International Academy-Bloomfield Hills #2 High School in the Nation

<p>“more about the ethics of selecting a specialized school that cherrypicks its applicants as a top ‘public’ high school”</p>

<p>Oh, and what about ethics?
If it is ethical to pick out mentally ■■■■■■■■ kids and use public funding to put them in special education schools because they cant keep up with the rest of the kids, it is completely ethical to go to the other side of the spectrum and use public funding for gifted kids because the rest of the kids slow them down.</p>

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<p>once again, what do pass rates have to do with recognition?!</p>

<p>bearcats: Your ethical scenario is as offensive as it is unintelligent. </p>

<p>And your knowledge of the IB math curriculum is also nonexistent: At IA this year there are two sophomore taking HL math (that goes through linear algebra) and they will be dual-enrolling at a nearby University after that. </p>

<p>And your comment about multiple Ivy acceptances is certainly as charming as it is arrogant. To be honest, I could give a ****. Do you honestly think that the top students at IA don’t have multiple Ivy acceptances?</p>

<p>And what do pass rates have to do with recognition? Our administrators present at international conferences (last year in Singapore) about how the IA teaches the IB curriculum and what other schools can do to improve their pass rates. Further, many of our teachers are IB graders (meaning that they help to both moderate test scores and design the curriculum) and our former principal spoke with a member of congress about ways to expand the IB program in the United States. So yeah, pass rates correlate with recognition.</p>

<p>Oh and the difference between the IA math class and the Hotchkiss math class? $40,200 per year.</p>

<p>“And your comment about multiple Ivy acceptances is certainly as charming as it is arrogant. To be honest, I could give a ****. Do you honestly think that the top students at IA don’t have multiple Ivy acceptances?”</p>

<p>Find me someone at IA not in the top 40% of class with multiple ivy acceptances without connections, because there were plenty at my REAL top high school. The same is true I know at the REAL top publics like Thomas Jefferson and Sty.</p>

<p>"bearcats: Your ethical scenario is as offensive as it is unintelligent. "
Sorry that you are buying into the stupid PC bullcrap. I like to analyze things with logic. If something applies to one side of the spectrum, it’s only fair that it applies to the other side too.</p>

<p>“At IA this year there are two sophomore taking HL math (that goes through linear algebra) and they will be dual-enrolling at a nearby University after that.”
Why are they dual enrolling at a nearby university? Is it because of the fact that their ordinary high school does not offer anything beyond? I am sorry to hear that. He should have gone to Hotchkiss or Sty or Thomas Jefferson then. They have professors-class faculty members who can teach anything within 4-year college level (I know someone from Thomas Jefferson working on Markov Chain **AT THOMAS JEFFERSON<a href=“not%20at%20other%20local%20universities%20because%20of%20the%20lack%20of%20curriculum%20depth”>/B</a> by the time he was a senior.</p>

<p>"Oh and the difference between the IA math class and the Hotchkiss math class? $40,200 per year. "
I thought we are talking about public school, let’s compare with sty and thomas jefferson then. Hotchkiss was just example I used to show how little the list of things you listed actually mean</p>

<p>I am surprised you failed to address the only objective measure between all three public schools, the average SAT scores… oh is it because DIRECTLY COMPARABLE OBJECTIVE STATISTICAL MEASURE shows that the IA student body as a whole is significantly inferior and it’s hard to argue with STATISTICS, as numbers do not lie?? Want me to repeat them for you?</p>

<p>Average SATs
For 2009,
Thomas Jefferson SATs
725 verbal, 745 math (1470 total)
Sty average SATs
685 verbal, 723 math (1408 total)
IA average SATs
629 Verbal, 668 math (1297 total)</p>

<p>There, for those who try to portray Sty and Thomas Jefferson’s curriculum as unbalanced, apparently not only are the kids better at math on average, they are also better at reading than kids at lesser “balanced” schools like IA, evident by the higher verbal scores.</p>

<p>“the stupid PC bullcrap”
As a person whose family member is mentally challenge, I am personally offended by that comment, not indirectly “offended by your language.” But I really shouldn’t expect any better from you. </p>

