internet access banned/lmtd in law school classes due to surfing/e-mail/IMing

Parents Forum
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<p>I was dismayed by an article I read in the U of Chicago Maroon titled “Law School ends classroom Web access.” </p>

<p>Chicago</a> Maroon | Law School ends classroom Web access</p>

<p>They have decided to disable wireless and internet access in classrooms to try to reduce web surfing during class. Apparently, a majority of law school students surf and check e-mail in class. “Several observers have reported that one student will visit a gossip site or shop for shoes, and within twenty minutes an entire row is shoe shopping. Half the time a student is called on, the question needs to be repeated,” Levmore wrote in his e-mail to faculty and students.</p>

<p>Students at Stanford also IM, email and surf during class. The law school had to publish a policy stating that i-access should only be used for educational purposes connected with the class and only if it is not distracting to other students. Professors can set up their own policies.</p>

<p>Policies</a> | Stanford Law School</p>

<p>Harvard’s law and business schools have instituted limitations and Yale is considering them. </p>

<p>I can hardly believe this. I guess I know that junior high and high school students would do this if laptops were allowed. And I know that college students do it. But I never thought that students in very selective law or business schools would still be doing it. </p>

<p>Has all the practice of listening to several types of media while doing homework given these kids special powers that I don't have?</p>

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<p>Maybe some people are just better at multi-tasking than others. :-) I won't even tell you what I did while in grad school. (not that it's anything to be proud of, BTW). You may have heard of my book, "How Not To Succeed In Law School."</p>

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<p>But seriously, one would hope that the kids attending law schools of this caliber (or any law school, really) would have more sense. It's very competitive in the real world as well and grad school is no place to be slacking off, as I learned to my regret</p>

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<p>My daughter is a freshman at Stanford. One of her prof's got to class late, when another prof was giving the lecture. When he viewed the class from the back he realized that the whole class was on facebook. Laptops were banned in his class!</p>

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<p>I went to law school before the Internet, and students still managed to waste lots of time in the back rows of class with the New York Times crossword puzzle, the sports section and passing notes. I think it's up to the professor to make the lectures interesting and relevant enough that students are motivated to pay attention.</p>

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<p>whylion: And rightly so, I think! </p>

<p>The kids aren't actually in class for more than a few hours a day, are they? Can't they focus on the teacher for an hour or so without having to do something else? Why even go to class in the first place?</p>

<p>I know that the students are the ones who will ultimately lose out because of their behavior, but I still am disgusted with the lack of respect these kids are showing to their teachers and schools.</p>

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<p>While I agree with gladmom that the behavior can be seen as disrespectful to the professor and doesn't serve the "educational" goals of either the student or the prof or the school, I think that siliconvalleymom makes a very important point. Students have done "other" things in class since - well, certainly since I was a student (think dinosaurs roaming the earth) - and they do a lot less of "other" things if the professor is interesting and relevant. It's up to the teachers and the whole ed system to keep up and be engaging - otherwise the students simply don't want to be there and feel it is a waste of time. Especially in the age of the internet when information is so accessible in other ways.</p>

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<p>Many schools have a note-taking service and lectures/key points are available on line. May make lectures redundant. I'm sure if the traditional "Kingsfield/Socratean" method of calling upon students at random to answer questions was used, the students would not be able to cruise the net.
I became a whiz at NY Times Sunday puzzles during med school. Many lectures were deadly dull, and you had to study the book anyway.</p>

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<p>The real issue here is the addicive behavior many people exhibit with cell phones, crackberries and the like. Anyone who has been to a hs around recess will see most kids whipping out their cellphones at the doorway and begin texting even if their friend is in the vicinity. And it is also happening to college students and many adults too.</p>

<p>This need for instant access to people, data and info 24-7 is a bit disconcerting to me. And I think those BT devices hanging off the sides of peoples heads just looks silly unless used in the car as the hands free device.</p>

<p>I confess to having a cell phone but I will be giving it up when the current contract runs out. In my upcoming reitirement one in the home will be plenty. I lived w/o it for almost 60 years and I can spend the remaining yrs without the blasted thing. I usually leave it home anyway.</p>

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<p>Back in my day, there was no attendance requirement. If you were going to IM your way through class (if IM existed back then, that is...), you'd just as soon do it from the confines of your comfy bed.</p>

<p>I remember that there was one kid in a class a few years before mine who lived in LA--during the law school year! (School in NorCal) He would fly in a couple of weeks before finals, study and take his tests. Not my cup of tea, but all he wanted was the correct "stamp of approval." What a waste...</p>

