International Baccalaureate College Graduates

Parents Forum
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<p>Observer. DON'T be sorry that my daughter was disappointed. I'M NOT!!!! Life is all about success and failure. All about satisfaction and disappointment. We mature, grow, and excel much more from our disappointments and failures than we do from our achievements. I'm a firm believe that EVERY STUDENT should be forced to participate in team athletics during high school. Not only is it physically good for them, but it teaches them how to WIN and LOSE. And how to become a stronger person. I don't want a world where kids don't keep score in school. Where every student gets the "A" or diploma because we don't want to hurt their feelings. School is suppose to be a place where not only do we educate a student academically, but where we try and prepare them for the 'Real World". This means that you don't always get what you want. Where there will be disappointments. Where you build character with experience.</p>

<p>As for the IB program, I believe that "FOR SOME STUDENTS" it's the BEST and GREATEST academic program for them. For others, I believe that taking individual AP classes is the BEST FOR THEM. For others still, neither program is right. They need to be in a traditional classroom environment where they are the ones the teacher is spending most of their time with. The IB program CAN be an EXCELLENT program. But it depends on the student. The IB program is not for the C-B student. It requires too much self discipline and initiative. For the "A" student or "A" and some "B's"; the IB program can be an excellent program.</p>

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<p>While not everbody gets the score needed for the IB diploma, not all AP students get high enough scores to get credits. The nice thing in the US is that in both cases the kids generally still get their high school diplomas.</p>

<p>People still trick or treat for UNICEF. Trick-or-Treat</a> for UNICEF :: Youth Action :: U.S. Fund for UNICEF - UNICEF USA
Maybe they have a secret mark so they know which houses are anti-UN.</p>

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<p>afadad,</p>

<p>I question how you can call yourself a Conservative while making the following statement:</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
I'm a firm believe that EVERY STUDENT should be forced to participate in team athletics during high school. Not only is it physically good for them, but it teaches them how to WIN and LOSE.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Forced? Wow. Should every student be forced to learn a musical instrument? Much research has shown that learning a musical instrument is akin to learning another language and strengthens the intellect. Should every child be forced to take part in the school drama? Or forced to write for the school newspaper? </p>

<p>Students are forced to take PE as part of their regular school day. There's a reason extracurricular activities are called extracurricular.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
The IB program is not for the C-B student.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Where can I find that statement at International</a> Baccalaureate (IB)?</p>

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<p>Hunt,</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Maybe they have a secret mark so they know which houses are anti-UN.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>LOL! But herein lies the difference, back when you and I were kids, I don't know about your school but my public school distributed the UNICEF "milk cartons" to the children before Halloween. Public school distribution seemed to stop around the time Reagan pulled the U.S. out of UNESCO. George W. Bush was the one to actually rejoin UNESCO (foolishly). I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see IB schools reintroduce the effort.</p>

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<p>I guess, with all the debates of some us justifying why we support the IB program; the question has to be asked of Observer. "What Was the Harm to my Children for having been in the IB Program?" We can't go back in time, so please don't try and SPECULATE what my son/daughter would have done in a traditional class taking some AP classes. That would be like trying to speculate what if they went to UCLA instead of Arizona State. It's too hypothetical with no way of knowing the answer. So let's not try. But here are my 2 children's FACTUAL years; each did 4 years of IB. What negatives came from being in the IB program?</p>

<ol>
<li>Daughter: 4 years of IB program. Graduated with a 3.75 gpa. Involved with numerous extra curricular activities such as Choir, Theater, and soccer. Had numerous friends in BOTH IB and Non-IB classes that she hung out with in and out of school. Dated 3 different boys in that 4 year High School IB period. The longest relationship (up through her 1st year in college) was a Non-IB student who wound up attending the local Community college. Daughter graduated and was accepted to numerous colleges. She did NOT receive the IB diploma, but scored high in some areas. She decided on State University. She Received 12 credits for the IB HL classes she scored high enough in. She's commented that the IB program helped her study better and use her time more efficiently. She is a better analytical thinker and communicator. She spent her freshman year in college a lot less stressful than many of her peers/classmates. A Lot less time doing homework and studying. She graduates this semester; 1 year ahead of the "Average" college student. For the last 3 years in college, she's been a resident adviser running the dormitory and helping freshman/sophomores with their daily lives. In her spare time she continues to do ballet/dance, hang out with friends, date, sports, and travel. She went to 2 job fairs recently and applied for jobs after graduating. Both interviews (Weeks later); involved no LESS than 20 other applicants. She's been offered a job at BOTH companies that she applied to.</li>
</ol>

