<p>150k is nothing to sneeze at. But you have to consider the costs: many years of school, loads of debt, long hours, etc. So, both of what you hear is true. Salaries are decreasing. And the avg. pay for a primary care physician is probably around 140-150,000.</p>
<p>Have to agree with purplegirl here. It's only getting worse. Sure $150,000 is not a bad salary for a regular 9-5 job, but in general medicine (Internal medicine or family practice) you have to work very hard to make that... more like 7-7 with on call. Also remember that you only make that 7-8 years out from college, and in some cases with debt of $150,000. You will have night call and be answering phone calls all the time depending on the type of practice. Most general internal medicine practices consist of many geriatric patients, making them very Medicare heavy. This means that you are at the total whim of the government budget with regard to your reimbursement. For those of you unfamiliar with this, it means that if you participate with the Medicare program, you cannot EVER bill patients more than Medicare allows. (it's complicated but if you are a non participating doctor, under certain circumstances you can charge 25% more... for an office visit that's about $10 more and for a new patient about $25 more). Medicare fees are adjusted downward every year based on the budgetary decisions of congress. The actual fees you will receive have no relationship to the value of the service. Well actually there is a "relative value" scale where every medical service receives a value compared to 1 which determines how reimbursement is calculated. But the actual multiplier which determines how much you get for an office visit or a colonoscopy depends on how much Congress allots to the program, and it is going to continue to decrease every year. In medical practice you are in the unenviable position of having to pay increased malpractice, increased wages to staff (including health insurance), increased office rent, and increased cost for supplies, while your fees go down. No other business could successfully operate in such an environment. Over the last 10 years Doctors have dramatically increased their volume to compensate, but it's like running on a treadmill.. at some point you reach maximum speed. That's close to where we are now. And I agree, the whole thing is going to eventually collapse. </p>
<p>If you think working for Kaiser is going to be easy time, forget it. You trade some corporate security and not having to worry about running your own practice for total lack of flexibility and control. I know people that have done this route. It means that the number of patients you see per hour is dictated by them, and if you fall short of their quota, you get fired. In addition if you want to leave an hour early to see your kid's soccer game, you will have to apply for permission, and time off must be strictly accounted for.. there's no flexibility. One of the last few things that is good about being a Doctor (in my mind) is having the flexibility of taking an afternoon off here and there if I need to do something. </p>
<p>I spoke before about how specialists can certainly make alot more than general docs. We don't work any less though. And there are growing numbers of doctors that make a good living by specializing in areas that are not controlled by insurance... cosmetic dermatology and cosmetic plastic surgery.<br>
I won't say negative things about these specialties, and they certainly can be very lucrative, but I think most who dream of being a Doctor aren't thinking about how someday they will help healthy people look more beautiful. If that's for you, great. You will still work hard for your money, and you deserve it. </p>
<p>My advice.... if you are going to graduate with a lot of debt.. you shouldn't consider the lower paying specialties like Family Practice, Internal Medicine, or Pediatrics. You will never get ahead financially. It's sad, but that's the reality. If you do want general Medicine, you should strongly consider practicing in areas where the cost of living is low and there is little managed care penetration (usually smaller cities, south and midwest rather than Northeast). </p>
<p>Also just to put the $150,000 in perspective. That's less than what a first year law associate (right out of law school) makes at a corporate firm in NYC. Most MBA's would make more than that in finance first year out.
And both the lawyers and MBA's will probably double their income in the first 5 years out. The internist will NEVER make more than $150,000-$175,000 unless he adds a lab or X ray services or something else that generates income. If you are living in the NYC metro area $150,000 will make you feel very poor around the other people in your social strata... nobody else you socialize with or as educated as you will work as hard and make as little money. </p>
<p>I'm sorry to be so negative, but I think that in the past people just went blindly into Medicine and assumed they would be successful and happy.