<p>And both Stuyvesant and Thomas Jefferson are magnets. So why wouldn’t schools that are allowed to skim off the very top applicants have average higher SAT scores? IA not a magnet, and is based on a lottery. And while there is an alegbra test, over 90% of applicants pass it on their first try and those who don’t can receive free tutoring and test again twice. </p>

<p>What makes IA excellent is that it takes normal students who are interested in gaining an excellent education and it transforms them into students capable of passing the IB tests at a high rate and earning advanced credit.</p>

<p>I’ll admit one thing: Stuyvesant and Thomas Jefferson are extremely impressive schools that deserve to be on top of the USNews list. I agree that the curriculum they offer is impressive, and that their students are extremely intelligent.</p>

<p>That does not, however, mean that the IA is not one of the nation’s best public high schools, and I think that the honor of being a top high school is made all the more real by not cherrypicking only the top 30% of applicants.</p>

<p>as much as i think stuy is a crappy school of gunners, he has a point. they enroll better students.</p>

<p>“As a person whose family member is mentally challenge, I am personally offended by that comment, not indirectly “offended by your language.” But I really shouldn’t expect any better from you.”</p>

<p>I feel for you. But this is my rationale.
The mentally challenged (as you like to put it) makes the argument that society does not offer them the equal opportunity to succeed to the fullest extent of their potential, due to the fact that they learn slower than the typical kids.
Similarly, the gifted ones should be able to make the a similar argument that the society does not offer them the equal environment to succeed to the fullest extent of their potential, due to the fact that they are slowed down by the typical kids.</p>

<p>This is similar to one of the debate we had in an ergonomics (puke) class…</p>

<p>The debate was if we should only take into account the very short person when designing something, or should we take both the very short and very tall people into account.</p>

<p>Let’s say if you are designing a button, you know that if you put it too high, the short person would not be able to reach it and press it.
If you put it too low, the short person would have no problem, and the very tall person could still press it, he would simply have to bend down.</p>

<p>So you might say, hey that’s a perfect solution, we accomodated the very short person and everyone can press it.
But what you fail to see is, it is unfair to the tall person because he has to bend down every time to press the button, while the others do not. They are not given the same opportunity to easy access of the button.</p>

<p>So the only way to accommodate both the very short and the very tall person is to have a button at a low position, and a button at a high position. </p>

<p>Similarly, the only way to be fair for both side of the spectrum is to have special schools for both sides.</p>

<p>Well, since you love direct comparison, here we go (you’ll forgive me for stalking you to make my point):</p>

<p>YOU:
Grades
10th grade
AP Calculus AB : A-
Honors Physics(took AP got 5) :: A-
Advanced number theory: A-
Spanish I : C+
10th Grade English: C+</p>

<p>Me:
10th Grade
AP Calculus: A, got a 5 on the exam
Honors Physics: A
Honors Spanish III: A
Honors Chemistry: A
Honors History: A
Honors English: A</p>

<p>YOU:
11th Grade
Multivariable Calculus: B+
Linear Algebra: A-
Honors Chem (took AP got 5) : B+
Spanish 2: A-
US History: B+
AP English Lit: B-</p>

<p>Me:
Dual Enrollment for Math: 4.0, departmental award at local uni
IB Chem: A (scored a 7 on practice IB final)
IB Spanish: A (scored a 6 on practice IB final)
IB History: A
IB Biology: A
IB Physics: A
IB English: A</p>

<p>YOU:
12th Grade first quarter projected (i can get it before deadline)
AP Physics C: A
AP Economics: A-
AP Stats: A (only math course i can take)
AP Spanish: A-
Senior English Elective: B-</p>

<p>Me:
12th Grade Courses
IB Math (required for diploma): A
IB Chem: A (scored a 7 on practice IB final)
IB Spanish: A (scored a 6 on practice IB final)
IB History: A
IB Biology: A
IB Physics: A
IB English: A</p>

