Invitation

Colleges and Universities A-Z Grinnell College
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<p>SAT scores are highly correlated with wealth, but I also firmly believe that you ought to be able to use them to compare students from similar backgrounds.</p>

<p>A good student who studies for the writing section of the test can get a good or excellent score by first reviewing rules of grammar. You can potentially raise your score significantly by reviewing basics such as when to use “whom” and when to use “who”. However, there’s a limit to how much you can learn on your own while preparing for the test. A Bates college professor wrote on the NYT Education blog recently that some students enrolling at Bates do not know when to use a comma and when to use a period. He argues that this is the problem with not requiring the SATs.</p>

<p>Grumpyoldman: We will pay full tuition- with great difficulty (mostly due to the high cost of housing in California). We are right at the cut-off in terms of need, and we’ve also blown through savings (though we have not touched my daughter’s college fund) during years of unemployment. If some of my money is being used for scholarships for other students, then part of the full tuition money should be considered a donation, and we should get a tax break for it. That would make it much easier to pay when my daughter’s college fund runs dry after 4 or 5 semesters. </p>

<p>Yes, I resent that tuition is going up at Grinnell, supposedly to pay for the scholarships that my daughter would have had a good chance of receiving if she had attended a different, less rigorous high school (especially considering that she has above average SAT scores for this group of students).</p>

<p>Of course, I am in favor of colleges giving financial aid, and I don’t have a problem with merit scholarships on principle (though I don’t think they are necessarily given out fairly). But we are debating between sending my daughter to a public institution or a private one, because money is tight. We worry about joblessness in the future. If tuition is being increased to pay for scholarships, that could be the difference between sending our daughter to Grinnell (who would be expected to pay full tuition if admitted) or sending her to a public school, and that’s simply not right.</p>

<p>Also, grumpyoldman, I’ll show you diversity, at least among the upper middle class. Come to my daughter’s high school, and you will meet 2300+ 3.8+ students who have been raised bilingually by immigrant parents in Chinese, Korean, and a host of other languages. (They are also extremely accomplished in terms of extra-curricular activities.) A few are even immigrants themselves. One of my daughter’s friends is the child of (black) immigrants from Africa. We also have a lot of Hispanic students, some of them born abroad. I look at all the extremely bright, accomplished, hard-working kids at my daughter’s high school, some of whom received their rejections from Cal Tech and Wash U yesterday and today, and, yes, I wonder why colleges feel they need to recruit students from abroad. With so many immigrants and children of immigrants among us, all of whom have parents paying taxes in the US (even if they are illegal), why do we need to look abroad for 10% of our college students?</p>

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<p>@nosering I prefer to pay for a college for my child that has students raised in other countries, but to each his own, you do not have to if you disagree. The reason is that many Americans think the US is the center of the universe, and the diversity that these foreign-born-raised students bring to the student body is enriching for my child and part of what I pay for. @nosering, if you think your financial aid should take into account the fact that the cost-of-living is higher in CA, then I agree, but it should also take into account the cost of my snowplow which is necessary to live in Ohio…:)</p>

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<p>My son was a history major. Having international students in class definitely enriched his experience.</p>

144

<p>How do the other applicants know about the early write unless they’re on CC? That’s where I heard about it and I never mentioned it to my son until he got the letter. Is the college telling all applicants about this? I doubt any of the other students knew who got the early writes when everyone came to campus to start the school year.</p>

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<p>Basically, students know about early writes the same way they know about anything - they talk. Schools that send student routinely to top schools have students who have gotten them in the past, so it is a known thing in many schools. Plus, top-notch guidance counselors tell students they exist. My guidance counselor told our class and that was good reason not to slack off senior year because back then they often asked for a current grade report before issuing the letter. That was 30 years ago - long before the common app and mid-year grade reporting.</p>

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<p>There’s also a Facebook page where it is known to 368 people who applied this year.</p>

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<p>This admissions stuff just doesn’t carry over onto the campus. First of all, the students live in mixed year dorms, so trust me, these upper class students aren’t asking the first-years about their stats or their admissions info… If any first-year comes onto campus prepared to brag or trade SAT scores or what have you, they will be quickly disabused of that attitude. I still remember that phrase someone used a while ago here on CC that Grinnellians have a “come as you are” attitude about each other. Remember that sense of community that Opaline noticed?..</p>

<p>Anyway, don’t think that just because Grinnell is now openly courting high-stats kids that there aren’t an abundance of high stat, brilliant kids already on campus. There are plenty of students that turned down “more selective” schools to attend Grinnell, and plenty of stratosphere SAT scores already seated in the classroom. What the school now is doing is being more strategic and assertive in its overall admissions recruiting efforts than it has been in the past, and yes, increase overall averages in the meantime – how is this different than just about any other school out there? </p>

