<p>looking back, i think golubb really nailed the issue in his first post on this thread. </p>
<p>eternity, glad we could've helped!</p>
<p>Mr_sanguine: you speak as if you think that medicine leads to guaranteed wealth, which is not true at all. It's arguably just as hard (if not harder) to make it as a specialty surgeon than as an i-banking managing director. First of all, admission to med school is statistically harder than admission to b-school. Med schools have far lower acceptance rates than b-schools, and undergrad programs are able to weed out many aspiring premeds with rigid curriculum requirements and difficult weeder courses. This type of weeding out doesn't occur nearly as much for pre-business students. Also, admission to med school in no way guarantees that you'll match into a good residency program. High-paying specialties such as dermatology, cardiology, and orthopaedic surgery are extremely competitive to get into. Some specialties also require admission to a fellowship program after residency (such as cardiology). As you can see, medicine has a number of difficult barriers to overcome. It's not like getting into med school will set you up for any specialty; many people can't pick and choose. They have to stick with whatever they end up matching in. Many aspiring cardiologists get stuck after their IM residency, and they are forced to practice the relatively low-paying specialty of general IM. There is a public misconception that once you get into med school, you can easily enter any specialty you want. This is not true at all. Also, many MBA's enter relatively low/medium-paying management jobs because they also want to have lifestyle-friendly jobs. Many of them are content with low six-figure salaries as long as they get family time, job security, etc. Those who really want the money can get it through i-banking, where million-dollar salaries seem to be common. If you analyze things thoroughly, you'll see that medicine is not an easy path to guaranteed wealth. It's arguably as hard or harder to become a rich specialist than an i-banker (keep in mind that one doesn't even have to be a top i-banker to pull in a million dollars per year). If you want money, medicine is not the path to go, period. It might actually be easier to break into i-banking, and as long as you don't burn out, you will be a millionaire before you're 30.</p>
<p>i respectfully disagree</p>
<p>You say many MBA's enter relatively low/medium-paying management jobs b/c they want to have a better lifestyle. My bet is that while this is true for some, many more are being forced to "settle" because they can't get the better paying jobs. </p>
<p>You're right in describing how difficult it is to get those high post medical positions, but making it to CEO is no walk in the park either. While you cite entrance into medical school and residency programs as the reasons for the pathway into top-level medicine being more difficult (in your opinion), my personal view is that the route to top ib and CEO is more challenging, simply because in this case your fate is in the hands of others. </p>
<p>And whereas in business your destiny is controlled by other people, in medicine, it's more so in your hands. It's much easier to make it to neurosurgery and CV-surgery (where there are very high incomes) through genuine hard work than it is to make it to CEO through hard work. When you said that the weeding out that occurs in admission to medical school doesn't occur for those in pre-business, you are correct. But the weeding out is just postponed for post-graduation, when people get their jobs and have to perform there. </p>
<p>And not that it really matters, but I think you might be overestimating the salary of an ibanker. Most Wharton kids enter i-banking, and the median salary for those 10 or 15 years (sry, i forgot which) later is about 500k. I can find the Wharton survey for this if you want me to - just ask. While MANY, MANY ibankers make the 1M mark, I don't think its just anyone - you DO need to be a TOP i-banker to pull the 1M a year. </p>
<p>Again, I am not saying that docs make the same as ibankers. If all you want is money, than there should be no hesitation in pursuing ibanking over medicine. But if you want more - helping others, girls :) etc, pursuing medicine is a great option. There is lots of money here too if you want to pursue it (though, once again, i consent, not as much as in i-banking) and you get the added bonus of the value of your profession as well. </p>
<p>I think we've mostly made our points by now. You've raised some good issues and i hope in some ways it helps ppl to decide on what they want to do. good luck!</p>
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<p>When you're trying to match to various residencies, you're not leaving your fate in the hands of others? And I never mentioned CEO's or top IB's. Even average i-bankers, at the managing director level, can easily pull over a mil per year. And besides, I never said that getting to the top in business is easier than in medicine. I was merely refuting the commonly held notion that making it in medicine is much easier and guaranteed, which it is certainly not. Both are at about the same level of difficulty and competitiveness, although they require completely different skillsets.</p>