<p>WHERE DID IB FAIL HER? Or at least; HOW COULD SHE HAVE DONE BETTER WITHOUT IB?</p>

<ol>
<li>Son: 4 years of IB program. Graduated with a 4.00 gpa. Class ranking #1 of 465. Involved with numerous extra curricular activities such as Orchestra, Soccer, and Football. All state Football player. Ranked one of the best ever in the state. Had numerous friends in BOTH IB and Non-IB classes that he hung out with in and out of school. Dated 4 different girls in that 4 year High School IB period. The longest relationship (currently through his 1st year in college) was a Non-IB student who is attending State University. Son graduated and was accepted to numerous colleges. Scholarship offers to 4 of the acceptances. 3 FULL RIDE. He did receive the IB diploma. He decided on one of the TOP 10 Prestigious Colleges/Universities in the entire country . He didn't receive any credits for the IB HL classes. This university doesn't give credit for AP classes or IB classes. But without taking them, acceptance is almost not possible. He too commented that the IB program helped him study better and use time more efficiently. He too is a better analytical thinker and communicator. Questioning everything. He spent her freshman year in college a lot less stressful than many of her peers/classmates. Even tutoring many of his classmates. One of ONLY 24 students in the school to get a perfect 4.0 gpa this past fall semester. A Lot less time doing homework and studying. He is STILL involved playing college football, yet the university doesn't give athletic scholarships. He was accepted totally on his academics, extra curricular activities, social life, volunteering, etc... He still has a good social life and is still seeing his high school girlfriend a couple weekends a month. They go to school a few hundred miles away from each other.</li>
</ol>

<p>WHERE DID IB FAIL HIM? Or again, HOW COULD HE HAVE DONE BETTER WITHOUT IB?</p>

<p>Again; I will NEVER say that IB is right for every student. Neither is the AP classes right for every student. But to believe that the IB program is totally evil, is unsubstantiated. You have no proof whatsoever that my children were harmed; or would have done better without the IB program. They were definitely NOT indoctrinated into a one world government mentality. Put it this way; they were BOTH UPSET when Obama was elected. They are both conservative republicans. I just don't see how you justify your allegations. Please, tell me how my children would have done BETTER without IB. I can't tell you that they wouldn't have done just as good. But I can tell you that they WEREN'T NEGATIVELY IMPACTED by going through the IB program.</p>

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<p>P.S. To observer. You asked about the sports comment I made. 1st; PE is NOT mandatory in all schools. Our high school only required 1 semester in the entire high school years. 2nd; the comment was Rhetorical to teach children how to win, lose, succeed, fail, etc... basically, teach them REAL LIFE. This is in contrast to those who believe students shouldn't KEEP SCORE when playing games or sports.</p>

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<p>Last year across all AP Exams -
Scores # of tests<br>
5 370938 (13.9%)
4 517232 (19.3%)
3 646516 (24.2%)
2 575104 (21.5%)
1 564506 (21.1%)
T 2674296
MEAN GRADE 2.83</p>

<p>Passing is considered to be a 3 or better. I don't see why you think AP is so much better than IB. 42.6% of the students taking AP don't get credit for all their hard work.</p>

<p>IB has similiar results nationwide. In fact, it is slightly better.</p>

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<p>Here are the IB Scores Nationwide for last year</p>

<p>Total tests taken: 291021
1 8731 3%
2 11641 4%
3 37833 13%
4 72755 25%
5 87306 30%
6 58204 20%
7 20371 7%</p>

<p>mean score of 4.69</p>

<p>Passing grade for IB is 4. College Credit is typically granted for 5 or higher for HL classes at many schools and some even at 4 or higher. SL classes are not so lucky unless you get the diploma.</p>

<p>I have the breakdown for HL and SL. And if you want, so could you if you just got it off the IBO sight.</p>

<p>I have the numbers for both</p>

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<p>As best as I can remember as a parent. DS has been out of HS for 7 years. </p>

<p>q1. Did IB help in college prep? What helped? Writing skills? Study skills?
ans. DS is very organized and managed his time even as a young kid. He liked to read and his writing skills "may" have been enhanced by the writing tasks in IB. </p>

<p>q2) Did you receive college credit or advancement for your IB work? Did it help you to be advanced?
ans. DS was an engineering major. His school only accepted 5 for credits. He was able to waive a humanity class. The math placement was determined by the schools own math test of which he was able to waive some of calculus. His state school offered high sophmore status but engineering classes would still take 4 years minimum. </p>

<p>q3)Did you graduate from college? What school? Or if still in college what was your GPA after 4 semesters?
ans. CMU graduate. high honors. dual major. ~20% of his engineering class had a dual major. </p>

