Is a ton of hospital experience going to save me?

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
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<p>So here's the deal. I've been a CNA since I was 18, and have been working as one since then. I also have my phlebotomy license, ACLS, PALS, and BLS. I'm hoping to get into an American MD program, but my science GPA is sub-par. Some guidance would be phenomenal. Here's my stats/situation.</p>

<p>I'm white/native american, 21, female, and attend Vanderbilt University.</p>

<p>My reg GPA is ~3.4 (actually like 3.39) right now, but I still have next semester grades to go in before I apply.</p>

<p>My science GPA is only a 3.01</p>

<p>I work full time at the Vanderbilt Medical Center as a CNA. Part of my job includes placing foleys, starting IVs, doing blood draws/cultures, obtaining vitals, and other basic patient care.</p>

<p>Some explanation: My science GPA is very low, partially due to some extenuating circumstances (I know, we all have them). During my first semester of freshman year (in addition to adjusting to a top university after having come from a not all that great public high schooll),my classes took a hit (grade wise). Originally, my major was chemistry - this is my forte. However, I did very poorly this semester b/c my mother had a relapse with drugs. See what happened was the apartment she was living in was in my name because her credit was not good enough for her to get the apartment. However, once her relapse happened she stopped paying the bills and moved across the country to go and stay with her sister. I didn't want my credit to be messed up, so I was stuck paying the rent until the end of the lease even though no one was living there (we are required to live on campus at Vandy). To pay the $900 a month rent payment, I was working serious overtime, in addition to working on a full time school load. This was, by far, my worst semester. I had 2 C's in my gen bio class, and my best subject (chem) was a C- (my lowest grade I've ever made). I did retake the class and make an A. That next year, I was a student instructor and taught a gen chem class at a state school (150 students) for one semester.</p>

<p>Also, due to some bad advice on taking the MCAT for the first time "cold" to "see where you stand before you start studying," I have an MCAT score of a 22 on my AMCAS record. I recently took the AMCAS 1 and scored a 35, but I was told this is no indicator since the exam is so old.</p>

<p>I am taking the MCAT next semester, but am curious as to what score range I need to be in to be competitive for MD schools. Do I still stand a chance at getting into one?</p>

<p>Also, as far as my science GPA goes... b/c I am working full time, I don't want to take more science courses next semester (since I am not doing a science major), and study for the MCAT at the same time. I'm afraid either my MCAT score or GPA will suffer if I do this. Would it be okay for me to retake gen bio 1&2 over the summer and then just submit those scores to AMCAS after I get the grades for them? (Even though the scores won't come until August, after I've already submitted my AMCAS in June?)</p>

<p>Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Sorry this was so all over the place - I'm coming off of midterm week and am just stressed and running on little sleep.</p>

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<p>

I really feel for you, as you are one of those who do not have a parent who could help you when you are still young and need her support, even if it is not financial support.</p>

<p>Although I am not good enough to give you any advice, I want to cite an example. An applicant applying this year from Texas posted at SDN that her GPA is about 3.0 (both science and overall), not very high MCAT (likely below 30), but she has managed to get into an MD school in Arizona this year. She really has an amazing fighting spirit – her MCAT started from a lowly 16 and she took MCAT 6 times in the past 5 years in order to get a satisfactory score finally. Her screen name is noshie at SDN. Look it up.</p>

<p>If any medical school adcoms believe in the affirmative action, I think you should be one who definitely deserves some boost because of your difficult life experience. You are from Vandy which is a challenging school!</p>

<p>Hmm…I just notice you said you are partly native american. I believe they do give native american applicants some boost in the admission because there are so few native american applicants. Glad to hear that you have that and hopefully it could help.</p>

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<p>Thanks a lot, I really appreciate those words of encouragement. It has been hard b/c my mother is a single mother (my father passed away when I was 5), so she is my only support system and sometimes those roles have been reversed for us. I love her with my whole heart, but it has made things hard. Hopefully adcoms will be understanding about this, but for some reason I don’t really view medical school admissions as an understanding lot. Hopefully I will find a school who is the exception to this. Thanks again.</p>

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<p>I remember I read an LA Times article (a true story) about a kid who eventually got into a medical school about 10 years ago. If any of you are interested in reading it, here it is:</p>

<p>[One</a> Last Chance to Be a Doctor - Los Angeles Times](<a href=“http://articles.latimes.com/2000/aug/05/news/mn-65160]One”>One Last Chance to Be a Doctor)</p>

<p>Later, after LA Times had run that story, she received some scholarship from some private party too.</p>

<p>Personally, after I read some articles like this, I really believe there is some need for affirmative action. At some college, if a kid was from a weaker, rural, smaller high school, it is more likely (statistically speaking) that, in freshman year at least, he is against the odds to receive a good grade when competing against those students who have been “proven” to be the “winners” from very competitive high schools in a more resourceful suburban area near a big city.</p>

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<p>I have to agree with you there, and not just because I am in that situation. I just know first hand how it is when you are struggling in school and your only parent doesn’t even have algebra skills, let alone the guidance to help in advance calculus. And more than just subject matter, it’s hard to not know what to expect in college and not having a parent who has even graduated high school, let along college, is difficult. Plus there was the added pressure of trying to work while in school to help her pay the bills, but knowing that grades could not be sacrificed too much – but I mean at some point, your family has to come first. And then…well, I mentioned it in my earlier post…that sort of sent things over the top.</p>

