<p>ObserverNY</p>
<p>I am really tired of you taking this thread off the subject and intent. Please start another thread and find others of your opinion to commissurate.</p>
<p>I do not seek "commiseration", Sir. I seek to educate people like you and afadad who refuse to accept facts in black and white. Whatever "other organizations" UNESCO may have asked to partner in its educational ideology, they were all </p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
addressed to NGOs maintaining official relations with UNESCO:
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>"Maintaining official relations with UNESCO". Does the College Board maintain official relations with UNESCO? No? I didn't think so. </p>
<p>I only came back because I was addressed by afdad. I have the right to defend myself against being called a conspiracy theorist and to provide documentation to back it up. I avoided responding to the many emotional and relativistic perceptions he addressed in his post. I wanted to stick to the facts. IB doesn't like facts. Facts are bad. It appeared as though you had concluded your gathering of responses. I didn't know you "owned" this bandwidth, forgive me for trespassing with the truth.</p>
<p>I wanted to gather facts from people who have gone through IB...not people like yourself who have an opinion based on no experience with IB directly. Your posts have taken this thread off track so many times that it is almost useless for its original intent.</p>
<p>I do not own the bandwidth...but I hoped to gather facts for the research that you applauded originally. You do not seem to be interested in the facts and you make statements like the $650B in a previous post that have no bearing on the intent of this thread.</p>
<p>This really looks like something we would not want as Americans! What planet do you live on ObserverNY? NGO stands for Non-Government Organization n</p>
<p>Culture of Peace : what is it ?</p>
<p>As defined by the United Nations, the Culture of Peace is a set of values, attitudes, modes of behaviour and ways of life that reject violence and prevent conflicts by tackling their root causes to solve problems through dialogue and negotiation among individuals, groups and nations (UN Resolutions A/RES/52/13 : Culture of Peace and A/RES/53/243, Declaration and Programme of Action on a Culture of Peace). For peace and non-violence to prevail, we need to:</p>
<p>foster a culture of peace through education </p>
<p>by revising the educational curricula to promote qualitative values, attitudes and behaviours of a culture of peace, including peaceful conflict-resolution, dialogue, consensus-building and active non-violence. Such an educational approach should be geared also to:</p>
<p>promote sustainable economic and social development </p>
<p>by reducing economic and social inequalities, by eradicating poverty and by assuring sustainable food security , social justice, durable solutions to debt problems, empowerment of women, special measures for groups with special needs, environmental sustainability </p>
<p>promote respect for all human rights </p>
<p>human rights and a culture of peace are complementary: whenever war and violence dominate, there is no possibility to ensure human rights; at the same time, without human rights, in all their dimensions, there can be no culture of peace...</p>
<p>ensure equality between women and men </p>
<p>through full participation of women in economic, social and political decision-making, elimination of all forms of discrimination and violence against women, support and assistance to women in need, </p>
<p>foster democratic participation </p>
<p>indispensable foundations for the achievement and maintenance of peace and security are democratic principles, practices and participation in all sectors of society, a transparent and accountable governance and administration, the combat against terrorism, organized crime, corruption, illicit drugs and money laundering </p>
<p>advance understanding, tolerance and solidarity </p>
<p>to abolish war and violent conflicts we need to transcend and overcome enemy images with understanding, tolerance and solidarity among all peoples and cultures. Learning from our differences, through dialogue and the exchange of information, is an enriching process </p>
<p>support participatory communication and the free flow of information and knowledge </p>
<p>freedom of information and communication and the sharing of information and knowledge are indispensable for a culture of peace. However, measures need to be taken to address the issue of violence in the media, including new information and communication technologies </p>
<p>promote international peace and security </p>
<p>the gains in human security and disarmament in recent years, including nuclear weapons treaties and the treaty banning land mines, should encourage us to increase our efforts in negotiation of peaceful settlements, elimination of production and traffic of arms and weapons, humanitarian solutions in conflict situations, post-conflict initiatives </p>
<p>It seems to me the intent of your desire to gather feedback from graduates of IB is nothing more than something IBO will try to use to further endorse its propaganda. After you have edited out data like the Mom of a Cornell student who didn't even get college credit for IB HL History of the Americas and other criticisms, you will produce a glowing assessment of how much better IB is than AP because you didn't get many responses to your AP question, thereby proving IB superior. </p>