<p>4)If you graduated from college, are you in a career related to your college degree?
ans. yes, career is related to college degree.</p>

<p>5) In high school, did you take any AP exams in addition to IB exams? If so, what did you score and did you take without additional preparation? Did your school offer joint IB/AP courses?
ans. I think he took AP chem, biology, American History and did so without prep. His scores were high enough to waive State's Univ. course work but wouldn't affect major status. HS did offer IB/AP, some of the AP was taught as IB. </p>

<p>6)Did you get a Diploma or only IB certificate(s)? If certificates, how many? Where? What State or Country?
Ans. Dip. Oregon. </p>

<p>DS kinda breezed through HS. He's an ideal kid and has sought opportunities and made things happen. He would have done well in any HS program. Comparison b/w IB vs AP is pointless.</p>

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<p>Oooo goodie, I love statistics. So let's take a look at the ones you posted from a different perspective, rather than just the "passing" grade as we both know that while more and more universities aren't giving college credit for either AP or IB, the "better" colleges require 4's and 5's on AP and HL 6's and 7's for IB. So, if we are going to compare how many actual students had the real possibility of earning college credit from both offerings, we need to be honest about which scores translate into actual credit. When we do that, we find that:</p>

<p>33.2% (888,170) AP students were likely to earn college credit</p>

<p>13.5% (39,287) IB students were likely to earn college credit (27% divided by 2 for the SL)</p>

<p>Looks a little different now, doesn't it? Chances are that IB percentage might be even lower because there might be a greater than 50% # of SL exams earning 7's.</p>

<p>I have a problem with the "trend" of public schools nationwide to push unqualified students into IB/AP courses under Open Enrollment. This is the reason you see so many failing scores. If you go to the College Board's Report to the Nation, you will also see that African Americans and Hispanics constitute the largest percentage of failing scores, while Asians outscore whites. IBO provides you with no such information. The motive for educrats to do this is not to benefit the children, but rather to put warm bodies in the seats so they can improve their ratio and make their way up Jay Mathews' Newsweek List.</p>

<p>Btw, did you see Newsweek's cover this week? </p>

<p>"We Are All Socialists Now"</p>

<p>Well, not me Newsweek. Not me.</p>

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<p>Afadad,</p>

<p>I am not going to criticize your children nor am I going to Monday morning quarterback how your daughter in particular was "harmed" by IB. There are many factors that come into play ranging from whether your daughter was really qualified to take on the full diploma or whether the teachers did a poor job in preparing her for the exams. Her high GPA and non-earning of the diploma indicate internal grade inflation. I have seen this in my own school where IB students scored 98s and 99s for quarterly grades and then got 2s on the IB exam. Something is seriously askew. You state both of your children are Conservative like you, is it possible your daughter's essay responses elicited biased anti-American marking from the external IB examiners?</p>

<p>Btw, you never answered my question as to how many IB Diploma students there were in your school and the overall pass rate. ;-)</p>

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<p>First; I don't believe my daughter's grade were inflated. That is basically the gpa she always had. Mostly "A" with a couple of "B's". My daughter has never been the greatest at standardized tests; including the ACT and SAT and I believe that is why she didn't get the IB diploma. No, I don't believe that my daughter's conservative views had any negative impact due to biased examiners. </p>

<p>To be honest, you really shouldn't have gone there. You are really stretching now, and your bias is really coming through. I think you dislike IB so much, that you are willing to rationalize my daughter's success, even though she didn't get the diploma. And you never even mentioned my son's results. Which couldn't have been any better no matter how hard you try. Including class rank of #1 and he did get the IB diploma. </p>

<p>As for how many received the IB diploma; unfortunately I do not have the exact numbers. I know a lot of kids who did get it. But I also know some kids who didn't. I really do think that you are extremely biased against IB and don't want to recognize the success of many of the students. The reason you can't monday morning quarterback my children if they were harmed, is because they weren't harmed by the IB program. Just because my daughter didn't receive the IB diploma doesn't mean that she didn't benefit from the program. Both my son and daughter were more than qualified to take on the IB program. And EVERY college I have researched has said that a 3.75 in the IB program; or a FULL AP LOAD; is better than a 4.0 in a totally traditional academic curriculum. </p>

<p>Sorry observer, but I gave you an opportunity to tell me what you believe the negatives of the IB program are; and how they may have possibly affected my children. You can't do it. I think because both my children were so successful, it proves my point. Mainly that the IB program in and of itself is a fine program. But just like the AP classes; they aren't meant for everyone. From my experiences, ANY negative you can point to academically with the IB program, I believe can be applied to the AP classes. And as for the IB program being a UN educational blanket; I DO consider that a conspiracy theory. I live in one of the most conservative states in the country. With some of the most conservative people in the country. Including the teachers. What you're saying just isn't true. Sorry.</p>

