Investment Banking recruitment at Wharton

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Pennsylvania
1

<p>I got into Wharton ED and am committing myself from here on out to getting an investment banking internship during the summer after my junior year. </p>

<p>Generally, what types of credentials are needed to get an internship at a top-level investment bank like Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan or Morgan Stanley.
What about a mid-level bank (think Bank of America, Deutsche, Barclays, Credit Suisse)? </p>

<p>I've heard that GPA isn't as big of a deal too (say above 3.2 or so) if you have prior experience at an investment bank (of any size?) and network really well.</p>

2

<p>Saying GPA isn’t a big deal above 3.2 is pushing it. I’d say that’s true for 3.5+ however - that is the cutoff for most banks. I’ve seen some buyside firms w/ cutoffs of 3.6+ and even 3.7+, but the bulge bracket banks are almost all 3.5 (Barclay’s says 3.2+ I believe). Can you get in with less than the official cutoff? Yes absolutely, but not through the standard OCR resume drop. As you say networking especially if you have good past experience could definitely get you in despite a lower GPA - but keeping 3.5+ will make it much easier. Just think of how competitive recruiting is - banks will have way more solid applicants than spots to fill, so in general, why would they take a chance on a guy with a 3.2?</p>

<p>Avoid getting any grades less than B+, which isn’t <em>that</em> hard if you got in on merit and work reasonably hard [you just need to be average to get a B+], excel in a few classes [best if you excel in finance/accounting], and your GPA will be fine.</p>

3

<p>“Isn’t that hard” seems like an exaggeration.</p>

<p>What is meant by getting in on merit? Really? If you’re in, you’re in.</p>

4

<p>All I mean is that any college with a holistic review process is going to admit students with different levels of pure academic ability. Everyone who is accepted is here for a reason and deserves to be here, but if you got in on the strength of non-academic factors, you will have to work harder to maintain a given GPA than someone who got in purely based on academics. If you’re average among Penn students academically and you work reasonably hard, you will find yourself at least at the median in your classes and getting a B+.</p>

5

<p>I think you need around a 3.5 to be competitive for OCR. Otherwise it all depends on you resume, interview, and other factors.
The thing about getting in on merit, is even the kids who do get on merit can turn out to be mediocre. That is just part of the gamble taken during the admissions process. I know kids who did things like do research and participate in several science fairs who did not excel academically at Penn.
I do think that it is very possible to inflate your GPA at Penn by taking easier classes. For finance, this could be the right course if you are not comparatively a stand out student, but for graduate school it is absolutely crucial that you challenge yourself in your coursework.</p>

6

<p>Yeah, “merit” is a subjective thing, and performance in college varies widely across the student population for a myriad of different reasons of which perceived intellectual/academic acumen (proxy: High School GPA, standardized test scores) is only a single variable among many.</p>

7

<p>Going back to my question, can current Wharton students tell me what types of credentials are needed for students to get hired for summer internships and full-time offers at the major investment banks? </p>

<p>Are we looking at 3.5+ GPA, 3.7+, 3.3+? Do you need to have great leadership and prior work experience?</p>

8

<p>When it comes to GPA, your question has already been answered - you will be much better off if you have a 3.5+, and if you have a GPA lower than that you will not get many interviews (for IBD) through a standard resume drop. If GPA is all you have going for you, then you will need more along the lines of 3.7+, because way more people have 3.5+ GPAs than can get banking jobs. But there is no “formula” or standard credentials for getting a job in banking or any other field. I mean in a perfect world you’d have a sophomore internship at a reputable bank, 3.8+ GPA, and good relationships going into junior year recruiting, but with luck and some good interviewing you could manage to get hired with a 3.6 and no previous finance experience. Getting an interview will be largely dependent on GPA, previous experience, positions on campus could help too - then once you have the interview all bets are off essentially and your performance there is what matters. </p>

<p>Really there’s no point worrying about it right now. Just come here, show up to class and work hard, get involved in some things on campus - all you can really control is your effort. If we told you that you only needed a 3.3 would you slack off and work less hard than if we told you you needed a 3.7? Hopefully not. So there’s really no point asking what GPA you need to have to get a job - just focus on getting the best GPA you can without totally killing yourself.</p>

9

<p>Take my following advice how you will. I’m a wharton student graduating this year. the other posters are making it sound easier than it is. I’m going to one of the “top-level” banks you named as a full-time analyst after graduation. </p>

<p>To get interviews for banking or consulting you need (1) a good GPA, (2) solid work ex, (3) very involved ECs. Do them all- they make college better too. </p>

<p>Regarding GPAs:
Think logically. There are usually 400 kids at Wharton who apply for banking slots (this is not a made up number) and between 14-30 first round interview slots at each bank. So getting a nearly average GPA (3.3-3.5 even) is not good enough. </p>