<p>YOU:
SAT: 1500
Me: ACT 34 (roughly equivalent to 1490-1530)</p>

<p>YOU:
ECs:
Math Team Captain
Math Club Cohead
President of Mu Alpha Theta (math honors society) Hotchkiss Chapter
Webmaster of OISCA (An NGO in consulative status with United Nations)
Founder of peer to peer math help program
Physics lower class tutor
Computer Tech Assistant of IT
Chair of 2nd violin of Orchestra</p>

<p>AMC/AIME scores : AMC 120 AIME: 9/15
combined index: 210 (cut off for math olympiad :217)</p>

<p>Me:
President of Model UN
President of Spanish Honors Society
Michigan Math Price Competition Qualifier
Physics, Chem, and Bio tutor
Principal Horn - Metropolitan Youth Symphony
Attended TASP
Event Leader, Science Olympiad
Student Gov. member</p>

<p>You: National Merit Scholar
Me: National Merit Scholar</p>

<p>Are we really that different? Granted, your level of math is higher than mine. But I’ve taken a lot more science than you have.</p>

<p>My point?
You: Hotchkiss
Me: IA</p>

<p>Are you really going to argue that IA is not one of the top high schools in the nation?</p>

<p>I am actually thinking the direct comparison shows exactly why hotchkiss is more highly regarded. I could get much crappier grades and still get into multiple ivies including wharton, because colleges recognize the fact that Hotchkiss has very top kids and grading is very tough. Imagine I get those grades at IA, do you think I would get into even Michigan?</p>

<p>You also have nothing comparible to this
“AMC/AIME scores : AMC 120 AIME: 9/15
combined index: 210 (cut off for math olympiad :217)”</p>

<p>I was 7 points (less than 1 AIME quesiton) away from qualifying for USAMO. More than 1 million self-selective pool of students start off at AMC10 or AMC12, 1-5% qualify for USAMO, then only 250 in total qualify for USAMO (I did this in 2006 before the quota raise), and my combined index put me at top 300, and I wasnt even the top math kid at Hotchkiss. 2 kids qualified for the USAMO my year.</p>

<p>We just had someone accepted with a 3.2 a few weeks ago with no alumni connections. So it’s happened. </p>

<p>But does Hotchkiss deviate so much from the AP Curriculum that those grades are standard? Or does Hotchkiss just avoid grade inflation?</p>

<p>And I wouldn’t disagree that colleges recognize Hotchkiss as having very tough grading with very top kids. I’m simply exploring the fact that the majority of the classes you took at Hotchkiss were APs, comparable if not inferior to the IB curriculum in many ways. Now, if Hotchkiss greatly enriches these classes with all kinds of superfluous material and covers them in a semester I would admit defeat, but it seems as though, despite practices of harsh grading, Hotchkiss is still covering the AP curriculum.</p>

<p>"We just had someone accepted with a 3.2 a few weeks ago with no alumni connections. So it’s happened. "
But my point is, that is not the norm. </p>

<p>Hotchkiss’s AP econ class covers both Macro and Micro in one course (while almost every other school that offers AP cover them in 2 courses). The AP Physics C class covers both mechanics and E&M within one course (same thing).
Most other AP classes basically cover the AP curriculum for the first half of the course and go beyond the AP level for the next half. For instance, the AP calc AB class (which is supposedly the easier one) was doing multivariable calculus towards the end of the school year.</p>

<p>Also, a lot of schools that offer AP cover the same curriculum and help their students acheive a passing grade (3 or 4 depending on how easy/hard the school is), and the top kids go above and beyond and get perfect scores. As most people are aware (and I am sure the same applies to IB too), you dont need to know everything in full depth to simply get a satisfactory score on the test.</p>

<p>Hotchkiss teachers basically cover much more in depth so everyone gets a 5. Some of the exams by the end of the semester was basically a past AP test. Let’s say the threshold for a 5 is a 60%, the passing grade (C) for the exam would be 60%. To get an A, you need to score 90% on that test, which is 30% into the 5 range.
90% of the kids who take an AP test gets a 5. That is another factor that makes the classes hard.</p>