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<p>No, I'm not overestimating the salary of an i-banker. And I've also seen the Wharton survey. Salaries are not broken down by industry. That $500k salary is the average of all Wharton grads who responded to the survey. Because of those low/mid-level managers we mentioned before, that average in no way represents how much i-bankers are making. <a href="http://www.careers-in-finance.com/ibsal.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.careers-in-finance.com/ibsal.htm</a> shows rough salary ranges for various i-banking posts. The low-end of MD's at bulge-bracket firms is $400k (and from what I heard, that would be an atrociously low salary for MD's). From various people I've spoken to (friends' parents who are i-bankers, family friends, etc.) I've heard that salaries of $1mil are not uncommon even at the VP level. As I said before, as long as you don't burn out, you will make a ton of money as an i-banker, as much and quite possibly more than the top doctors.</p>
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<p>I agree with you here. My whole point was that if you want money, go to i-banking. It's extremely tough, but you will make a lot of money relatively quickly. When all your peers in medicine are struggling through their fifth year of residency, drowning in student debt, you could be a millionaire. Of course, medicine has more prestige with the general public and you can saves lives, yada yada, so it's all a matter of fit. I totally agree with you here. I think we misunderstood each other in that you thought that I was implying that all MBA's can easily become overnight millionaires, and I thought that you were implying that medicine is the easy path to lifelong affluence. Neither profession is easy to break into. Both have extremely demanding lifestyles. I-bankers make more money, but doctors have those priceless perks of being able to have the God complex and have job security. It's a matter of fit.</p>
<p>"When you're trying to match to various residencies, you're not leaving your fate in the hands of others?"</p>
<p>You are, of course, but less so. Your med school, your grades/rank in the med school and board scores are very, very important factors in determing residency match and these are not so much in other people's control. In business, conversely, alot more is based on luck, inate ability, and how much your boss likes you. These aren't in your control. That's why I know Sakky has posted a number of times on the MBA forum that the purpose of MBA programs isn't really the education, but the networking opportunities the programs present. </p>
<p>Also, getting into a specialty isn't really the hard part of residency match. It's rare that someone is matched to something they don't want/dont like. The more difficult part - the part that everyone talks about - is WHERE you match. The issue is not whether or not you'll match in neurosurgery, but if you'll match at Mass.Gen or Funkydoo Med. </p>
<p>The salaries....I'm still a bit sceptical the numbers (I also know some bankers through family etc), but I won't argue it because we've both already agreed that ibankers do make more cash than docs. Though I have said it once and I'll say it again that there is solid money in medicine for those that want to pursue it (again, not as much as in i-banking). So we agree here too.</p>
<p>You put it well at the end. It's a matter of fit and what you want. People just have to evaluate the opportunity costs in their favor. it's diff for everyone.</p>
<p>I'm glad we got that settled. I see now what you mean about med school being more in your hands. I wasn't sure what you meant by that before. So to summarize: i-banking for money, medicine for slightly less money (although still more than enough to live comfortably) and other perks, like being able to save lives.</p>
<p>Exactly right sir</p>
<p>Good, glad we got that covered.</p>
<p>As far as people getting their specialties, a lot of people don't get what they want. Some people want to do a cardio fellowship. But with a few hundred or thousands apps per one spot its not easy, and not everybody gets it no matter how hard they try. This also goes to say, not everyone who wants Neurosurg gets it because high scores do not guarantee it, no matter how high your scores are and no matter how much research you have, you may not get it, and you will have to settle on something else, that you may want to do but not as much as neursurg.</p>
<p>thats mostly only true if you are applying from an international med school (caribbean, india). </p>
<p>high scores and a decent med school will basically guarantee you - as far as guaranees go - that you will get the specialty you want. If you want something not as competitive, you need even less. </p>
<p>Again, the issue for most ppl in med school is not whehter or not they will get the specialty, but whether they'll go where they want.</p>
