<p>
[quote]
85% respondents only took IB and those respondents received the following credits;
0 - 27.7%
4-10 -23.4%
11-15 - 9.6%
16-20 - 5.3%
21-25 - 7.4%
26 + - 11.7%</p>
<p>The max credits were 45 credits with several getting 35 and 36.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>These stats seem a bit misleading. The data would be more useful if there was more data on whether these were highly selective, or less selective schools. To be honest I didn't spend four years doing the IB to get credit from my local cc. So if you are really trying to highlight the value of IB a more specific breakdown would be very helpful.</p>
<p>
[quote]
However, I would be very hestitant if not completely opposed to recognizing anonymous unvetted responses from an Internet message board as valid data for a thesis.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It seems that you are perfectly willing to cite biased IB info such as the one sided articles contained in the link you posted. </p>
<p>BTW, RTLAvalley, I would be happy to scan and email my IB diploma which includes my scores so that I would not be considered "unvetted".</p>
<p>
[quote]
Observer, didn't you bid farewell to this thread?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>HAHAHA.... I didn't want to be the one to mention it. Sort of stalkerish eh?</p>
<p>LOL! Hey there girl! How goes it for tall child? Good year? Did you see my new site? I posted the pic you took of Jay Mathews and I. (I cropped it so you only see my lovely manicure but the dueling pens are quite effective) ;-)</p>
<p>Yo, NY! I'll PM you! And I missed the picture; will have to go take a look. I need to stop by to see Jay one of these days; I'd like to have our local schools (read: my district) post AP exam results by subject/grade, as is done in some districts around here. Jay has written about this in the past; I hope he will write about this again and push to get such results released.</p>
<p>The problem with stats showing credits received is that each college is different. But I can speak for my kids. Daughter graduated IB program; didn't score high enough to get the diploma; but received 12 credits. My son graduated 4.0 in the IB program and he DID receive the IB diploma; but the college he is attending doesn't offer any credits for ANYTHING in high school. They allowed him and similar students who did AP to take placement tests so they didn't have to start with basic pre-requisite classes. His girlfriend however, who goes to state university and also graduated with a 4.0 gpa in the IB program, had her entire freshman year waivered. They gave her 30 credit. Again; each school is different.</p>
<p>One thing that every single IB graduate I've known personally (24 of them) have said, was that because the IB program was a "PROGRAM"; it helped their study habits, note taking, time management, stress, and pressure. They notice this almost immediately when their college classmates are starting off doing 2-3 hours a night of studying and homework; and they are usually done in half the time. They go looking for people to hang out with and most of them cant because of homework/studying. I don't know of one of those kids who isn't holding at least a 3.5 gpa in college. Anyway, that's the experience I have through my kids and their classmates in the IB program. </p>
<p>As for the truth about IB website linked in the beginning of this thread; it definitely seems to be a site that was probably started by students or parents of students who tried the IB program and couldn't hack it. And the more of these people who get together, the more they rationalize that it can't be them/kids that's the problem; it must be the IB program. The program is definitely not for everyone. And many will drop out of it before completion. But I don't know of 1 student who ever finished the IB program and wasn't better for it. Or in any way worse off.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
As for the truth about IB website linked in the beginning of this thread; it definitely seems to be a site that was probably started by students or parents of students who tried the IB program and couldn't hack it.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>Why are IB supporters always so full of themselves, arrogant and self-righteous? </p>
<p>No afadad, the site was started by 2 teachers, a doctor, a statistician, an engineer and a journalist, all of whom had their children deliberately avoid IB classes in favor of AP, all of whom experienced controversy and divisiveness in their communities because of IB. Btw, my own daughter is a merit scholar sophomore at NYU with a 3.85 GPA. Another student from our HS is also at NYU in the same major, (these two have been in many of each others classes since Kindergarten) and was an IB Diploma student. Nice kid, smart kid, but he is having a lot harder time and not doing quite as well as my daughter. So there goes your theory. Care to try again?</p>
<p>
[quote]
The max credits was 45 credits (IB only) and 70 of the respondents were college graduates going to schools such as Harvard, Yale, MIT, Stanford, Uof Chicago, Duke, UVa, Uof FL, U of OR, U of W and a myriad of other schools.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Sorry Rwlavalley, I didn't see this earlier.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Why are IB supporters always so full of themselves, arrogant and self-righteous?