<p>One thing, if you havn’t noticed, I took **Honors Chem (not AP, just honors), got a B+ in the class, took the AP test without much more preparation, and got a 5 on the AP chem test. ** Did the same thing with Honors Physics and took AP Physics B, and got 5 too. That should speak to the difficulty and depth of the curriculum.</p>

<p>IA does not cover anything outside of the IB curriculum, but the IB curriculum is generally more in depth than the AP curriculum.</p>

<p>That being said, junior level IB physics covers mechanics and E&M in one semester. I haven’t taken our econ class so there is no direct comparison. </p>

<p>Other classes:
Junior level Chem covers kinetics, thermal chem, and equilibrium in one semester, followed by electrochem, acid/base chem, and a unit on industrial chem.
Senior level chem is basically a year of college orgo, covering intro to orgo and major mechanisms in a semester. I don’t know how that compares to Hotchkiss, but it is certainly faster, more comprehensive, and more in-depth than the AP chem curriculum.</p>

<p>Spanish requires reading/writing/speaking of all spanish tenses by the end of sophomore year, and junior and senior year focus on fluency and perfecting reading/writing/speaking skills to the point of fluency.</p>

<p>“Senior level chem is basically a year of college orgo, covering intro to orgo and major mechanisms in a semester. I don’t know how that compares to Hotchkiss, but it is certainly faster, more comprehensive, and more in-depth than the AP chem curriculum”</p>

<p>As I said, if getting a B+ in Honors Chem equate to a 5 on the AP Chem exam, imagine what the AP Chem class covers.</p>

<p>“I’m simply exploring the fact that the majority of the classes you took at Hotchkiss were APs, comparable if not inferior to the IB curriculum in many ways.”</p>

<p>If you want answer to this question, the thing that makes Hotchkiss hard is not the fact that they teach AP, is the fact that they teach beyond AP. The honors class WAS the AP class. I took honors classes, got B+/A-s and proceeded to get 5s on the AP exams.
The AP classes basically assume that you know everything on the AP exam from honors classes, which are typically prereqs. Teachers start off going over/reviewing the AP test stuff at a really fast pace, then move onto college second-year stuff.</p>

<p>Another example, after 2nd year spanish, I took the AP test, got a 5. Was perfectly fine homestaying in Barcelona that summer only speaking spanish. Then I took the actual AP spanish class, and still couldnt get an A, despite getting a 5 on the test the previous year.</p>

<p>So these are the topics for the AP Chem exam:</p>

<p>Percentage composition
Empirical and molecular formulas from experimental data
Molar masses from gas density, freezing-point, and boiling-point measurements
Gas laws, including the ideal gas law, Dalton’s law, and Graham’s law
Stoichiometric relations using the concept of the mole; titration calculations
Mole fractions; molar and molal solutions
Faraday’s law of electrolysis
Equilibrium constants and their applications, including their use for simultaneous equilibria
Standard electrode potentials and their use; Nernst equation
Thermodynamic and thermochemical calculations
Kinetics calculations</p>

<p>We cover all but therm equilibria, and kinetics in Sophomore Honors chem at IA, which is compulsory.</p>

<p>"We cover all but therm equilibria, and kinetics in Sophomore Honors chem at IA, which is compulsory. "</p>

<p>Covering the topic does not mean going into the same depth as required by the test.</p>

<p>An example:
third grade math covers multiplication.</p>

<p>But what multiplication? Does third grade math cover matrix multiplication? Because matrix multiplication is ALSO part of the multiplication family.
Similarly, my honors chem teacher went into organic chemistry when he was done with everything and got bored. Does that mean I learned everything about orgo? </p>

<p>Hope you get my point</p>

<p>Er, what is the point of all this comparison? I’m sure students from both schools are great.</p>

<p>Personally, I graduated from Stuyvesant HS (why do people keep calling it Sty? When I attended, it was always Stuy - maybe that has changed, though).</p>

<p>First of all, I don’t think AP tests/SATs/etc are really indicative of much - they are jokes. I must have studied for a total of 3 days for those. </p>

