<p>Wow it seems to be that dermatology is the hardest residency to get.
Does that mean those doctors are actually the smartest? But dermatologists I don't think are even that highly regarded by most people, probably less so by other doctors. Seems to me dermatologists must be absolutely brilliant.</p>
<p>It is one of the hardest to get. They don't have to be the smartest. Some are, some aren't. You just need good scores, and a good recs, and good experiences in it.</p>
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Doctors only lose cases where they genuinely screw up! If the doctor didn't do anything wrong, but the patient dies, then there no way to blame the doctor.
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<p>In an ideal world, this would be true. Unfortunately, lawyers frequently can get large settlements from adverse outcomes, where the doctor isn't necessarily at fault. That is why there are so few MDs who are willing to do risky procedures, why many Ob-Gyns give up obstetrics altogether and why malpractice premiums are so high.</p>
<p>Dermatology is hard to get into because there are so few residency spots and many students want them because it's so lifestyle-friendly. Typically, derm requires the highest USMLE scores, lots of research, and connections.</p>
<p>I know, I know... do not enter medicine for the money. However, I have heard a lot about doctor's incomes on these boards that are false and I want to clear it up. My dad is a cardiologist and we know plenty of physicians, so I guarantee that my stats are correct. A general physician will make $200,000 at most, with those in family practice averaging closer to $300,000. In specialties like radiology and cardiology, the pay is obscene. A partner in a cardiology firm can make past $700,000 with 2 procedures per day. A radiologist gets around $450,000. If you want to be a millionare, a field involving devices is the way to go. There is still money to be made in medicine, but if you are in it solely for that, then choose the correct specialty.</p>
<p>I think the best way to go is not to use anecdotes, but rather to present salary data collected by respected organizations. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm#earnings</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.studentdoc.com/salaries.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.studentdoc.com/salaries.html</a></p>
<p>I would also interpret the salaries of the specialties cautiously. Some would say that you should just shoot for the high-paying specialties. Woe betide you if you really think it's that easy. Just because you want a particular specialty does not automatically mean that you're going to get it. All medical students undergo a match process after med-school graduation that determines what residency that will get, and which will correspondingly determine what specialty they will get to pursue. Med-students rank their most desired residencies, but then the hospitals in turn rank their most desired students, according to performance of the students as measured by grades, evaluations, interview performance, and so forth. So you may want to specialize in X, but if they don't want you, then you probably won't get it. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.nrmp.org/about_nrmp/how.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.nrmp.org/about_nrmp/how.html</a> </p>
<p>I said it before, I'll say it again. If all you want is money, don't become a doctor. Go become an investment banker. The kind of money that Ibankers make dwarfs the money that doctors make.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.careers-in-finance.com/ibsal.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.careers-in-finance.com/ibsal.htm</a></p>
<p>"If all you want is money, then compared to medicine, i-banking is the better bet both for your own sanity and for the welfare of your patients "</p>
<p>But isn't ibanking very fickle? Also, it's not really a long career, is it? My understanding is that after a few years in the business, you're an "old timer" with not many prospects (unless you're one of the very few that likes to move up "ranks")....medicine is probably a much better field in terms of money and stabilty, as well as longevity. Ibanking is kinda of playing lottery ;)</p>
<p>eh just making a safe living without having to worry about money too much is fine... $150,000 is pretty decent if you ask me. then add the salary of your spouse. so maybe around $200,000 at least. thats pretty darn decent!</p>
<p>Then add taxes, then add payments for you house and cars. Your kids schooling. Then think about the time you aren't home and the damage that does to your kids. Think about the time again and explain it to your spouse if they are not in medicine, they will sure love to never see you. Then remember emergencies happen all the time and you can be called in any time. That much money doesn't fit the job. Docs dont work a normal 9-5 M-F . You can, but you won't make that much. Remember insurance companies are usually the ones paying you, and what they decide to pay you is what you get. A lot of times this means filling your sched full just to pay the bills. And that causes time problems.</p>