That can still be true, but you can't go into it with blinders on.</p>
<p>I did the Kaiser thing for awhile. Each Permanente Medical Group is different (as opposed to the Kaiser, insurance piece). As far as i know, if and when you make partner, you won't be fired. On the other hand, i gave up my partnership and I went private so I could </p>
<p>"be in a position to keep it as good as it can be, at least in my little neck of the woods."</p>
<p>as I said above.</p>
<p>When I read RDS248 joke about the plumber and the doctor made me think about a TRUE story about a pulmonary medicine doctor I know. Earlier this year,he did a bronchoscopy and cleaned the secretions out of a patient's lung; Medicare pays about $150. The next day his office sewer was blocked, and the sewer cleaner cleaned the sewer using his tools which included a scope. The sewer cleaner charged $325. This would be funny if it was not a true story.</p>
<p>I know becoming a physician is worth it for me. I do realize that the money will never be as great as many other careers, and I will constantly have to deal with ornery patients, abuses of the system, and corrupt insurance companies and HMO's. At the risk of sounding corny, finances aren't even on my list of reasons for going into medicine. Medicine needs to be a calling. I know I have this calling, and that is all that matters to me.</p>
<p>I think one of the key points to be drawn from all this is that, just like any other job, there are areas of the country where it's better to be a doctor than others. And because of the variety in medicine, that means that there is a lot of variety between specialities as well, clouding the picture even more. </p>
<p>The other thing I caution the students reading this thread from, when looking at the doom and gloom presented by current physicians, remember - you're not going to know the difference, you'll only know what you enter and how it changes from there. Will it matter to you what things were like in the 1985? Physicians have been forecasting dark times for medicine for a long, long, long time. I'm sure the doctors on this board heard similar things when they were in medical school or going through residency from the docs who were 15-30 years out at the time. And even today there are many thousands of people who would give their right arm to be a doctor.</p>
<p>At the same time, it's important that the physicians on this board paint an accurate picture of the current practice climate. You do need to have an idea of what you're getting into. Don't focus just on that final salary number, realize the years of schooling, the debt, and the hard work, the poor pay of residency, and the long hours you have to work. Take into account that you will give up most, if not all, of your 20's for the sake of your future patients - while your college friends who get real jobs have way more fun than you. </p>
<p>For all these reasons take the gripes with a grain of salt. If there's one thing I've come to realize in my colleagues and myself it's that med students (and thus by extension residents and doctors) LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to complain. I'm not kidding. Whatever the reason that causes it, I've come realize that it's never as bad as anyone says - whether it's a test in med school, the USMLE, a particular rotation, or whatever, it's never quite as awful as one is often led to believe.</p>
<p>Not every one can be a CEO though. Is the medicine field really this bad?</p>
<p>I have been reading this thread for a while now and i must say that its been very helpful for me.
I am a pharmacist (took me 8 years, debt free from playing sports in undergrad and the generosity of my parents in phamrmacy school) and i recently started to think about going back to medical school.
You see as a pharmacist i make a very comfortable living $125000 working 40 hours a week. So its very hard for me and my wife especially to think about spending another 8 years in school !
So why Med school? To me, its all about the patient and not the money.
I see the health care crisis on a daily basis at work and must agree with some of the docs here. The problem is extremely complicated but the results are very easy to see for all of us. The patients are the ulimate loosers in the mess. They are undertreated , misdiagnosed, poorly counselled etc..
You see in my case i thought the answer was to become a Primary care Physician simply because i thought i could tackle the problem at the source and provide better care for people.
But after talking to numerous Docs in my area and looking at discussions just like this one, i seriously think that its a lost cause.
The problems that we have in Pharmacy is the same problems that physicians have in private practices and hospitals. The health care system in america as we know it, turned into a corporation with one ultimate goal, to allow the middleman to make MONEY and to decrease cost for the governemt.
My first advise to a preMEd student right now is to listen to the same advise my Mother gave me after graduating from HS. Follow your heart and the money will come.
2nd they are plenty of very rewarding jobs in the medical field, Medicine is one of them but you also have Dentistry, Pharmacy, Vet etc.. All very rewarding professions.
the last advise is for all the current medical students and other health care students out there , it might not be a bad idea to try the dual degree option with the MPH or MBA or even JD anything that can allow you one day to lobby or defend the interests of your fellow health care providers</p>
<p>I decided against going to Medical school and will enroll in the UF MPH program next Fall instead.!!</p>
<p>Hey guys! I know this thread has been dead for a while...but can anyone tell me about MD/MBA and MD/PhD. What are they and how do they help?