<p>I would think current events, federal funding and political agendas revolving around the specific educational "programme" you are researching would be relevant to anyone who didn't already have a predetermined conclusion and intent. </p>
<p>My "experience" with IB is that of a parent and taxpayer afflicted by IB in my home district who has carefully charted the testing outcomes, college acceptances and history of the organization selling the program. I don't need to take IB in order to know that it is a UN brainwashing programme. If you want to add support to such a wasteful, destructive venue, I can't stop you. I can only provide you with evidence to back up my claims. You can choose to bury your head in the sand (hey, did you see the Fischer-Price dolls and Nintendo games that say "Islam is the light"?) All I know is, I have tried to spread the truth. </p>
<p>God bless.</p>
<p>I don't think he edited out the student who didn't get credit for the HoA class; the percentages reflect who did/didn't get credit. If it had been edited out the percentages would be higher.</p>
<p>The issue of credit has been discussed often, and many IB students do take AP exams to increase their credit possibilities.<br>
Perhaps this will assist IBO with talking to colleges about increasing credit earned.</p>
<p>I for one still want to know why some colleges grant 30 plus hours to diploma students, which means the SL courses earn credit in addition to the HL, but don't grant credit to SL courses when the student doesn't go for the diploma (even if they take 4 HL courses, 2 SL, do TOK and don't do the EE or CAS)? The SL course remains the same course whether it is part of the diploma program or not.</p>
<p>I have tried to get Jay Mathews of the Wash Post forum to specifically ask this of universities, but have not heard anything yet (he was writing about discrepancies between AP credit and IB).</p>
<p>IB students/parents, and OP, what do universities say in regards to this issue?</p>
<p>It's not as if you can't check the posts yourself...</p>
<p>
[quote]
After you have edited out data like the Mom of a Cornell student who didn't even get college credit for IB HL History of the Americas and other criticisms, you will produce a glowing assessment of how much better IB is than AP because you didn't get many responses to your AP question, thereby proving IB superior.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Never mind that logical leap at the back - I see no "glowing assessment", only statistics gathered from the internet which you can cross-check yourself, and it would take quite an orator to convince anyone that IB is superior because no one answered the AP question - but the original post says:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yes and no. My daughter got absolutely no college credit for her IB work per se. Her college does not give credit for IB scores, no matter how high, in any SL subjects. It also does not happen to give credit for IB history or music, which were two of her HL subjects, and it gives credit for IB HL English only if you get a 7 (she got a 6). However, my daughter took AP tests as backups to several of her IB exams and got a total of 9 college credits that way (she got another 21 from AP tests that followed actual AP courses).She also found that introductory college courses were routine after completing IB and that there was no jump in difficulty between the last year of IB and the first year of college.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>In any case I see no reason why rwlavalley should pick out specific examples where IB graduates were somehow "shortchanged" in terms of credits because he is clearly collecting data to arrive at a general consensus, and any specific examples would be anecdotal evidence at best. By the same token, I'm sure someone can also cite examples were the IB student got the credit they "deserved" - that hardly changes the argument.</p>
<p>Full disclosure: I did neither AP nor IB. At most top schools I am eligible for no more than 16 credits and it is quite possible I will not claim any of them. You can consider my perspective skewed because I'm not concerned about credits, only college preparedness (and I didn't do IB, okay?)</p>
<p>The OP pm'd me so I'm glad I was able to get my original responses sorted out with them. I apologize for adding to the subject going off topic. But on topic, the OP was looking for facts that the IB program was a benefit to their children. While at the same time, Observer was looking for facts that the IB program wasn't just a waste of resources, time, and moving our children to some one world government mentality. Well; the only facts I have are what has happened to my children since attending the IB program, graduating High School, and their success in college. Here are my facts. They can be applied to both sides of the OP's interests and Observer's concerns.</p>
<p>Facts:</p>
<p>1) Daughter graduated from the IB program/high school with a 3.75 gpa. Son graduated from the IB program/high school with a 4.0 gpa.
