers, after being accepted. We saw the repertoire lists for the ensembles. We found out about chamber. We tried to find out as much as we could about the teachers and how long they had been with the program. The mysterious thing remained the actual level of playing. We found very few videos on program websites to demonstrate the level of playing, and usually it was the top ensemble only. There was almost nothing on Youtube. This is the one thing that you just never know until you get there, and it could change drastically from year to year, especially with the economy. </p>

<p>It is very difficult to decide to pay thousands of dollars when there is so much uncertainty. In our case (rising senior) valuable time was also at stake. In the end things worked out very well for D. But it sure was a lot easier and less stressful buying a car.</p>

<p>Maybe an Internet format such as “Tripadvisor” would be helpful for summer music programs. Any volunteers?</p>

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<p>While waiting for clrn8mom’s suggested “MusicCampadvisor” site, this forum does have many descriptions of many summer programs. I would particularly encourage clrn8mom and others to post information on their children’s 2010 experiences in the thread: </p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/956863-2010-summer-music-program-experiences.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/956863-2010-summer-music-program-experiences.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I agree with clrn8mom that it can be very difficult to figure out what one’s child is getting into. While faculty bios are usually readily accessible and can give you insight into the quality of instruction, the peer group level is often at least as important, especially at programs where considerable time is spent either in ensembles or masterclasses. It can be difficult to get reliable info about peer group level (and everyone’s idea of “wonderful playing” is different!).</p>

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<p>Hey violindad! I am a huge fan of your cataloguing efforts. Many thanks! Just don’t want to blow our cover. And you have no idea how hard it is to keep my mouth shut…</p>

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<p>Clrn8mom: You probably have me mixed up with violadad who is the ultimate organizer/cataloguer around here. I can relate to blowing cover and keeping mouth shut! I have deleted far too many half-written posts after realizing they gave away too much personal info. Violinists do have an advantage in anonymity–there are tons of them.</p>

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<p>I have two daughters. Both musicians/performers. One just graduated with a BFA degree and is working in her field. (YAY!) The younger is a performance major at a large university. I have been down this summer camp road a few times. My oldest attended an intensive program at the age of 14. It was a program that had every minute filled with music classes, performing, playing in chamber groups…ect. She was overwhelmed. My youngest started her summer music camp journey at this camp at the age of 12 and could have stayed for twice as long. My oldest child loved music, but loved spending time with friends chatting, watching tv…ect. Youngest child loved music and wanted her fun time to be spent with friend sitting next to her in orchestras, chambers…ect. My younger d, as I have said, spent the “best summer of my life” at Interlochen…in the HIGH SCHOOL division. The first few calls (yes, she had her cell phone) stated she loved it, but she was overwhelmed with the lack of practice time…but played all the time in chambers, orchestra or band. Private lessons…ect. Once again, HIGH SCHOOL DIVISION! I have heard from a couple of people that the intermediate is not what they were expecting. If my youngest went there at the age of 13 or 14, I have no doubt I would have heard about playing games! My oldest would have loved it. In the end, they are both incredible musicians…just different personalities.<br>
My point it to merely make sure you find out about the program. I am speaking from experience. We moved youngest into a PRE COLLEGE summer music camp at the age of 15. Major, well know school…audition based…ect. We chose to send her to that experience over three other big summer music programs. The flute studio there is one of the top…Two weeks later, we were moving her out because the program was not intense enough for her. She loved the flute end, but was diappointed about the rest of the music program. She came home for a week, NYSMF said they would love to have her and would still honor her acceptance to the IFI program and…SHE LOVED IT! I should have asked more questions, but I assumed at a Pre-college program she would be immersed in music and classes. Silly me…I did learn. The rest of her summers were spent at Interlochen and Tanglewood.<br>
Summer programs were a wonderful experience for my girls. Music experience as well as life experience. I believe these programs helped with their adjustment to college life tremenously!</p>