<p>Assuming you either have work ex and ECs to back up your GPA:
To have as many interviews as you want you’ll need a 3.8-4.0. Even with a 3.8 and solid work ex you’ll get around 80% of your interviews (assuming you drop your resume everywhere). If you have like a 3.5 that number drops dramatically. I don’t know where people come up with this 3.5 number (I heard it as a pre-freshman too) but it’s incorrect.</p>

<p>Feel free to get a 3.5— don’t even feel bad about it! It’s solid. But if you want to be assured a job (assuming you interview well and have work ex / internships) you need a 3.8, or at the very least a 3.7 (even that will dramatically decrease your number of interviews) </p>

<p>I’d be surprised if the average GPA for goldman analysts was significantly higher than the average GPA of bank of america analysts. The differentiation between a good bank and a medium -but also Good bank (think Goldman vs Bank of America) comes into play in the interview stage when GPA isn’t as relevant anymore and finance intuition / interests / socialness matters more. This is because the same kids get first round interviews everywhere, so you’ll see those 3.8 kids with 30-40 interviews and the 3.6 kids with much, much less. </p>

<p>If you work hard Wharton is easy even with hard classes. There’s no reason not to do well if you try.</p>

10

<p>Son, it’s high time you lose this attitude that brand name prestige of a company or entity means everything.</p>

<p>I understand why you think the way you do. I’ve been there, trust me. Senior year of high school? Oh man, brand name totally mattered for what college I got into. And hey, like you, I got into Penn ED. It’s pretty easy to see that going to a school like Penn makes it easier to get a job in investment banking.</p>

<p>However, it’s time for this prestige-whoring attitude to end. Do you know why?</p>

<p>You are going to be doing the same work as an analyst or associate at any investment bank and private equity shop.</p>

<p>Now, let’s say you really bust your butt and just work super hard to keep up a 3.9 GPA in Wharton, be a lead on the Wharton Investment and Trading Group’s TMT team to practice your modeling skills, do a ton of pitch and case competitions, etc. Now you’re summering at Goldman Sachs, working 100 hours a week. You get that offer, do that for two years, switch over to KKR as a pre-MBA associate, get kicked out after two years and go to HBS / GSB.</p>

<p>Now what? Is your life any better having done GS -> KKR -> HBS than Cowen -> arbitrary middle market PE -> Tuck?</p>

<p>It’s not.</p>

<p>I’m sorry if this post came off as harsh. What I want you to understand is that when you arrive at Wharton, there are going to be a ton of kids like you that want to be the best. They got into Wharton! They were at the top of their high school! And now it’s Goldman Sachs or bust. It’s PE megafund or bust. And believe me, they’ll take on way too much stress trying.</p>

<p>One of my fraternity brothers summered at Houlihan Lokey’s Chicago office, restructuring desk. Know how much he got paid? Same amount as all investment banking interns in NYC. Know how much his full-time offer pays? Same amount as all investment banking analysits in NYC.</p>

<p>Know how many hours he works? 70 hours per week.</p>

<p>So yes, he’s at a middle-market investment bank (perish the thought), but he gets paid the same, has a better lifestyle, and lives in a cheaper city, meaning he gets to keep more of his money. And what’s important — he’s happy. He didn’t kill himself academically at Penn. He did well, but he found a good balance.</p>

<p>Brand name of university is important because it leads to great jobs. Brand name of occupation is way less important. You’re at the end. Stop stressing.</p>

<p>And by the way, those banks you mentioned aren’t “mid-level” banks. Stop being pretentious.</p>

11

<p>What happens to all the “average” students at Wharton after graduation (3.3-3.5 Gpa) Do most “average” Wharton students still get IB offers at MM/Botiques? Or are they forced to go into other lower prestigious jobs?</p>

12

<p>I honestly don’t get this obsession with investment banking, especially since you haven’t even arrived at Wharton yet. People here obsess over the prestige of Goldman Sachs but I don’t think most people actually enjoy/would enjoy working there. The hours are grueling and the work itself is monotonous and unenlightening. A lot of people do investment banking internships over the summer and then do OCR for consulting in the fall.</p>

13

<p>Once you got into campus, go to Career Services, They can help you better…
In the mean time, read the website’s resources; you’ll find many of your answers there:
[Career</a> Services at the University of Pennsylvania](<a href=“http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/]Career”>http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/)</p>

14

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<p>Yes. Please refer to my post / rant above.</p>