2) Daughter and Son were both very active in high school. Daughter was in choir, theater, etc... Son was in orchestra as well as an all state athlete in football and soccer. Both had a full social life dating and friends.
3) Both daughter and son became more organized, better management skills - especially in time management; and more confident individuals who had no problems asking questions and learning the WHY's of life instead of just accepting what was told to them.
4) Daughter didn't receive the IB diploma, but did receive certification in a number of classes and received approximately 12 credits in college. My son received the IB diploma, was accepted to a very prestigious school that doesn't give college credit FOR ANTHING. IB OR AP. But, without the IB program or AP classes, you are almost guaranteed to NOT GET ACCEPTED. My son's IB/High School classmate who also received the IB diploma, received here entire freshman year of credits at the college she attended. (Same as my daughter).
5) Daughter graduates this semester after EXACTLY 4 years, with a 3.45 gpa, and having worked 3 of those years as a Resident Advisor. Most kids graduate college in 5-6 years. 2 of my daughter's IB high school classmates graduated in 3 years from college. She agrees that IB made studying, learning, adapting, and socializing easier. Son finished his first semester at the prestigious college maintaining a 4.0 gpa. He said most of the classes were easier because they were a continuation of where he left off in the IB program.</p>
<p>These are OUR facts. As facts, they are not really up for debate or argument. Observer or others can say that my children would have done just as good in high school and eventually college if they had stayed in the traditional curriculum. I would disagree. I have seen many children, especially younger, who get bored and/or discouraged with school. Mainly because the teacher has to spend more time with the kids that aren't/can't/don't want/etc... to learn. I saw this happening to my kids in junior high. They were finishing their assignments in half the time, and the rest of their classes they were being told to sit there and wait. I personally believe that the IB program helped make my children as academically successful as they are. And while I can't go back in time and see what would have happened if they stayed in the traditional class room setting; neither can Observer or the opponents who say they might have done just as good. While I believe the IB program can be beneficial to all students; I don't believe that it's set up yet in a way that can help just any student. That would require an IB program that starts in the 1st grade. The current high school IB program is beneficial only to students who really want to learn and succeed. Primarily for those who have already demonstrated this with exceptional grades up to that point. Anyway, these are OUR facts. Whether you LIKE the facts or not is up to you.</p>
<p>I have not eliminated any answers from the research. Again, I am interested in facts from those that took or children took IB.</p>
<p>I now have 107 respondents.</p>
<p>I would agree with your statement that IB Certificate students who take SL don't get credit while IB Diploma graduates do get credit for SL. It does not make sense to me. I am not sure colleges are giving credit for a specific course when they grant 30 credits. But regardless, that is not IBO problem but an inconsistency of various colleges.</p>
<p>At this point, I would recommend any student with an IB SL exam to take the department advancement tests during orientation/registration in their college. The curriculum is typically college level in IB SL classes and if a student does well in the college assessment, they will get advanced.</p>
<p>Here is a list of schools that respondents said they graduated from or were currently in school:
Amherst
Barnard
Bilkent University, Ankara
Boston University
BYU
Cal Poly
Cal Tech
Carnegie Melon
Colorado
Colorado State
Cornell
Cornell
Dartmouth
Duke
Eckard College
Emory Riddle
Florida Atlantic University
Florida International University
GA Tech
George Mason
George Washington
Harvard
Haverford
John Hopkins
Kent State
Mary Washington
Middlebury College;
Mississippi
MIT
NC State
Northwestern
Notre Dame
Occidental College
Pacific
Penn State
Penn State
Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology
RPI
St. Mary's - Maryland
Stetson
Swarthmore.