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<p>I really like the idea from CLRN8MOM regarding having a “Trip Advisor” for music camps. It would have been really useful to have been able to watch youtube videos of workshops and small ensemble performances of groups in various music camps, in order to be able to make a more informed decision about where to send our D to camp.</p>

<p>One problem I see is that some camps might not allow such recordings. For example, the Tanglewood instrument workshops each run a recital at the end of the workshop, which is recorded by Tanglewood and available for sale. I have not seen any links to these recordings online and it seems doubtful they would provide links if they want to sell the recordings. Also, we were advised we could not record the recital.</p>

<p>I agree with another poster that having a recording from the top ensemble alone is not enough.</p>

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<p>Now that I am past the point of ever paying for an expensive music summer camp experience again (woohoo) I’d like to say that I found this thread interesting, and full of stories that echoed our own experiences. A young musician who finds the perfect camp (which her parents can afford) is lucky indeed. </p>

<p>If I’m following woodwind’s story correctly - her daughter went off to Interlochen uninformed of the fact that her placement was not even slightly related to her playing level or audition cd. It seems to me that Interlochen, if it wants to maintain a reputation of being a place where music is taken seriously, should be interested in making sure a situation like that doesn’t happen - not even at the Intermediate level. This seems different from, say, being placed in Haydn string quartet groups when you know you’d love to be working on late Beethoven. Also different from being 2nd oboe in the 3-rd level orchestra because there are just too many fabulous oboes around this summer.</p>

<p>I would be pretty upset that it took a camp administrator 10 days (out of a 3 week program) to notice and respond to this. I’m also dubious of the claim that pointing out to other parents and students that Interlochen’s Intermediate Camp is not appropriate for serious middle schoolers who want more than 2 hours per day of practice+lesson time, or who want some flexibility about how they spend their non-band-rehearsal time represents such a grave danger to Interlochen’s overall reputation that they cannot abide it and must feel compelled to retaliate. It’s more likely that excellent woodwind teachers your daughter might meet there will sympathize with her desires and will recognize that this is not the right camp for her (at least, not as long as she’s in Intermedieates). I would not assume that administrators and faculty at a camp must see eye-to-eye on all issues. So if you **** off some administrator who did a shoddy job in responding, and in setting up the situation in the first place by not informing you of the placement realities - so what. </p>

<p>Your daughter will have plenty of opportunities to meet teachers and musicians during her next 4 years, and I expect she’ll be judged for her skills, musicianship and behaviour - not for her parents’ complaint about Interlochen’s summer program for middle-schoolers.</p>

<p>More information, even info gleaned from a disappointed family, is a good thing.</p>

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<p>memake-
I think people’s comments (including my own) were simply that it may not be wise to spread negative comments injudiciously i.e all over (which wasn’t WW’s idea, having read later posts). In terms of getting an administrator angry at someone, the problem is that it could backfire down the road, depending on who the person is and what the program is, that is all, so it pays to be cautious. </p>

<p>The overall problem IMO is what we learn about camps is subjective, there is no objective measure of what makes for a good festival experience. I have known students who went to camps reputed to be ‘busters’, ‘overload’, too intense, and found them either satisfactory for them or actually too easy. I have heard some programs get glowing reviews from kids and parents, and when someone I know personally went there, they were in shock about how poor it seemed to them. It is like the problem with reviews in general, you are seeing a review without context, without knowing, for example, that the student who said program X was too easy was also someone who was really advanced. </p>

<p>I think the best way to look at it was a novelty song from the 60’s, by Allen Sherman, about a kid’s letter at Summer Camp called, I believe ‘Hello Muddah, Hello faddah’, where the kid is describing a litany of woes, how it is raining, getting bitten by mosquitoes, the food is lousy, etc…and at the end of the song, the sun is shining, kids are swimming, etc, and the last line is 'Dahling muddah, dahling faddah,kindly disregard this lettah"</p>