<p>You should absolutely look into your state universities with ABET accredited engineering programs and private engineering schools which offer significant merit aid. It is important to keep the costs manageable and to realize that any ABET accredited engineering degree is going to be a good stepping stone for an engineering career.</p>
<p>@Miles Perrara, yours is a bit of a different story. Your son’s education was subsidized through both merit aid and need-based financial aid. Many schools, including all of the Ivys, Stanford, Tufts, and MIT offer no merit aid.</p>
<p>The calculation of value is VERY different depending on a student’s Expected Family Contribution. That’s how Princeton can be on the best buy list every year. It certainly is not for a family with a high EFC.</p>
<p>Note that Harvey Mudd does have merit scholarships, though it does not say how many or how large.
<a href=“Merit-Based Scholarships | Harvey Mudd College”>https://www.hmc.edu/admission/afford/scholarships-and-grants/merit-based-scholarships/</a>
However, if Harvey Mudd is not affordable at list price or only on need-based aid, then it becomes even more of a reach, since getting the merit scholarship will be harder than just getting admission.</p>
<p>That information can be found in section H of a school’s Common Data Set (CDS). Last year Mudd determined that 92 of 198 entering freshmen demonstrated no financial need. Of those, merit aid averaging just over $8k was awarded to 35 students.</p>
<p>Very helpful information @eyemgh </p>
<p>If it is the small school atmosphere that is appealing to her she could consider Olin, at half tuition for all. Another engineering school with a liberal arts component.</p>
<p>The whole idea of adjusting your efforts because you are aiming ‘lower’ so it is ‘for nothing’ leave a very bad taste in my mouth I don’t feel quite up to addressing at this hour.</p>
<p>If your family can comfortably afford 60k/yr, then enjoy! If it involves going into significant debt, then it’s not worth it. FWIW, all the senior execs (Pres, VPs, Directors, Senior Mgrs) in my multinational company have engineering degrees from flagship State U. </p>
<p>There are plenty of very good public and private colleges that will cost you less than, to much less than, 60K a year. Many of the private colleges will play kind of shell game and set their tuition and fees a little on the high side and then be generous with their merit aid. As eyemgh alluded to; check out each school’s common data set to see how many of their students are on some kind of aid, including merit aid. Sounds like your D would be a sought after student and from what I can see that would factor into many school’s merit aid determination. You will then have to figure the money side of things out as a family (and I definitely wouldn’t drain all your savings).</p>
<p>An aside: Be realistic about dream schools. For many students, it is hard for that school to live up to one’s dreams. It still may be the best fit of a school, but the dream may have to change a little. </p>
<p>Another aside: My D was also interested in Harvey Mudd and we had heard many good things about the school. After visiting it I was concerned that it’s quirkieness that looks cool at first might become a little too much before the end of the 4 years. So, if you are really interested in that school, I highly recommend you be sure to visit it.</p>
<p>We loved HMC after visiting, but I must say that I was thankful when my son was put on the wait list, as it made it easier to decide on a school where our COA was much more reasonable. I did want to recommend looking carefully at the different merit scholarships Mudd has. The one for about $10,000 is purely stats based, so you will know ahead of time if you qualify. Then there are small merit amounts tied to NMS (a few thousand) and then there are a handful of full ride scholarships for individuals underrepresented in engineering. Interestingly, this includes women in engineering. This was at least true last year when we applied. If you’re interested, I would recommend attending their HMC day in the summer - a full day on the campus. Good luck to you. </p>
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<p>I have a hard time believing that the “quality of life” at elite instititions would be better. These schools are generally much more competitive/cut-throat, and IMHO, that tends to eat away at quality of life. Personally, I think the best quality of life can be found at schools with a broader mix of academic abilities, with a subset of high performing students (for those who like being surrounded by students with high academic drive). At elite universities, you don’t have that academic diversity… you’re just constantly surrounded by high-strung, stressed out students, 24/7. </p>
<p>Again, just my opinion of course. To answer the OP’s question, I think the question of whether or not 60k is too much more a degree depends on what you value in a college education… if you’re going strictly by the numbers and looking at ROI, then no, it’s not worth it. If there are non-academic related qualities about the school that your daughter finds appealing, then it may be worth the extra cost if that means keeping her motivated.</p>
<p>Slightly off topic, but If CS is her thing and you are a California resident, she should look at Cal Poly too. Why isn’t it listed among the “elites” by USNWR? Because they don’t have doctoral programs. Apple hires more employees from Poly than any other school. It has also sneakily become the most difficult public admit in CA for its best engineering majors, ME, Aero, BME and CS. Overall, all majors included, only UCB and UCLA are more selective. Plus, SLO is an idyllic town. </p>
<p>If rankings are important to you, and I’d say always take them with a big grain of salt, US News ranks Cal Poly 4th for CS at schools that don’t offer PhD, tied with…drumroll please…Harvey Mudd.</p>
<p>@fractalmstr, Just relating my experience. I find that the value of the culture and environment is often under-rated in a decision on engineering. I also find that Engineering is by-and-large considered not to be a creative enterprise, except for the Steve Jobs, Elon Musks, and (for some) Bill Gates’ of the world. With certain perspectives, engineering is one of the most creative of all endeavors, since one learns to master control over so many variables in one’s surroundings.</p>
<p>Cutthroat competition may be found in pre-med, I don’t know. In my experience it is not at all found at elite engineering institutions, generally or specifically (speaking to alumni from specific schools). Competition is more about personal bests. The sense of wonder, ability to work on world-class problems with world-class professors and fellow students-- that is more concentrated in a more “elite” institution. It fundamentally changes the perspective and thinking process of the student. If you have not experienced it, you can easily discount it. It is difficult to put a price tag on it.</p>