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<p>Again, you are showing you lack of or unwillingness to understand the IB Program. It is not meant for college credit but college preparedness. If IB students get college credit, great. Your overwhelming bias against IB and it looks bias against minorities is showing.</p>

<p>Having both SL or HL in IB is part of the program. If you took the time to research IB, you would figure it out. SL classes by design are not as comprehensive as HL classes. Gee, that sounds like college doesn't it - Calc 1 vs Calc 2. Calc 2 is harder than Calc 1. I realize this it tough stuff but try to read what I have put down. </p>

<p>So again, why don't you tell me how AP is better. The numbers are not better...oh, you say that is because minorities are making the scores lower. Over 40% fail, but again you rationalize it because of minorities.</p>

<p>Hmmmm, research again says that if a student takes either AP or IB class regardless of getting a passing grade, they are more likely to succeed in college. Hmmmm, we can't have that, we must keep education away from those that don't have it....right ObserverNY.</p>

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<p>afadad and rwlavalley,</p>

<p>Oh here we go, call me biased and racist because I point out that AP breaks out exam results by ethnicity while IB does not. Really, this Leftist attack on any analysis where race comes up is beyond the pale. I didn't vote for Obama either, so that must really make me a racist, right? Never mind that fact that I didn't vote for him because he is a Marxist. Grow up.</p>

<p>Afadad, I'm glad your children are successful, as are mine, both non-IB, but I haven't filled up pages carrying on about MY children, now have I? Nor am I going to, even though I am tremendously proud of them and their accomplishments. You don't believe your daughter's grades were inflated? Uh, ok.... then how come she couldn't get at least a 4 on all of her IB exams? Heck, I do believe you are even allowed to get a 3 or 2 on an IB exam and STILL earn the diploma as long as it is offset by another exam. Since you keep bragging that she got 12 credits for one of her exams, that would SEEM to counter one very low exam, so frankly sir, I don't have an explanation for you why your daughter failed to achieve the IB diploma, but according to you she did. I bet if she were to stumble across this forum she would be very embarrassed to see herself being discussed in this manner, so to your daughter whom I do not know, I apologize. I try not to make this issue personal as almost every IB supporter tends to do. </p>

<p>You should have learned in IB that it is impossible to prove a negative, therefore it is impossible for me to prove what negative "effects" IB had on your children. Your boastful chestpounding makes for wonderful bravado, but hardly "proves" the alleged merit of the "programme".</p>

<p>And you STILL haven't responded to my question about how many DP students there were in total in your HS and the pass rate. Having trouble finding that data? Why am I not surprised? ;-)</p>

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<p>There were 136,739 HL Tests last year</p>

<p>1 257 0%
2 3,560 3%
3 11,926 9%
4 25,679 19%
5 41,840 31%
6 38,479 28%
7 14,117 10%</p>

<p>Again, your "facts" don't line up do they.</p>

<p>As far as growing up, you should! </p>

<p>Your children's success is admirable!</p>

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<p>Thanks LongPrime for contributing.</p>

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<p>rwlavalley,</p>

<p>My facts line up just fine. Take a look at yours again, please
Using the refined data you just provided, approximately 18% of IB students are posed to earn potential college credit, as opposed to 33% of all AP test takers. And once again, if we break away from IB's obsession with reporting data in percentages rather than real numbers, 888,000 to 52,000 is a landslide revealing that slightly more than 6% of those students most eligible for college credit in this country are IB students. If I were in the position of deciding which curriculum to offer students in terms of which one provides students with the greater opportunity to earn advanced credit, would I choose the one that costs less and works for 94%? Or the vastly more expensive one that serves 6%? Gee, that's a tough one. </p>

<p>Now, if you want to take the "but IB isn't ABOUT getting college credit" strawman argument, go right ahead. I dismiss it. It is very difficult to quantify the value of education in esoteric terms, but in terms of dollars paid for a college tuition, it is calculable. If you choose not to do those calculations because you don't like the outcome, that's not my fault. HOWEVER, paid IB advocates like Jay Mathews have no qualms about wasting columns whining about SL IB being "discriminated" against by college credit setting committees and even accusing them of educational "malpractice". To me that is hypocritical and disingenuous. You either care that colleges give credit for IB courses, or you don't. You can't have it both ways.</p>