I am currently a high school senior whose been interested in medicine for years...i know its very early but I have narrowed down my options(based on my internship experiences) to either medicine or medical research....</p>
<p>
[quote]
1> You be in the #1 wealthiest group of income earners in the US. Doctors get more than CEOs on average.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>and</p>
<p>
[quote]
"The average physician's salary is about $155,000 now"</p>
<p>That's more than CEOs of companies, on average.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ummm... on what planet are you living on? Even relatively low level executives will make much more than 155k. In many companies after considering the total compensation package (stock options, bonuses etc.) top executives might easily pull home 155k a month.</p>
<p>I have two friends that are both about 30. Both received their doctorates (MD for one and PhD for the other) when they were 26. The MD lives in a small rented apartment, has about 200k in school debt and makes about 48k per year as a resident. The PhD went to work for a global consulting firm after his degree starting on just under 100k a year, is a homeowner and now makes about 160k a year (and will probably easily make double that or more in the next 5 years). Sure the MD will make a lot more than 48k after the residency is over, but their cumulative income will never come close to the other guy. </p>
<p>I totally agree with the posts on this thread saying that one shouldn't care about the money and instead become a physician because they love what they do. But these comments suggesting that somehow, on average, a physician will live a life of luxury makin the big bucks and being in the 'No 1 group of income earners in the US' is simply sheer fantasy. Sure when you're 40 something, the debt is paid off and can get back on a normal financial track you'll be financially better off than the average joe (top 10% sure, but not at the top by any means). </p>
<p>As more and more healthcare is funded by the taxpayer the future pressure on physician salaries is only negative. Again, I can't stress it enough, it's not about the money but please please make sure you know what your signing up for financially speaking... it's quite rough for a long time and relative to other folks with that amount of schooling it really doesn't pay that well.</p>
<p>It is disheartening to read this thread of emails. I never considered going into medicine to become wealthy but instead pursued an honorable profession. My salary is roughly average but in addition I have 403B retirement plan, good health benefits, educational perks, and I can sleep comfortably at night. I actually make twice as much as my MBA husband and was able to raise 2 children with live-in help and can afford private school. If I had to do it over, I might pursue a MD/PhD since usually the tuition is free and then could do bench to bedside research.</p>
<p>I'm questioning whether I should go into being a physician, pharmacist, or a whole different path in general.</p>
<p>This is a really stressful time for me because I don't know what i want to do. I literally stay up every night not being able to fall asleep just thinking about it forever. </p>
<p>On one hand I have wanted to be a doctor since I was a little kid, but I wonder if the debt (medical school), stress, and longer schooling is really worth it. </p>
<p>I have also been accepted into University of Pacific's Pharmacy program which would allow me to become a pharmacist in 5 years. This would be the best economical choice, but I don't know if i really would be happy doing this. The reason i applied is because my brother is in the same program, and encouraged me to apply.</p>
<p>I really have no particular interest. I will most likely be attending UCLA (maybe duke), I have Biology as my declared major, but don't know if i want to pursue it. I am the type of person that would just do whatever i have to for the best lifestyle. </p>
<p>I have to make my decision fairly soon, but i am still very confused. Does anyone have any advice when it comes to choosing a profession? What made it easier for all of you to decide what you wanted to do?</p>
<p>I basically have the same dilemna. I was accepted into the Rutgers 6-year
pharmacy program. I have to make a decision by May 1st of what i want to do. Sure I can go into pharmacy and switch out, but if I'm going to do that I'm missing opportunities at other schools. </p>
<p>I think in the future I will be happier as a doctor. But I don't know if am ready for the extra years of schooling and residencies, compared to the pharmacy program which is over in 6 years.</p>
<p>Quote:
1> You be in the #1 wealthiest group of income earners in the US. Doctors get more than CEOs on average. </p>
<p>and</p>
<p>Quote:
"The average physician's salary is about $155,000 now"</p>
<p>That's more than CEOs of companies, on average. </p>
<p>Quote:
"Ummm... on what planet are you living on?"
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Actually those statistics are right...
This is from forbes magazine:</p>
<p>Notice how most of this post is about money.
Then there are people saying that you shouldn't think about money.
Who are you kidding? Have you seen what it is like out there?
Most of the smart kids in high school and college want to make the most out of their intelligence and hard work. Do you blame them for this? It would hurt them to see someone who is dumber than them make more money than them. It is completely natural. Capitalism isn't about "may the best man win", its about "may those who game the system the most, win."</p>
<p>To all those high schoolers and premeds who are worried about their future. The best thing to do is: define YOUR PERSONAL GOALS and YOUR MATERIALISTIC GOALS and figure out YOUR CAREER.
That said, your career will not hold the same spark 20 years into it. No one will like what they do 20 years in. It doesn't matter if they're a doctor, engineer, or CEO. What will make them happy is money, a good personal life, low stress, and safety in the future.