<p>My son in a National AP Scholar and a candidate for a full IB Diploma. His opinion is that IB courses demand more of students in terms of reasoning and analysis, but about the same level of data knowledge. Looking at the schools he has applied to, in most cases it is easier to get credit for AP than IB (but in his case it won't matter, as nearly all of them cap credits from any source well below what he has).</p>
<p>When I read ObserverNY's posts, I am bothered by the leap from: This program isn't ideal for my child, to: This program should be eliminated nationwide. I think we all know that no single program or approach is right for every child and that in an ideal (budgetless!) world, all programs would be available in every school system.</p>
<p>ObserverNY: After reading this entire thread, I still cannot understand why you hate the IB so much, exactly. I am about to finish the IB programme. It is not a cult; it is not anti-American. You are saying that the IB does not adequately prepare students for college because of one student that your daughter knows, while many other people have attested that it has, in fact, prepared them well for college. </p>
<p>Your objections about the reading list is absurd. The IB has guidelines on what books may be chosen, but teachers have full discretion as to the books that are actually read in class, especially in English. This is also true for textbooks. A professor teaching HoA may use any textbook he chooses. The IB has nothing to do with they. They do not care, so long as you cover the curriculum. </p>
<p>Your objections about TOK are also patently ridiculous. TOK teaches a student to question how things are known; how do we decide what is art, can science really be accurate? There is a section about religion and ethics, and that comes from many perspectives, including the Christian perspective, if that is what worries you.</p>
<p>I could go on, addressing the concerns on your site, but it seems clear to me that you do not actually know what the IB is really about.</p>
<p>ObserverNY
I have posted the same set of questions for AP on a forum but have not gotten more than a couple responses. I have not found any source of AP students in the various social networking sites to get a list of AP alumni like I have for IB.</p>
<p>As far as your other questions, the quesiton was asked if the respondent felt IB helped prepare them for college - that is what they responded 98.7% as Yes.</p>
<p>As far as the Workload number, that is the % of people who stated specifically mentioned that the workload in college was easy or easier than IB in high school. I did not ask the question but they volunteered the answer consistently.</p>
<p>I have received 94 responses so far. 87 have Diplomas, 5 have certificates and 2 moved before they received either but felt they benefited from IB. You certainly are able to calculate the numbers if you wish. I am not interested in getting the total for their IB diploma as I am not sure what relevance it had to my questions. A person with 3 points or 42 points had an experience in IB. I wanted to get the opinions of those who went through the program and not those who had not gone through it and have a positive or negitive opinion. You obviously have an opinion, everyone has one. I did not believe you would be interested in what I found if it did not support your opinion.</p>
<p>There is no way I have to "vet" or check on peoples answers. I fhave to trust their answers and caveate the results to others who read the research on how the results were gathered. Other than the responses on this site, emails were sent out to IB Alumni gathered off of Social Networking sites and they responded. I have the % who responded and it is statistically valid.</p>
<p>I believe AP and IB are both excellent advanced academic opportunities for our high school students. And I believe the Cambridge AICE appears a good program as well....although it started overseas so I am sure it is probably not high on your hit list as well. </p>
<p>Those that argue one or the other are doing a disservice to our youth. The arguement reminds me of those beer commercials a few years back - Less Filling or Good Tasting. IB and AP offer curriculum differently. </p>
<p>If you only have IB in your high school, students should take it because that is what is expected by college admission folks. If you only have AP, students should take it because that is what is expected by college admission folks. If the school has both AP and IB, then students should determine what is best for them. Neither is easy, they are different.</p>
<p>I want to report what they said and not spin it in a positive or negative way.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think we all know that no single program or approach is right for every child
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree, while the IB was a good fit for me my parents are trying to figure out whether it is a fit for my younger sister. Our base school is a Newsweek top 25 but only offers AP which may be a better fit for my sister so that she can focus on her strongest areas. Math is tough for her and the AP may provide better flexibility. OTOH the IB assures a full schedule of pre-ib (aka honors) which is not a sure thing in the AP school. You have to fight to get them and you don't always get the AP's you would like to have especially in your junior year which can be limiting. </p>