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<p>Observer; sorry, but you are really closing your mind on this topic. And you know so very little about IB. Yes, I said you were biased. What is wrong with that. You just ACCUSED my daughter's teachers and/or exam graders of BEING BIASED. Why is that OK, but it's not OK for you to be biased. We all have biases. I never said you were racist. I don't believe in race. I ONLY believe in Americans. I REFUSE to recognize ANY natural born American (USA) citizen with ANY type of hyphen. We are AMERICANS. Unless you have a specific question of me, I think this will be my last response to you on this subject. But if you do have a direct question, ask it. Let me finish by clarifying why you are really mistaking.</p>

<p>1) I DID ANSWER you question about how many IB students received their IB diploma. I said; THAT I DID NOT KNOW!!!! What, do you want me to make up a number????</p>

<p>2) I DID NOT write anything about my kids here in order to brag. I wrote it because YOU, yes YOU, said that the IB is basically an evil and unsubstantiated academic program that is doing more harm than good. I simply wrote my children's success in the program; and simply asked that you tell me where IB failed them.</p>

<p>3) My daughter DID NOT GET 12 credits for 1 EXAM. That is NOT POSSIBLE. She received 12 credits from her university for all the IB classes she scored high enough that they considered equal to their college classes. Basically, they gave her 12 credits for 4 classes.</p>

<p>4) You definitely don't know about the IB program or students. Do you honestly believe that every student should be able to get the diploma? Every student should score a 4 or higher? Why do some traditional students get a "C" in science while others get an "A"? Again, I already answered this question, but you refuse to listen. I said that my daughter "Probably" didn't score high enough because she doesn't do very well on standardized tests. She didn't do well on the ACT/SAT either. But yet she has had not problem in school scoring well on tests, homework, projects, etc... It's probably a psych thing, but that's how it is. But I do know more that got the diploma than who didn't.</p>

<p>5) I am NOT TRYING TO PROVE that IB is a wonderful program through any type of chest pounding. I'm just giving you data to work with. Or enough rope to hang yourself with. See, YOU are the one that came on this forum and started to slander the IB program. You are the one saying how bad it it. It is NOT UP TO ME to prove that the IB program is good. It's UP TO YOU to prove that the IB program is bad. Your stats that you've shown prove nothing to me. I took a lot of various stat classes in college. Your numbers prove nothing. IB and AP are NOT DESIGNED TO GIVE YOU COLLEGE CREDIT. COLLEGE IS DESIGNED TO GIVE YOU COLLEGE CREDIT!!!! If a college gives you credit for classes taken in high school, that's a bonus. As mentioned, IB should be preparing a student for college; not giving them college. If the goal of AP (Advanced Placement) is for college credit, that's fine. IB is NOT AP. AP is individual classes for a subject a student excels in. IB is a program for the entire student. College credit is only a plus. I also do not care about your stats on minorities or any other group. I refuse to recognize anyone because of any minority status.</p>

<p>Bottom line is; YOU STARTED this debate. It is up to YOU to PROVE that the IB program is detrimental to the health and well being of our children. We have already looked at the pros and cons and made a decision. We have NEVER said that the AP program or traditional education is bad or that IB is BETTER. You're the one claiming that the IB program is bad. YOU HAVE TO PROVE IT! The burden of proof is on you. If you can't or won't prove it, then your opinion means absolutely nothing. You are making unsubstantiated claims.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Afadad, I'm glad your children are successful, as are mine, both non-IB, but I haven't filled up pages carrying on about MY children, now have I? Nor am I going to, even though I am tremendously proud of them and their accomplishments.

[/quote]
Did they apply for an IB program? Were they rejected? Or perhaps, did they suffer in college admissions because they chose not to take IB, and thus were not considered to be in the school's most rigorous curriculum? These are factors that could certainly contribute to turning a person against IB. It seems to me that if you are going to participate in a discussion in which others describe how their kids were helped or harmed by IB, you might want to answer these questions.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Did they apply for an IB program? Were they rejected? Or perhaps, did they suffer in college admissions because they chose not to take IB,

[/quote]

There's certainly something going on there. I'm curious as to what.</p>

<p>My daughter's program encourages students to take the AP exam at the end of their SL courses, and the students have been very successful. In that particular school, clearly the IB courses are as rigorous and advanced as the AP classes. </p>

<p>Afadad is right, though, and I bless him for his patience. There is no right path for every student and it's a great thing that different kids have choices appropriate to their needs and abilities.</p>

<p>IB is right for my D2 because the extended essay and other long-term writing/research projects suit her abilities and passions perfectly. She is gleeful over her extended essay and I can't imagine how that's anything but good for her. D1 is a different kid entirely and took an a la carte program of APs. Perfect plan for her.</p>