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<p>ellemenope: I hope I'm not belaboring the point - but I am really interested in this whole issue - you say "what a waste" - what is the waste? Did this student waste his money - not if he felt he needed the stamp of approval. Did he waste his time - no, in fact he probably would have felt he was wasting his time in class if he was able to do the work on his own. Different people have different learning styles - some do well in lecture style (auditory learners) and some do better on their own (especially if they have processing difficulties). Maybe we have to rethink how we deliver "education" and maybe we need more options available. I don't know the answers - but I think these are very important questions that need to be answered. Especially, as I said earlier, in the age of the internet when information is no longer the commodity of the school.</p>

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<p>ellemenope: So is there an attendance requirement at most, or any, law schools now?</p>

<p>I'm wondering why the kids who get lost in their laptops come to class. Is it because they have to, or because they want to make sure they have the assignment, or because they can catch the gist of what the prof is saying and think that's enough. Why?</p>

<p>If the classes are so boring that students can't be bothered to listen for an hour, then I give up. There goes another one of my fantasies about higher education out the window. My son is so looking forward to interesting, engaging classes when he attends college, and I hope he won't be disappointed. </p>

<p>originaloog: I worry with you about the downside of addictive behaviors surrounding cell phones and internet use. </p>

<p>I wonder how parents who pay tens of thousands of dollars for college (most of us out there) would feel about their kid shopping for shoes or going on facebook during class. My blood pressure rises just thinking about it. </p>

<p>Guess I'll have to get a new login name--oldfogeymom.</p>

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<p>A woman I know recently visited Penn State with her daughter and sat in on an undergraduate class. From the back they witnessed the majority of the class sending IMs, shopping and checking out facebook. I think it is a societal problem, and one I struggle with myself. There is a need for constant contact and communication. At my company, while we all have Blackberrys, we better not get caught looking at them under the table during a meeting! I have to leave mine in my office, because I can't keep my hands off it.</p>

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<p>A year or so ago, I attended a session of the state legislature. From the gallery, I could see everyone's laptops. My eyesight wasn't good enough to see what web pages each was "tuned into," but I could clearly spot several fine public servants on retail shopping sites, etc.</p>

<p>Perhaps the law students are preparing for lives in public service? ;)</p>

<p>I agree with others who have said this is really a societal "issue" or progress, depending on POV. </p>

<p>Think how many of us admit to having the cc blue screen on while at work (I work for myself, so not in trouble with the boss).</p>

<p>DS doesn't carry his laptop to class and I guess I'm glad. But he is in Engineering and my impression is these kids really have to be engaged in classroom doings. </p>

<p>It would seem a waste if, as a parent, I'm paying the big (BIG) bucks and my kid is whiling away the class hours surfing the Net. If ellenemope's story is someone paying his own way to law school, or his parent's willingly said they just wanted to pay for the Seal of Approval - okay. But if parents thought they were buying an educational process, well...</p>

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<p>Jmmom: I guess you have it figured out. Public service it is! We must be evolving our mental capacities for multitasking. In the end, people will pay attention to what is relevant to them.</p>

<p>Reading these posts, it seems that frivolous computer activity during classes is common in college/grad schools everywhere. I guess that schools for which this is a problem will make policies regarding the behavior, like the law schools of the U of Chicago, Stanford and Harvard.</p>

<p>One of the reasons I am so concerned about this topic has to do with the highly seductive nature of internet/phone connections that can provide so much in terms of information, communication and entertainment. It’s like a mechanical drug. I empathize with your need to leave your blackberry in your desk, MomofWildChild. Now that I have discovered CC, I am very glad that our old laptop doesn’t work if you disconnect the power cord. It just sits on the desk and waits until I can come to it.</p>

<p>Another reason for my concern is that I am contemplating posters’ comments about the changing nature of how education is administered. We parents on CC spend enormous amounts of time trying to figure out the best ways for our children to obtain the higher education that they need to succeed in their future independent lives. Then we spend enormous amounts of money paying for it. Is the system changing? Is a child sitting in a classroom listening to/interacting with a professor going to go the way of the dinosaurs? Will everything be online in the future? University of Illinois has started online this year, with 83 programs including bachelors and masters degrees in things like computer science, English, math, nursing (how do you get an online nursing degree?). They also have certificate programs in education and engineering. What is the point of going to a traditional 4 year program and sitting in classes when your mind is somewhere else.</p>

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<p>I have to laugh at this thread. My kid graduated from law school last spring. Kid did a lot of things on the internet during most classes and did just fine. </p>