<p>That's mostly true, but there are ultra-competitive specialties like derm and orthopaedic surgery, which are extremely tough to get into no matter where you come from. I've heard that to get a derm residency, it's almost required for you to have connections. There are just too many applicants for too few spots. High USMLE scores and research are often not enough. Believe it or not, most of the surgery specialties (like cardiothoracic) are actually easy to get into because many med students prefer more lifestyle-friendly and less intense specialties. So if you really want the money, it's not too difficult to find a specialty that pays well, but be warned that you'll be giving up a lot of time and energy for it.</p>
<p>Yeah, derm is an exception.</p>
<p>But for the others, like ForeverZero says, if you want to go after them you can get them.</p>
<p>Well, not just derm, although that's by far the most competitive. Radiology, ortho, and some IM subspecialties also come to mind. There are many aspiring cardiologists who go into IM and fail to match into a fellowship, and so they're stuck with practicing general IM.</p>
<p>wow...I wanna do Cardio-vascular surgery...It's so awesome, looking at the live heart beating away in front of you...either that or orthopedic surgery...or hell, maybe neurosurgery...but I'm definitely specializing in surgery.</p>
<p>but then again they saw as society keeps modernizing, there are more and more less invasive ways to fix things... I wonder if surgeon's will ever lose their job...</p>
<p>nah, those less invasive ways still take alot of expertise.</p>
<p>Surgeons will never really lose their place in medicine, but a lot of procedures are being replaced or shifted to other doctors. Extremely risky vascular and cardiothoracic surgeries are being replaced with minimally-invasive procedures performed by interventional cardiologists and radiologists, for example. But there will always be patients who need to have complicated operations, and for them there will always be surgeons.</p>
<p>what about robots? lol..may seem like a dumb question...but what if robots became so advanced that they could replace a surgeon and actually do a better job?</p>
<p>Almost everything that follows in this post concerning bad patient outcomes is patently false.</p>
<p>There's no backup option in medicine. Once your screwed, you're done for good. You mess up an operation and get blamed for it - if the patient still lives - you'll get sued like crazy and suspended for some time. If the patient dies, your life is over and you will get disbarred and maybe even arrested. So unless you go into medicine for nothing other than passion and love for the subject, it really is not a good idea. Can you imagine sitting home w/out a job in medicine when you trained a third of your life for it? That would be a terrible situation. In business, if your fired, so what? If I get my degree from Wharton or Chicago or Northwestern and work for an i-bank and make tons of money and then get fired later on, big deal...... I can just as easily get a job the next day. There's no disbarring or permanent b.s. I have to put up with. That's just w/ an undergrad. degree. What if I get an actual MBA or graduate business degree from Harvard, Columbia, Stanford, or other top schools? You get fired here, you can go work else-where. Unless you purposely break the business laws (feduciary laws or something like that..) and do illegal things like those Enron CEO's and Martha Stewart, your flexibility is great.</p>
<p>I'm just trying to point out some critical factors in both subjects. Everyone here keeps talking about how grandeur and stable medicine is so I needed to point out the reality or medicine that comes w/ the job.</p>
<p>"There's no backup option in medicine. Once your screwed, you're done for good. You mess up an operation and get blamed for it - if the patient still lives - you'll get sued like crazy and suspended for some time. If the patient dies, your life is over and you will get disbarred and maybe even arrested"</p>
<p>...hmm, that's not true. Doctors only lose cases where they genuinely screw up! If the doctor didn't do anything wrong, but the patient dies, then there no way to blame the doctor. </p>
<p>In fact, I haven't heard of any surgeon losing his license and never being arrested either! Remember Dr.Kavorkian??</p>
<p>yeah its highly untrue. That only happens when docs genuinely screw up, and the medical community makes sure that very rarely happens. We hear about it in the news only because it makes good news. </p>
<p>With this in mind, I'm a bit skeptical about eternity_hope's purported "immunity" in business. "If you're fired, so what?" isn't a question you should be asking. If it happens once, maybe you're ok (as long as the reason you were fired isn't too big a deal). If it happens again, things will get ugly for you. </p>
<p>With so many people in the business market - many with top business degrees - why would any company hire someone who has been fired? There is hardly any reason to hire someone kicked out of one company rather than an equally qualified person who hasn't been. </p>
<p>What's more, in business, it's much ezier to get fired for the wrong reasons. More often than not, ppl lose their jobs just because their boss doesnt like them and wont put in a good word for them at the top. </p>
<p>And if this happens, what are you going to say in your next interview when he/she asks you what happened at your last job? Whine about how much your boss hated you?</p>