Tufts
Tulane
U of FL
U of Vermont
U of Wyoming
UC Santa Cruz
UCLA
Univerisity of California - Berkley
Univeristy of Maryland
University of VA
University of British Columbia
University of Chicago
University of GA
University of Illinois
University of Kansas
University of Miami
University of North Florida
University of South Florida
University of St Thomas
University of Tampa
University of Texas
US Air Force Academy
US Coast Guard Academy
Vassar
Virginia Commonwealth
Virginia Tech University
Washington & Lee
Washington University of St. Louis
Whitman College
Willamette University
William & Mary</p>
<p>Rich</p>
<p>I missed one school
Princeton.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
It does not make sense to me. I am not sure colleges are giving credit for a specific course when they grant 30 credits. But regardless, that is not IBO problem but an inconsistency of various colleges.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>First you say it doesn't make sense and then you make a definitive conclusion that it is not an IBO problem but blame the colleges. </p>
<p>It DOES make sense, I responded to 3321 privately so as not to take the thread offtrack, but since you started the thread, I am going to provide you with an answer that makes sense.</p>
<p>"Schools may offer select IB classes, but 'the meaning of what we think is a valid international education is lost if overdone, Richardson said. "The meaning of a program is only really understood once you get the diploma'." ~Bradley Richardson, former Regional Director of IBNA</p>
<p>Universities recognize the full Diploma "programme" including SL exams for credit because it is a "programme". Schools that award 30 credits for scores of 30 or higher on the IB diploma, in most cases, award general education not course specific credits. Someone in this thread even commented on how IB is "better" than AP because it is a program, not individual classes. </p>
<p>Once you break out individual SL IB courses as stand-alone units, you have now put them in the category of being able to compare them to AP courses (both 1 yr./150 hrs.) When comparing apples to apples, SL IB courses are NOT college-level courses in terms of difficulty and content. It's as simple as that, and it makes sense. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If IBO is going on record as saying the meaning of its program is LOST if you only take select IB classes, one certainly can't fault universities for not giving those classes college credit.</p>
<p>I have no problem with colleges giving credit only for UL IB classes. My daughter didn't score high enough on her finals to get the IB diploma. But she did get 12 credits from the classes she did score well on. A classmate of hers; also didn't get the diploma; received 18 credits. Of the 5 students I know who received the IB diploma, 2 went to schools that don't give credit. (They don't give credit for AP either). The other 3 received anywhere from 24 to 33 credits depending on the college they applied to. I know 2 IB graduates who finished college in 3 years. (The average student is taking MORE than 4 years). I know 2 students in there 4th year of college and will graduate this semester. And 1 in their 4th year that's in their 1st semester of their Master's. Take it for what it's worth. Some colleges give more credit than others. Some colleges don't give any. Some don't give any for AP classes. But the majority of IB students/graduates, at least the ones from our high school, seem to have done quite well in college.</p>
<p>I'm sorry your daughter didn't earn the diploma. Was she disappointed? </p>
<p>What you have to keep in mind is that the majority of students who DO go for the full diploma are the top 10-15% of a class anyway. With or without IB, those students are most likely to do well in college and graduate within 4 years. Many AP Scholars, especially those that earn Scholar with Distinction or National AP Scholar also graduate in 3 years. There is simply no proof that taking IB in high school gives those students an edge over accomplished AP students.</p>
<p>Just curious, are you saying there were only 7 full Diploma candidates in your school? Or are those are just the ones you know? What was the total # of students and pass rate for the IB Diploma in your school?</p>
<p>I would disagree on your assessment of SL courses as not being college level. I have received responses from people who have taken AP tests (without AP courses) after SL courses and gotten 4 or 5 on the AP test with little or no additional preparation. If what you state were true, then AP should not be considered college level.</p>
<p>If you get a diploma, you can take up to 4 courses at HL and the rest at SL. Most students take 3 HL and 3 SL. What Richardson said is true, the entire picture is lost to those students who only take the certificate route. </p>