If your goals include: getting a house in a good neighborhood, a car, decent money, and a good personal life with a wife and kid(s), and low stress. Then do not become a doctor. On the contrary, if you want to become wealthy sonofa***** with millions in the bank and private jets etc, then don't become a doctor. What I'm saying is define YOUR goals. Prestige doesn't matter, money does. Money and lifestyle becomes prestige.
I had to pick between becoming a doctor and a pharmacist and unless you like PRACTICING medicine, you will be better off (financially and personally) as a pharmacist.</p>
<p>My goals were:
(1) a decent house in a nice neighborhood.
(2) a car; I don't care about getting a BMW or Mercedes, I'd rather get a Toyota considering the fact that after 20 days owning either a Toyota or BMW, I'd feel the same.
(3) financial security: money-in-the bank, well-paying secure job, being able to retire safely, etc.
(4) satisfying personal life with family and friends
(5) decent job that does not interfere with your personal life
(6) I'm really not that materialistic, I don't want mansions, jewels, $1000 clothes, etc. I'm not a big spender, but I like investing money (stocks) and knowing that I have money when the need arises</p>
<p>My way to achieve this:
(1) I become a pharmacist in 5 to 6 years.
(2) In my 20s I plan to work a lot and settle down with a house, car, etc. on Long Island.
(3) Max out my 401k, IRA, have a 529 plan, a cash safety net, etc.
(4) See if I can move up the ladder in my job.
(5) Ease my hours in my 30s and onwards.
(6) Meanwhile, I continue with my personal life and pursue any side interests.
(7) Retire.
(8) DIE</p>
<p>I've talked to hundreds of people and that is all that matters in the long run.
Medicine is a lifestyle, not a job. You will not enjoy yourself unless you like medicine more than sex. You will not get paid! Even if you get paid $1M at age 35, you have sacrificed 10 years of your life for a lifestyle that is a little less *<strong><em>tier than a soldier in Iraq, except more depressing. It is hard for human beings to live the same *</em></strong> for 10 years, let alone 40 years.
Bottom line: define your lifestyle, personal, and materialistic goals and then find the easiest way to achieve them and the rest will fall in place. </p>
<p>DO NOT GO INTO MEDICINE FOR MONEY!
WHY? THERE ISN'T ANY!
FORGET THE FACT THAT MALPRACTICE AND TAXES WILL RAPE YOUR PAYCHECK, YOUR LIFESTYLE WILL SUCK! EVEN IF YOU GET PAID $1M AT AGE 35 (UNLIKELY), YOUR "id" WILL TELL YOU THAT IT WASN'T WORTH IT.</p>
<p>imaginationpower,</p>
<p>No. You're looking at wages not total compensation. For most top executives (not even CEO level) bonuses, stock options and other forms of compensation generally form a large portion, if not the majority, of their annual compensation package. Average physician salary might be in the mid to high 100s but a decent executive might easily take that amount home as an end of year bonus. "Wages/Salaries" might be similar, but total compensation is not.</p>
<p>worriedperiod sums it all up really nicely. I really do get worried when I see people on these forums thinking that they're going to live a life of luxury swimming in cash with little worries. If your goal in life is to live a comfortable high class lifestyle, with less stress, a strong family, nice things then don't go into medicine as you will be sorely disappointed. However, if you have a true passion for the practicing of medicine and are willing to put that passion before family, friends, money and your lifestyle then you're likely to enjoy it.</p>
<p>I've been wanting to become a plactic surgeon. But lately I've been having doubts, since a big motivation for it IS the money. But see, I don't want to just be a plastic surgeon either. I want to save lives as well, so though the money to justify my labor is important to me I want to know my labor is also giving a greater service... Odd eh? =/
Don't worry about me being a bad surgeon if I go into the field though. When I do something I put my heart into it, and I work as hard as I can in hopes of someday being the best. 'Course, that doesn't mean I want to ever live in the economic situation I'm in right now again and pursue my other career option at 100% (Yes. Money does matter to me. I want to be wealthy and laid back. I know that doctor is not exactly the career for this, but then again, what is? CEO? I really do not have much interest in buisness...)</p>
<p>Also, I have a huge interest in art. By the sound of it I'd have to give it up... I was really hoping to have a sort of side career in graphic design. =(</p>
<p>Here's a question for you to ponder:</p>
<p>If the money was the same, would you rather be counting pills or healing people/saving lives?</p>
<p>Um. Glorifying medicine much, are we?</p>
<p>Healing people. No doubt about it.</p>