<p>I met roommate's parents for the first time at graduation. Roommate's dad is a prof at a top school, though not a law prof. He told me had sat in on a class with his kid. He sat behind my kid during the class and watched all the IMing, email reading, sports score checking, etc. my kid was doing during class. Then my kid got called on and dad chuckled to himself "This kid is going to get NAILED!!!" Then my kid answered the prof's question in a way that demonstrated that kid had actually been following the discussion. </p>

<p>Roommie's dad told me he was STUNNED--so much that he was telling me the story two years later. He told me that he could NEVER have done that--but my kid obviously could. </p>

<p>I think it's a generational thing. There have always been folks who did serious intellectual reading while listening to loud music. I know the person who was first in my law school class did that all the time. I don't think the web surfing is all that different. It's a generational thing. When we use the "gadgets" we aren't able to "multitask" as well as the kids can.</p>

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<p>The only time they are NOT able to multi-task is when they are using their gadgets, surfing etc and WE are talking to them! Our words go unheard....:)</p>

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<p>You will see more and more schools (not just law schools) severely reducing in class use of technology not related to specific assingments. Unfortunately, the techology arrived quicker than our ability to absorb its impact and create an ediquette for use. How many people rudely have phone on in theaters, or talk loudly in public, on planes, trains etc.? Or when you are talking to them are checking their phones. Adults do it all the time and students are more tech savy. We have not dealt with the issue, so we are seeing laws like no phone use while driving etc. A large number of newly minted drivers at D's schools got in fender benders do to texting within a month of driving themselves to school.</p>

<p>The college I teach in, is a no cell phone zone because of the problem, not just in the classroom.</p>

<p>I have require phones off in the class. In spite of people claim they can multi-task, there is evidence that the brain functions are diverted to the phone. The bottom line is students think they have heard everything you have said yet have not. The number of repetitive questions has litterally become burdensome, because students are not paying attention, but think they are. Additionally, since many instructors provide the basic notes ahead of time, they do not think they have to pay attention. So they do not take note, and do not pay attention. Again, on performance evaluations they miss stuff that is in notes, in lectures, and has been answered in class. </p>

<p>I know faculty who are now going to provide notes after the lecture not before, to try and combat this.</p>

<p>Computers in the classroom are often a similar problem. They claim they are taking notes, but may be playing games, shopping, doing homework for their next class, or just surfing. Again performance shows they are not multitasking successfully.</p>

<p>All this it unfortunate, but keep watching increasing rules to deal with adults improper behavior, and don't be surprised when it is the kids who then emulate this behavior at a higher level.</p>

<p>Schools will do what they have always done as the nature of students changes over time. Adapt. So if rules are needed they will be developed. At some point, parents will teach kids proper behavior regarding technology and it will go away. The focus will be on some new thing. Schools are social institutions, which mirror society, sometimes are ahead of it.</p>

<p>I will, as needed, not allow phones or laptops to be used until this ripple goes away. Having been on college campuses for 30+ years I have seen many things come and go. I am more shocked that people are schocked at OP note, than at the behavior itself when it is observable all around us.</p>

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<p>The administration threatened to require attendance at law school classes during my third year. I don't know if they ever followed through. I'd be interested to know if any recent law school grads (or more likely parents thereof) could let us know.</p>

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<p>The waste I see is the opportunities this kid missed. Yes, you can read about criminal procedure in the book and cram from an outline, but my crim pro professor was the head of the DC public defenders office during some of the great Supreme Court cases of the 60s and 70s. Her office personally handled many of the cases you read about in the books. She could tell you about the defendants, the cases, etc. in addition to the actual law. It was a fabulous experience...made the law come alive.</p>

<p>It's one thing to not go to a class because the prof is boring. It's another thing to never go to class period.</p>

<p>Maybe I'm just easily entertained, but I found all but one of my law school classes/professors mentally engaging. Come to think of it, I found my college courses to be engaging also (except for the religion classes)...my one problem was that when the lights would go down, I would start to drowse.</p>

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<p>One thing to think about: One man told me that he didn't like to waste time, so he was always multi-tasking--doing something else when people talked to him. He could do and listen at the same time, after all.</p>

<p>One day his boss came in to talk to him and he continued to multi-task while his boss talked. His boss told him in no uncertain terms that he didn't appreciate it! </p>

<p>When people talk to you, whether it's adult to adult, parent to child, child to parent, teacher to student, student to teacher--people feel diminished when they know you aren't giving them your full attention.</p>