<p>If students want college credit and take an IB class, they should take HL classes.</p>
<p>BTW, is it true that for AP tests, you only have to get 67% correct on the test to receive a 5? I know that is not the case in IB tests.</p>
<p>Again, I repeat. Both AP and IB are excellent programs so don't go down that road.</p>
<p>On the OP's topic: my experience confirms what afadad has said: IB graduates almost uniformly report that the IB experience prepared them well for the demands of college work, especially in terms of writing and organization. I think it is probably true that IB and AP are similar in terms of substantive preparation, as long as one takes a pretty full slate of AP.</p>
<p>As for the off-topic part of this discussion, I just have to say that I remember when, as a kid, I was part of a church group trick-or-treating for UNICEF. Most people were very gracious, but I remember one guy who refused to give us any money because some of the money went to Communist countries. I'm sure he wouldn't like IB, either.</p>
<p>As with any child, she was initially disappointed. Who wouldn't be. But taking the IB program doesn't automatically guarantee a student the diploma. It requires higher test scores in the finals. She simply didn't score high enough. You are correct that taking the IB program doesn't automatically give students an edge over accomplished AP students. But there's also no proof that it doesn't. Again; I can only recount our family's experience. Both my daughter and son; as well as many of their IB friends who are in/graduated college, have all agreed that college was easier for them. Specifically their 1st year. (Which is usually the most difficult for students because of all the adjustments). They ALL said that studying and homework took a lot let time. That many of their friends were always doing homework and busy in their studies while they had more time to themselves. These friends weren't IB students in high school. Some did some AP classes and some didn't. </p>
<p>My wife and I were very involved in our children's education; including direct involvement with the school. The vast majority of my kid's friends WEREN'T in the IB program. My son was the only IB student on the Football team 10th-12th grade - JV/Varsity teams. But we knew all the students. The graduating class was small. Only 450 +/- students. More of the top 10 ranked students were IB students. Personally; I don't believe the IB program is for everyone. At least not in the manner it is currently. If you are an average or slightly above average student who excels in specific areas; then taking AP classes seem the most logical. AP classes in those areas that interest you and you excel in seems the most logical. For the student who is above average in all classes, the IB program; if available; could be the better choice. It takes you beyond just academics. It takes you beyond the average classes where teachers spend too much time on other issues than direct learning. </p>
<p>There's no doubt that there are some kids who are/were in IB that shouldn't be there. That's why I'm glad that 9th-10th grade are offered as Pre-IB and allows a student to change their mind and go back to traditional classes. In our high school, IB was in the same school. Most IB students had 2-3 electives where they were in classes with some of their non-IB friends or other students. E.g. Computer class, art class, choir, weight lifting, etc... This also helped with social adaption. I don't believe that IB and AP can be compared directly. AP is definitely the right instruction for some kids. IB is the right instruction for other kids. Unfortunately, there's also some students that can't benefit from either program. Then again, College was not meant for everyone. And to expect every child to go to college is more damaging than anything. Too many students are in college because that is what was "Expected" of them.</p>
<p>afadad,</p>
<p>I'm sorry your daughter was disappointed. Imho, that is one of the most major flaws of the IB program, the fact that on average, 20% of the students who go for the full diploma don't score high enough to earn it. Whether that is the fault of the teachers, the curriculum or the students, can't be determined. The end of high school and the beginning of college should be all about celebrations of what has been accomplished, not disappointments and failure. </p>
<p>I don't accept rwlavalley's statement that IB is an excellent program. Its claims of excellence lie entirely on hearsay and marketing strategies. </p>
<p>Hunt</p>
<p>I'm guessing your trick or treating days were before the Kofi Annan Food for Oil scandal, eh? When did kids stop trick or treating for UNICEF anyway? And why? ;-)</p>