<p>Honestly, only the top 5-10% are “special,” whatever that really means. The rest of the students are ordinary. Ordinary, as in they have the same potential as anyone else with a pretty decent education (unless I’m just extremely spoiled, which I doubt). In fact, I often found myself wondering how some of my classmates were accepted into such an (supposedly) elite HS.</p>

<p>The teachers are ok. I have only had a handful of really great ones (the best one being my AP English teacher); the rest just go through the material. Surprisingly, my mathematics teachers affected my education the least - maybe I was unlucky.</p>

<p>Stuyvesant’s curriculum is actually ******* easy compared to Michigan Engineering. <em>Definitely</em> not college level (and I have taken ~8 AP classes - they’re actually mostly the same as normal classes).</p>

<p>Overall, I think my HS education was fine, but nothing extra special. I learned most of the material by myself (from reading the textbooks).</p>

<p>I think all of this fuss is pretty silly though; if you go to a school with a good curriculum, most of your academic future will probably depend on you.</p>

<p>(Also, no one really cares that I went to Stuyvesant, in my experience - there are far more interesting things to talk about)</p>

<p>We could forever split hairs, but I overall it seems that Hotchkiss is not leaps and bounds ahead of the IA curriculum-wise but rather that AP classes at the Junior and Senior level exceed the AP curriculum and go more into depth. IA is an IB school, though, and IB classes exceed the AP curriculum as well, especially senior year. </p>

<p>One big difference is that Hotchkiss is private, meaning amazing alumni connections, amazing tech resources, and the best of the best when it comes to profs, class sizes, etc. That’s a fair statement (though IA attracts an amazing faculty that is definitely underpaid for their experience–one of our science teachers has a PhD in his field and years of industry experience).</p>

<p>So it’s a question of paying for Hotchkiss and get major alumni connections and physical resources. My family could never afford Hotchkiss, nor would I uproot myself for boarding school. So IA has been an amazing option for me, and it does deserve a ranking as one of the top high schools in the nation, especially when it can be compared with Hotchkiss.</p>

<p>And it’s not as if I’m graduating without college options or Ivy possibilities (cost is a barrier for me). So, rather than balking at IA’s ranking, people on this thread should consider what makes the IA a wonderful high school.</p>

<p>“We could forever split hairs, but I overall it seems that Hotchkiss is not leaps and bounds ahead of the IA curriculum-wise but rather that AP classes at the Junior and Senior level exceed the AP curriculum and go more into depth. IA is an IB school, though, and IB classes exceed the AP curriculum as well, especially senior year.”</p>

<p>There is something more than depth, for example, the expectation to know every single aspect of the material as opposed to just enough to pass, and the fact that you are competing against the smartest high school kids in America and in the world. </p>

<p>Everything is curved, so for example, in my linear algebra class, I was competing against 2 mathematics olympians. I could be extremely good at the material and still get a B+ just because I cant beat those two kids, but how many kids in America can?</p>

<p>There is a reason while most kids at almost any high schools see their GPA drop by half a gradepoint when they get into college, kids at elite boarding schools typically have a better college GPA than their high school GPA. For example, I worked harder in high school, somehow I had a 3.3 at Hotchkiss and 3.7 in Michigan Engineering. </p>

<p>anyway, I didnt mean for this thread to turn to the ugly thread that it has turned out.</p>

<p>My point is, I am a result oriented person. I could care less about the process in between. At the end of the day, I judge a school by objective statistics they have to show, which is the overall graduating class quality, average SAT score and their college matriculation profile. And in that regards, I felt that stuyvesant, bronx science, thomas jefferson and the like have more to show than IA, and therefore more deserving to be on the list.
Obviously you can view it differently, and no one is right or wrong because what you use to judge is subjective, but this is how my judging criteria are.</p>

<p>smart.cookie, my high school commonly recruited college teachers to come back and teach for us. </p>

<p>And btw, we’re ~50 on that list, and the average SAT from us? 1269 (612 Verbal and 657 Math). </p>

<p>Your graduation means nothing to me, our school itself had >97 percent going to four year colleges. We’re a public school. Everyone in the area is accepted, no skimming or anything like that. But I wouldn’t put us close to the Manhattan publics.</p>