<p>All of these efforts are supportive of its mission: to remain a school that is “excellent, accessible and diverse.” In my experience, this is the education and campus environment that my (very brilliant if I do say so myself) son is receiving at Grinnell!</p>

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<p>Nosering, tuition isn’t being increased only “to give out scholarships.” Grinnell’s tuition hike is in line with the average raise around the country. Moreover, Grinnell is doing a variety of things, including prudent cost-cutting at the school and increasing alumni donations, to create a more sustainable economic future than relying so heavily on funding from an endowment whose growth has largely been investment-driven.</p>

<p>When people turn up their noses at spending money on bringing kids to campus or other activities that might seem wasteful to them, remember that this is all part of a bigger financial management picture – money still needs to be spent, and what might seem frivolous to some is termed an investment by others.</p>

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<p>agree with SDonCC</p>

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<p>I am well aware SDonCC that Grinnell’s tuition is now in line with other comparable schools across the country. That’s my whole point. The economic argument in favor of Grinnell for full paying students (who do not receive merit scholarships) no longer exists. The fact that tuition has increased significantly the same year the administration changed the scholarship program makes it appear that the two decisions are related.</p>

<p>My daughter applied to Grinnell for several reasons, including that it is in an excellent school where she thinks (but is not certain) she will be admitted. She also likes the idea of attending a school that has a large endowment. The lower tuition was definitely an attraction, as it seemed she would be able to save $20K over four years compared with comparable schools. For a student who is probably going to have to take out $20K to $50K in loans to finish college (depending on how much we can help her at that point), the lower tuition at Grinnell would have been a big plus in favor of attending Grinnell, if admitted. </p>

<p>The real reason why colleges are admitting so many foreign students is to prepare for the day when the population of 18 year olds in the US declines dramatically. Maybe students have begun to expect foreigners on campus to enrich their college experience, but that’s not the original reason why recruitment of foreigners began. Colleges (not just Grinnell) are worried about future enrollment and being able to keep up standards of admission.</p>

<p>Having grown up in NYC and having lived in California as an adult, I can well understand that college students value the presence of foreigners on campus. My argument is that the children of immigrants bring diversity to campus, too. I remember my ninth grade Chinese classmate talking about her immigrant parents’ experiences during the time we studied the 1949 Chinese revolution. As a child growing up in NYC, I had a 4th grade classmate who talked in class about her immigrant grandmother’s experience as a survivor of the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire in 1911. My daughter just talked this weekend about a friend who is dreading returning to a parent’s ancestral village in China for a visit this summer, because the facilities are extremely primitive in the countryside. I know immigrants from lots of countries: Korea, China, Iran, Israel, India, Pakistan, Turkey, England, Germany, and many others. The presence of their children in my daughter’s classrooms over the years has been an enriching experience for everyone.</p>

<p>In the effort to bring lots of students to the US from China, let’s not forget that many first generation Asian American students in this country feel they are facing barriers in entry to top colleges. You cannot tell me that the top schools, all of which seem to enroll 16% Asian students, don’t have quotas for them. Let’s not forget that it has become ridiculously difficult (and essentially a lottery system) to get admitted, not only to top 10 universities and LACs, but many less competitive schools, too.</p>

<p>Whoever said that colleges are a business, and that they are looking out for themselves, was right on the mark.</p>

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<p>“Whoever said that colleges are a business, and that they are looking out for themselves, was right on the mark.”</p>

<p>I am the one who said it, but I did not mean it as a negative; I meant it as a positive. Anyone or anything that does an action not understanding or taking into account the consequences, i.e., the return, is not not very smart. This implicit idea that colleges should be “looking” out for others makes no sense to me. Colleges, like families, should be taking actions that ensure their survival, continued growth and improvement. </p>

<p>Families are businesses too; whether one wants to accept that fact or not is another issue. Last time I checked, I did not find one family not looking out for itself, and, I dare say the ones that did not essentially committed suicide by not doing just that. Self-interest should not be confused with selfish.</p>

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<p>@nosering - thanks for explaining to those of us from flyover states what it’s like to grow up with first generation friends; since we go to ho-hum schools and don’t have the high cost of living you have, these are things you assume we are not familiar with. If Grinnell is not turning out to be the cheap safety school you thought it would be, there are actually bunches of small liberal arts schools that might give your daughter most - if not all - of tuition. Good luck!</p>

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<p>Our DS attends a selective-enrollment HS with some ethnic and economic diversity. (About 20% kids receive some financial aid.) This HS’s Navigance stats clearly demonstrate a “donut”, where lower scored kids are gaining admittance to “Top 20” highly-selective schools despite lower scores/GPA than other kids declined admittance at same school. Few if any Legacies here to skew Navigance, and most white middle-class kids still enroll at nearby public universities. Many URMs are nonetheless accepted at those highly-selective schools (like Grinnell) even though they’re ranked mid-class. DS’ HS college guidance counselor confirmed this.</p>