<p>We are lucky to be able to select between the two programs.</p>
<p>My intent of this thread was to gather experience of IB students in preparing themselves for college through IB. I have read many studies about IB and have looked at many studies but I did not find anything that specifically addressed college preparedness. I attempted to gather the results via various methods. Finding IB Alumni is not easy. I did not go through IB Coordinators because I did not want "cherry picking" by coordinators to bias the results. I attempted in this forum to gather information but it was sidetracked and very little was gathered. I went to social networking sites and found various groups which had IB Alumni listed. I sent emails to a sample of those listed and I received responses. I talled the results.</p>
<p>Parents with no experience with IB (or for that matter AP) and want the best for their students do not need marketing of a program. They know their children best. I hoped to provide them with a study they can use to help in the decision process. I know mywife and I went through a similiar process back 15 years ago. I spent an enormous amount of time researching various advanced academic program choices. We decided to send our son to one and my daughter to the other because of their capabilities and desires. They were part of the process and ultimately made the choice. They had to have ownership in the decision to be effective.</p>
<p>I would like to also add that I have had children in both AP and IB. They are both excellent opportunities for our children but they are different. My wife and I are involved in our children's education. I have 2 finished with college and 3 more in high school and middle school.</p>
<p>My reasons for my opposition to the IB program are many but I will try and list them for you in a concise collection:</p>
<ol>
<li>Cost - in these tough economic times, there is absolutely no reason for any public school district to spend millions on a program sold by a foreign "non-profit"</li>
<li>Lack of transparency - IBO requires a district to purchase the course guides/curriculum from its IB Store - not so for AP, all are online for free</li>
<li>Misrepresentation by IBO as to the "value" of IB in terms of college credits and scholarships</li>
<li>IBO is an NGO of the UN and has agreed to incorporate UN educational initiatives into every aspect of its curriculum.</li>
</ol>
<p>Now, if you believe that the UN isn't anti-American and that we should raise children to be "global citizens" instead of American citizens, then I can never convince you that whatever good components there may be to the program (more intensive writing), they are completely wiped out by the socialist globalist agenda of IBO. I found $650,000,000 in our disaster of a spending bill appropriated for an educational Innovation Fund to be used on programs between "non-profits and Consortiums of schools". Hmmmm, now what does that sound like?</p>
<p>2 part answer: To the original poster. As I mentioned; both my kids, as well as the other IB students I have spoken with over the last 7-8 years, have all said that their adjustment to college was very smooth. All of them attribute this "Additional Edge" to the IB program. They are comparing it with the other students in their college classes. Some of whom were high school class mates. Many of their 1st-2nd semester classes were actually refreshers of classes they took in IB/High School. This is the student's opinion, not mine. I personally think that the overall education system in our country today is so much worse than it was 30 years ago. I think programs for advanced kids; such as IB and AP classes; which we consider "SPECIAL or ADVANCED" today, was somewhat of the NORMAL education standards when I was growing up. I remember teachers teaching to a Standard that the students had to rise to. Today; it seems more like the teachers teach to the common denominator of the class. It definitely dumbs down our students. And yes, I put a LOT of the blame on the NEA and the likes. I'm glad that the IB program was available for my children. There is no way in the world my son and daughter would have done so well in school without the challenge of college level classes and being in a classroom where all the students wanted to learn. My son FINISHED the IB program from 9th-12th grade with a perfect 4.0 gpa; he received the IB Diploma; he was accepted to all 6 colleges/universities he applied to; 4 of the 6 offered between 50% and 100% scholarships (Including room and board). He also had time to be a 2 sport varsity All State athlete. Yes, IB is/was worth it. At least for both my kids. I know how bored they were before starting IB. That boredom would have lead to lower grades and a bad attitude.</p>