<p>sak, what have you heard about letting the navy pay for your med school then goin to work for the navy for 3 years then getting any residency you want from the navy?</p>
<p>"Then add taxes, then add payments for you house and cars. Your kids schooling."</p>
<p>Everyone has to pay taxes, not just doctors.</p>
<p>"Docs dont work a normal 9-5 M-F ."</p>
<p>...yeah, they do. the only times they don't is when they're on call, which could be one weekend a month.</p>
<p>yea but think about it, for people who are purely in for the money, after accumulating millions and investing WISELY (where your business skills and education should hopefully come in handy), you can retire and enjoy life. being on call as a doctor when youre 50+ or 60+ isnt the same as when youre a med student. stamina and memory may potentially affect your decision making.</p>
<p>my uncle who was a neurosurgeon retired when he was 53 bc of the pressure and long work hours. a lot of my relatives say he "burned out" due to the work he's been thru the past 20 years. it's no doubt TOUGH on your body both physically and mentally</p>
<p>They work hard, but it seems people think their hours are impossible. there are days when you have to stay at the office until 9PM, but it is rare. For those not in private practice, hours are much more "normal."</p>
<p>It depends on what area you go into. A surgeon is going to be on call more often/have longer hours, than a family physician in private practice.</p>
<p>I work for a doc who has a private practice as well as co-ownership of a healthcare home (the one older sick people go to). He go's to work at 7 in the morning. Works at his practice until 6pm, then goes to the home, then back to the office where he stays until 9 or 10pm. On weekends he just goes to his office where he is there from 9-5pm. If you want to be anything except for a general surgeon odds are you are going to be part of a private practice, or you will have your own, where you will have to do all or some of the paperwork. Just because you have secretaries doesnt mean they do all the paperwork. This also goes to say that no matter what you will have weekends on call at least once a month. Unless people in your practice let you have them off graciously, which is unlikely to happen every weekend of your practicing life. And as state above general surgeons as well as most surgeons are generally ready to go into the hospital at any point during their day unless they are out of state, or way out of town. If a big emergency comes up, you go in, no ifs ands or buts.</p>
<p>It just seems who you ask, everyone is gonna have a different opinion. Just curious, where exactly is investment banking on that forbes link, am I missing something?</p>
<p>Life can be tough in medicine, but that's a choice one makes based on the specialty one chooses. If you want to be an orthopedic surgeon or an OB-Gyn, your hours will be long. If you want to work a regular schedule and not be bothered with on-calls, you can do something like emergency medicine, where four 12 hour shifts a week will be enough.</p>
<p>It depends on what category Forbes put i-banking under. I-banking, because it's a very specific career, is often grouped with other finance professions, many of which lower the average salary. Also, the i-banking hierarchy is like a pyramid, so there are many more relatively low-paid people (analysts & associates) than senior VP's and MD's. With doctors, salaries tend to be more uniform.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But isn't ibanking very fickle? Also, it's not really a long career, is it? My understanding is that after a few years in the business, you're an "old timer" with not many prospects (unless you're one of the very few that likes to move up "ranks")....medicine is probably a much better field in terms of money and stabilty, as well as longevity. Ibanking is kinda of playing lottery
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<p>When we're talking about Ibanking, I take it to mean the general financiert-type roles, and not Ibanking in the strictest sense. Many financier roles are not Ibanking, but these roles are often times lumped together under the Ibanking rubric. It is the general financier roles that I am really talking about when I say "Ibanking". </p>
<p>Having said that, I would say that it is true that Ibanking is fickle, and can be thought of as a lottery system. And also true, Ibanking is very much up-or-out in the sense that you're either a star that's on track to the top, or you're going to be fired. Hence, one could say that medicine is more stable.</p>
<p>However, the point needs to be made that if you happen to be one of the stars, then there's simply no comparison between the kind of money you can make doing IB and the money you make as a doctor. Absolutely no comparison whatsoever. Even the very best doctors would be hard pressed to make more than 7 figures a year. And that's the very best doctors. However, the best financiers can make 8 or 9 figures a year. Simply put, the best financier can make more money in 1 year than the best doctor can make in his whole lifetime. Which gets back to my central point - if all you care about is money, don't go to medicine. Go to finance. </p>