<p>You can go to the neighborhood park, ride the merry-go-round, and have a truly enjoyable day. Is it worth it to fly to Orlando and spend a day and rice of admission at Disneyworld? If you are out for an amusing day, both accomplish the same goal. You will not be a better person, or accomplish more in life, whichever way you go; but your perspective and excitement may be changed. In fact it is more likely leadership in your organization went to the park last year than it is that they went to Disneyworld- there are simply more neighborhood parks, and they hold more people each year, than Disneyworld. The decision on value comes down to disposable income (is $60K a lot to your budget?) and what experience you want.</p>
<p>I think actual engineers view their work as creative rather then a workhorse trade. Interesting that you mention Jobs and Gates who dropped out of college and Disney who dropped out of high school. And then there is Dean Kamen who also did not graduate from the pedestrian WPI. Just imagine what they could have they could have accomplished if they had complete elite experience surrounded by world class professors working on world class problems.</p>
<p>@gearmom, I am not sure of your point, but I sense it is not very generous towards me, my opinion, or my point of view.</p>
<p>Gates, with the support of his venture capitalist father and the rest of his family, was on a great trajectory. No doubt the stimulating environment of Harvard furthered his resolve to move along with his career. My understanding is that Jobs and Wozniak found this stimulating creative environment in the special interest groups (what now have become “Meetup” groups) they attended- it doesn’t have to be at an institution of higher learning where this is found. Worcester is not pedestrian in everybody’s book, even if it is in yours.</p>
<p>I mention Disneyworld, not Disney- to my knowledge he was not an engineer.</p>
<p>I believe the sense of wonder and imagination can be heightened when in a place that concentrates those involved in and valuing such traits. Wherever they can be found, it will not be while looking at $-for-degree calculations. As I said, everyone has different values, and everyone has different means. My point is that, when assessing value, also consider the intangibles. You may find that the best quality of life is molded is some of the more elite institutions.</p>
<p>@ItsJustSchool, the problem with your inference is that you link those qualities to a schools rank. I don’t think there’s any evidence to suggest it’s a tight correlation. In fact, there are plenty of “elite” engineering programs where the undergraduate student experience is famously miserable.</p>
<p>Then there’s the rabbit hole that is the concept of “elite” in the first place. Many of the “top” programs have huge classes, many ESL TAs and limited lab exposure for undergrads. Where do their reputations come from? Doctoral research.</p>
<p>I can’t state this loudly enough, in assessing fit it is important to understand what the UNDERGRADUATE experience will be like.</p>
<p>@eyemgh, I did use the term “top tier”, but did not discuss any external rankings. I could see how one could infer the other. My true meaning is highly respected, highly effective, and attracting of the most “engineer-oriented” professors and teachers.</p>
<p>My real point was that some of the postings by you and others do mention the intangibles, and I wanted to add my voice to that message that seemed to be in danger of being drowned out by those who imply that the only metric is the practical, ROI, calculation.</p>
<p>Some may choose fractional jet ownership for a more efficient travel experience with their disposable income. I am reinforcing that Engineering is a creative field, not a trade apprenticeship, and that the undergraduate experience can matter a great deal in how one turns out. If one has the disposable income, there is value in spending some of it on a more expensive undergraduate engineering experience.</p>
<p>Let’s add in Larry Ellison and Michael Dell who went to state schools and dropped out it.</p>
<p>You may also find that the best quality of life is not always found at elite institutions. That it can be rather miserable. If you have that rare gift to change the world then you will succeed regardless. I think this is a very serious issue when so many people live with so much debt. The OP said that the dream school would wipe out family savings. How do you recover from that when you are in your fifties? </p>
<p>@ItsJustSchool I found your opinion to be a bit offensive. Do you think that people view engineering degrees at non-elite universities as trade school apprenticeships? Do you think by choosing a school that is not elite the intention is to become a workhorse drone? I have been to both types of schools and did not find it vastly different. I’ve seen a spectrum of happiness, inspiration and success at both. YMMV</p>
<p>Okay, perhaps we disagree. That is fine. I am stating my opinion. The quality of life at any institution may or may not be great. I have found that the quality of life <em>molded</em>, by affecting the perspective and thinking process of those who attend, has been positive. I am encouraging others to apply that to their own lives and wonder, and answer for themselves, whether it is true in their experience. I am not saying studying anywhere provides a good or bad quality of life at the time.</p>
<p>I think school selection is a serious issue with regards to debt as well. I am advocating that for those who can afford it, there is real intangible value in paying lots of money for a better cultural fit.</p>
<p>You may also want to include Mark Zuckerberg and Elizabeth Holmes as famous dropouts. There are many people who drop out of school. May your child be one of them- it may not even matter what school they drop out from. I really don’t think the argument is germane for most reading these forums.</p>
<p>Thank you everyone for valuable information. Thank you @eyemgh for reminding me that Cal Poly San Luis Obispo is a school to consider. It just has this Cal State flavor that I am not sure about, but I heard great things about this school before so I will do my research. D liked Mudd over Caltech when we visited. She likes that mixture of STEM and humanity that school offers. </p>
<p>@ItsJustSchool I do not believe in or have a disposable income for an “education for education’s sake”. I understand and completely agree with an intangible side of big names schools and it is something to consider. </p>
<p>Our older son graduated from Cal State school. His stats were much lower than our D. His education did not cost us much, so instead we helped him with the down payment on his fist house. </p>