<p>Observer; I really don't understand your problem. I don't find the cost a problem. I don't think there's any problem with transparency. Anything I wanted to know about the IB program in our school was open. Including tests and materials. There is/was absolutely no misrepresentation of college credit and scholarships. That is up to the individual colleges/universities. You can go online to just about any school and see what they offer for college credit via an IB class and/or diploma. And the whole UN conspiracy theory of yours concerns me. I consider myself probably one of the most conservative; republican; anti-liberals; pro Reagan was one of the greatest presidents ever; anti-NEA; less government involvement in our lives; Christian that I know. I argue more with people about politics and religion than anything. Yet your comments and conspiracy theories seem so far out there that I have no rebuttal. If that's what you believe; then have at it. I'm not full of myself. Our school started the IB program 1 year prior to my daughter getting into 9th grade where you could enroll in the pre-IB program. Many teachers were like you and spoke terrible and ill of the program. These were complacent teachers with only their own interests at heart. Well, the program went ahead anyway with the necessary amount of teachers willing to enroll in the certification process. Well; it's 8 years later. The program is successful. Another high school in our city is trying to get the program. Many more teachers are trying to get certified in the program. (Including some who were originally against it). Our children are coming out educated, free thinking, self confident, considerate of others, and prepared for college. We have IB graduates at State University; Yale; Cornell; 2 different military academies; religious universities like BYU; and many others, including studying overseas. So believe what you want. The IB program is a very good program. it's definitely not for everyone. It should be advertised more for students who naturally do exceptionally well in school. It's not for the "Average" student. Those who graduate are usually better prepared for future educational endeavors. Many schools give college credit. Some don't. And while AP classes have their place, it isn't the same as IB. One is classes and the other is an entire educational program. I think at the public school level, the IB program is a great augment to the traditional system that has a difficult time teaching kids to read. It's the next best thing to a private education. And if tax dollars can be used to help educate mentally handicapped children in our communities, then most definitely money can be used for the academically advanced students. Or for the parents/students who want a more challenging educational environment; where all the students in the class WANT to be there and WANT to learn. What a concept.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
And the whole UN conspiracy theory of yours concerns me. I consider myself probably one of the most conservative; republican; anti-liberals; pro Reagan was one of the greatest presidents ever; anti-NEA; less government involvement in our lives; Christian that I know.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>Excellent. You and I would most likely get along very well as I share all of your beliefs. Therefore, you need to believe me when I tell you that I have NOT formed my opinion of IB based on a conspiracy theory, but based on documented fact. The document below is in effect through 2010. The signer of the document is Deputy Director General Ian Hill. Ian Hill is Jay Mathews' co-author of the book Supertest. These are facts, I don't care how many times IBO denies its affiliation with the UN.</p>
<p>Observer-- We are all "global citizens". Most of us on this board are also American citizens. These are not mutally exclusive. Your belief that the UN is "anti american" is profoundly misguided. Of course, the UN is not "pro american" either, it is pro world. Meaning that it is made up of combined interests of ALL member countries. Including the US. Also including countries with which we disagree in nearly every imaginable way. And, all the countries on the spectrum inbetween. By definition, it's positions cannot be exactly ours, or exactly any other country's. </p>
<p>I think you have very clearly stated your beliefs. I disagree with them on just about every level. From your belief that the UN is "anti american" to your belief that only "pro american" purist curriculums be taught, to your belief that you should control what is available to students far from you local district.</p>
<p>In closing, I also believe that you would be better served to open a thread discussing your beliefs rather than repeatedly taking this one off subject. In keeping with that view, I do not intend to engage you further on this thread and hope that others will do the same.
The original poster has the right to gather the information he/she seeks withough having to wade through your arguments on a different subject.</p>
<p>I have read the IBO report back to UNESCO that you cited and I had read it before. UNESCO sent out many requests of different organizations regarding its Culture of Peace initiative. This appears to be IBO's response to that request. Because they have similiar beliefs does not make them a NGO or puppet of UNESCO. Perhaps most of the Christian faiths of the world would fall into that category since Jesus said "Peace be with you" which is definitely promoting a culture of peace.</p>
<p>Frankly, I see nothing wrong with wanting a culture of peace in the world. Perhaps you benefit from the war effort and are opposed to peace but I would rather my children live in a world which can sustain peace and not fear dying from war. I am sure you will brand me a liberal commie for my beliefs but your tactics remind of the 1950s and a senator from Wisconsin.</p>