15

<p>Im asking about average students at wharton who dont make it into IB. about 29% of grads go into IB jobs, this figure seems pretty low and is on par with many other b-schools. Dont most whartonites want to go into IB?
for comparison, UVA Mcintire sends 31% into IB.
So whats all the fuss about Wharton? I know they send more to PE and top BBs than UVA, but only the very top students in Wharton land those jobs, so for most students whats the advantage of Wharton over UVA/Ross?</p>

16

<p>As an undergraduate, the first advantage would be in the classroom - meaning the opportunity to study under Wharton’s esteemed faculty which is at the top of the food chain (so to speak) in their fields across a breadth of disciplines under the business umbrella. Though known as a finance powerhouse, Wharton is a dominant academic player in nearly every business discipline possible, and thus, a student at Wharton will get a broad-based education with virtually no weak-links. Now, how valuable this is relative to opportunities at other ugrad b-schools is subjective.</p>

<p>Additionally, there is the opportunity to join the Penn and Wharton alumni networks. That’s a big up as well considering the stature of Wharton’s MBA program.</p>

<p>But, if you are talking about placement, it’s important to consider that just because percentages of a class going into a certain area is comparable across schools does not mean that those students are going to the same firms, just the same industries. If you look at the career survey reports for undergrads at Wharton vs. McIntire, for example, I imagine you’ll see Wharton sends greater numbers to the more “prestigious” firms in IB and Consulting, as well as some of the big names in Tech. That is the advantage (but how important is prestige?).</p>

<p>As far as all the “average” Wharton students, they probably go into less prestigious firms. But many students (including the those near the top) may indeed decide to go into another space, maybe in marketing or strategy or operations. And they don’t necessarily do so as a last resort. Maybe, like myself, they had no interest in IB, but dreamed of working for someone like Procter & Gamble or Pepsico or becoming part of a start-up? There are many pathways into Wharton and many more pathways out.</p>

17

<p>What about consulting firms like McKinsey, Bain, or Boston Consulting? What about less name-brand firms? I didn’t really consider consulting yet until now until you all brought it up. Is it just as hard (or even harder)? I’d probably go into consulting for financial firms, like private equity or M&A stuff. </p>

<p>Also, I promise I’m not one of “those kids” who just heard about the big bonuses and don’t even know what Ibanking is. I’ve always found mergers/acquisitions interesting, though I’d definitely be open to working in debt and/or equity deals as well.</p>

18

<p>I get your points but lets be honest, many/most ppl in Wharton are gunning for BB IBD/MBB consulting jobs and only the top wharton students land those jobs…
My question is, most “average” students at Wharton would be above average at many other targets/semi targets, and these other schools all place students regularly at BBs/MBB.
So, arent the average (3.3) students at wharton better off going to uva/ross/nd and being at the top of their classes?? Surely a 3.7+ from ross is better than a 3.3 at Wharton. Not to mention that on campus recruiting (a major reason people choose to attend wharton) only helps those with top gpas/ecs (many firms have a 3.5 cutoff)
i have no affiliation with any of these schools Im just trying to figure how all this works</p>

19

<p>I get your points but lets be honest, many/most ppl in Wharton are gunning for BB IBD/MBB consulting jobs and only the top wharton students land those jobs…
My question is, most “average” students at Wharton would be above average at many other targets/semi targets, and these other schools all place students regularly at BBs/MBB.
So, arent the average (3.3) students at wharton better off going to uva/ross/nd and being at the top of their classes?? Surely a 3.7+ from ross is better than a 3.3 at Wharton. Not to mention that on campus recruiting (a major reason people choose to attend wharton) only helps those with top gpas/ecs (many firms have a 3.5 cutoff)
i have no affiliation with any of these schools Im just trying to figure how all this works</p>

20

<p>There’s a lot of moving pieces at play there. If an “average” Wharton student is instead at UVA/Ross/Notre Dame, maybe they will be at the top of the class (no guarantee, of course) and if they are then they would be in good position to score an offer for a BB IBD/MBB job. </p>

<p>The flip side, however, is that there are also less slots being filled at the top firms from those schools relative to Wharton/Penn and other Ivies. The most respected, sought-after firms are going to pull more deeply from Wharton and Penn (let’s not forget there are College students and Engineers getting IB and Consulting gigs as well), so, in a way, being at Wharton increases your odds by adding slots in the top-tier. Even with a high GPA at another school, the benefit to the average Wharton student is minute if only four people from UVA (strictly speaking hypothetically - I haven’t looked at their career surveys) are going to wind up at Goldman Sachs. </p>

<p>At every school, there will always be more qualified people to fill the job than there are people chosen. That’s just how it goes. No matter what school you attend, there is no guarantee that you will get a certain job with a certain firm after graduating. But, some schools will offer increased chances/opportunity to reach a certain job with a certain company, and that is why people attend: to increase their chances.</p>