<p>Let me point out that the up-or-out system in finance is not as harsh as it might seem. True, the majority of IB associates will be eliminated after a few years because they weren't stars. But that doesn't mean that their career is finished. Most of them end up as Corporate Finance officers in companies around the world. Those jobs are obviously not as high-paying or prestigious as the high-flying IB jobs, but they're still pretty darn good. Others end up working in hedge funds or private equity firms or wealth-management firms, which again, are a pretty good deal. </p>
<p>I would also point out that a medical career is also rather ruthless in terms of career progression. For example, the most ruthless aspect of becoming a doctor is simply getting admitted into medical school. The AAMC reports that 51% of all people nationwide who apply to med-school get rejected by every single med-school they apply to. Yeah, that's right, rejected from every single one. And keep in mind that that's just talking about those people who actually apply to med-school, which tend to be the better students. Plenty of people try out premed but get grades and MCAT scores that are so bad that they know they won't get in, so they don't even bother to apply. Let's face it. If you have get straight C's in your premed courses and you get a bad MCAT score, you're probably not going to waste time in applying, because you know you won't get in.</p>
<p>The other rather ruthless aspect of the process is that you don't have complete control over what specialty you will get. Just because you want a certain specialty does not mean you're going to get it. After you complete medical-school, you have to "match" with a residency program, and that match is determined by a number of factors including grades, evaluations, interviews, and so forth. You then list your top choice of program, but then the programs list their top choice of student, and the results get collated and optimized. Some people will not end up matching into something they really want, and some won't match anywhere at all. The point is that as an incoming medical student, you have no assurance about what branch of medicine you will end up in. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/index.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/index.html</a></p>
<p>So the point is, while the IB/finance career path is certainly harsh and ruthless, let's not pretend that the premed/medical career path doesn't have its own aspects of harshness and ruthlessness. We can debate which is more harsh and more ruthless, but what is indisputable is that both are harsh and ruthless to some degree. </p>
<p>
[quote]
It depends on what category Forbes put i-banking under. I-banking, because it's a very specific career, is often grouped with other finance professions, many of which lower the average salary. Also, the i-banking hierarchy is like a pyramid, so there are many more relatively low-paid people (analysts & associates) than senior VP's and MD's.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I would point out that even the low-level grunt analysts and associates are getting paid pretty darn well. Back in '97, Analysts fresh out of undergrad in bulge-bracket firms on Wall Street were clearing about 90k (after bonus, of course). I believe now it's something like $150k (I will have my IB connections confirm this, but I believe this is correct). That's not bad for a guy fresh out of undergrad. Granted, they're working 90 hours a week, but hey, resident doctors are also working ridiculous hours too. </p>
<p>But again, to reiterate my basic point, you should choose a career in medicine because you really want to be a doctor and heal people. Truly. Because if you're just in it for the money, I think you will be disappointed. There are far easier and lucrative career paths out there.</p>
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sak, what have you heard about letting the navy pay for your med school then goin to work for the navy for 3 years then getting any residency you want from the navy?
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<p>Well, first of all, it's AT LEAST a 3-year commitment to the Navy, often times more. Basically, it's a quid pro quo - the more the Navy assists you, the more they expect out of you.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.navy.com/healthcare/physicians%5B/url%5D">http://www.navy.com/healthcare/physicians</a></p>
<p>I also don't believe that the Navy program helps you get a residency. I believe the commitment to the Navy starts after your residency is completed. Hence, it seems to me that the Navy program doesn't help you to get the residency itself, and certainly won't help you 'get any residency you want'. For example, I have a very hard time believing that participating in the Navy program will, by itself, allow you to jump to the front of the line to get the most prestigious residency at, say, Johns Hopkins or wherever. But anyway, maybe you should go talk to a Navy recruiter and find out what the real deal is.</p>