<p>At highly-selective schools, a relatively strong URM candidate has an excellent chance at both admittance and scholarship, even if they’re likely in the “25% Percentile” of incoming class, even if same profile wouldn’t work for a white female student.</p>

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<p>I know my son never considered Grinnell to be a safety school for him and was very pleasantly surprised by the early write and scholarship, “No way!” is what he said when he opened the letter. We made sure he had safer schools on his list. I learned about that from CC. The 2 he applied to were EA, so he had the security of 2 in hand very early with scholarships.</p>

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<p>Grumpyoldman: I am very surprised you seem unwilling to advocate for American kids to be admitted to American schools, or that it doesn’t trouble you that it might be harder for a Californian or a New Yorker to be admitted to a given college than someone from Alaska. Why do you hate Californians and New Yorkers so much? (Your snide comment says it all.) Or, is it just the Asian kids (mostly children of immigrants) from high population states like California whose admissions you don’t care about?</p>

<p>I never said Grinnell was a safety school for my daughter. Many people on this thread seem to misunderstand me. I said it is an excellent school where my daughter thinks she has a good chance of admission. When we went over the Naviance graphs, we concluded that her statistics put her at the high end of those admitted from her high school, but she is not the best student ever admitted. Given that she has very strong extra-curricular activities, took a rigorous schedule, and is well liked by teachers, we figured we could trust the Naviance graph. We considered Grinnell a “likely” for her. She has applied to one other “likely” school, too. But if not admitted to one of her dream schools, she might wind up at a public school. She will have to decide if it’s worth it to her to go into debt for the last year or so of college to attend a private school that was on her likely list (assuming she is admitted to one of them). </p>

<p>All I am saying is that if Grinnell had retained its old tuition structure with lower tuition than all the other schools, my daughter would have definitely chosen it over her other “likely” school and been more likely to choose it over a UC. She might have even chosen it over a dream school once she crunched the numbers.</p>

<p>My daughter has already decided that she will go to a public university rather than pay for one of her safety schools. She now feels that the applications to her private safety schools were a waste of time and money and that the public schools should have been her only safety schools. </p>

<p>Higgins2013: Relatively speaking, the white kids are not the ones suffering in college admissions these days. At Stuyvesant HS in NYC, 70% of the students are Asian. At my daughter’s high school in California, the students enrolled in the toughest AP classes and the college level math classes are almost all Asian. I bet that if the elite colleges ignored race in admissions decisions, the Ivies, Ivy equivalent schools, and the top 10 LACs would enroll many more Asian students at the expense, not only of black and Hispanic students, but of white students, too. </p>

<p>I have no wish to continue this conversation. Grumpyoldman, please feel free to post another snide comment and get the last word over me.</p>

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<p>nosering–if you do tune back in, I hope for the very best admissions results for your daughter.</p>

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<p>nosering, I realize you’d rather opt out of this thread at this point (and I’m sorry for that because I think you’ve make some very valid points here), but I’m wondering if your DD has received any information from these private safety schools regarding merit aid. Before ruling them out, doesn’t it make sense to see what the net costs of attending might be? </p>

<p>Although Grinnell might expect your family to pay full freight (and if they raise tuition, hopefully they’ll adjust their expectations for your family accordingly), another school, where your daughter falls closer to the 75th percentile stats-wise, might be willing to award her enough to make the price of attending on par with one of the UC schools she’s considering.</p>

<p>Grinnell appears to get quite a few applicants from CA (only IA and IL provided more freshmen last year); here’s hoping your daughter picked a few safeties from the South or upper New England, where they’d probably love to get a few more great kids from the Golden State.</p>

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<p>I agree with everything grumpyoldman says and we pay full tuition, are from California, and my daughter is graduating this year. I love Grinnell and applaud them for all they do. The academic rigor and excellence of student body kept my daughter challenged every bit of the way. I am one of the lone conservative voices at Grinnell…have truly come to the conclusion that not everyone needs a very expensive LAC education to be successful in life. The wealthy parents and the parents of very low income families have nothing to worry about…their kids will get the very expensive LAC education. It is the middle class students that are truly getting the short end in this situation. If you can afford it or if you can get aid or merit money to cover the costs, then go for it. Do not go into debt. There are many fine schools out there. Grinnell is one of the best, I agree, but in life we can not always get everything we want. I know we are blessed to send our daughter there but we too have made many sacrifices to send her there and every penny was worth it!!</p>

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<p>To the best our knowledge, did any international applicants receive the invitation?</p>

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<p>I didn’t see any at the event. But that doesn’t necessarily mean anything: traveling to the US may be too expensive for most internationals to do at short notice.</p>