<p>Things are better now that I’ve learned how to cope with it all, but there was an adjustment period for a semester or two before I got there. Now I make straight A’s and manage to work over 40 hours a week as well, which is an accomplishment for me b/c I find making A’s at a top school like Vandy, where it’s pretty competitive, quite demanding. But I feel like medical schools don’t allow for many excuses. What is worse, is that my “official” documentation for my tribe is still up in the air. I didn’t realize until this week that I had to have it, and when I contacted the administration for my tribe (about getting your official card and such), they said the process can be lengthy. So if I do not get that back before I submit my AMCAS, I might be forced to leave that off my application and just put “white,” despite the fact that my family history is much more than that. If that happens I’ll be a little devastated, mainly because it diminishes my chances, yes, but also b/c I want to work in internal medicine on the reservation and I don’t feel comfortable talking about that to adcoms if I don’t have the “card” they require (mainly for fear they will think I’m full of you-know-what and it will act negatively against me instead).</p>

<p>We’ll see…hoping for the best.</p>

<p>PS. Thanks for posting that article, I very much enjoyed it. Lets hope there is someone in my committee meeting who has had a life like mine or comes from where I do.</p>

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<p>This is going to sound odd–but what Native American tribe are you affiliated with? I ask because Univ of New Mexico Med School makes a special effort to enroll Native Americans and registered tribal members are given special consideration (considered in-state for admission purposes, though not for tuition purposes, unfortunately). NAs also tend to be accepted in UNM with lower stats than white or Hispanic candidates. A 3.0 GPA and a 26 MCAT are the posted minimums for consideration at UNM.</p>

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<p>I’m Cherokee Indian out of Arkansas - and while I do understand that some schools like this give preference, that is only for card holding member. I have never needed a card before, so do not have one. I’m working with my half sister right now to try and get the documentation together to get it, but it requires sooo much (death certificates, birth certificates, marriage certificates, addresses, children’s names, etc.). It’s been hard to get that information together because many of these people have passed away. I’m just concerned it won’t be submitted, reviewed, and accepted in time for admissions, in which case I will not be able to claim it on my application. At this point I have to prepare for the possibility of my just being able to put white.</p>

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<p>Your life story and your native american ethnicity are the biggest things going for you. The other medical experience is nice but not something that’s going to put you over the top. They’re procedural things that are more fit for nurses than doctors.</p>

<p>I think it will be extremely worthwhile to get registered with your Native American tribe. Think about all the time that people spend polishing their essays or practicing their interviews. That’s not worth 1/10 what having “Native American” on your application is worth. That’s the politically-incorrect truth. So, if you can get that done before applying, then do that. </p>

<p>With NA and a decent MCAT (30+), your 3.00 science GPA shouldn’t keep you out of med school. If you apply as white, even with a good MCAT and a good story, I don’t think you’ll get into med school.</p>

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<p>OP, Just a thought: Since it is so beneficial for you to get the card (as NCG just posted), is it worthwhile to hire some “professional” who could help you to get it legally in a timely way? The money spent there (if you are confident you could get it) may be more worthwhile than the money spent on your interview trail. Some applicants apply to over 30 schools all over the country because of some weakness in his application and it costs him a fortune.</p>

<p>

A correction in my post above. She got into a DO school instead, with a 27 mcat, according to her MDApp. Seeing how overjoyed she was when she found out she had achieved her life-time goal of 27 (she set this goal back in 2006 while still a college student), I think those of us (including DS) who could get a higher score than that with much less efforts should count our blessing. She is likely an URM from Mexico/Central America (since she said she speaks very fluently in Spanish), with parents who probably barely read, let alone college education.</p>

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<p>you might consider that Joint program between Cal & UCSF which considers a lot of other holistic factors besides numbers.</p>

<p><a href=“http://jmp.berkeley.edu/about/jmp_brochure.pdf[/url]”>http://jmp.berkeley.edu/about/jmp_brochure.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>^ There is a similar program called JAMP in Texas. I had the impression that they even paid for your undergraduate – but you can only go to a somewhat lower-tiered college where there are many students from poor families.</p>

<p>Not a long time ago, a CCer from southern texas who is at Emory now posted here that many students who were much worse than him academically but decided to stay at a local third-tier college are well on the way to become a doctor while being paid in college, while he is struggling at Emory with an uncertain future (and debt) on this path. He said he wished he had known this back in high school, as it is a much easier way (than his current way) to become a doctor.</p>

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<p>Vandyhopeful-
That is quite a background you have, and if included in your application creatively (not a woe-is-me story, but more of “this is who I am” story), could be a huge boost to your application. Needless to say, with the GPA being where it is and a lower MCAT score on your record, the next MCAT score needs to be good. Of course I hope you get a 45T :), but I would try to “aim” for the upper 30s and then if you fall somewhere in the 30+ range, I think you’d still be an interesting applicant to many MD schools with your background. You mention you’re Native American (I think even without the tribe card, you should still be able to claim this on your AMCAS, and hopefully have your card before secondary apps are due in), and from Arkansas. Both of those things can help you. If you are still an Arkansas resident, you are guaranteed an interview at UAMS (you can thank some questionable state legislation in the 1960s for that guarantee, I know I did!), so you at least have a chance to get some face time and “sell” yourself there, regardless of numbers. This isn’t to say that the interview can make up for numbers altogether, obviously it can’t, but it’s an interview you often wouldn’t otherwise get on numbers alone, so I view it as a huge benefit. The Native American status is an obvious benefit for the underrepresented reason, and may have extra benefits at certain medical schools, as mentioned by other posters.
I was an admissions counselor for our Arts and Sciences college last year and specialized in pre-med prospective counseling, so if there are any other questions you think of that I might be able to help with, let me know. As an aside- although my background is a bit different than yours, I was also a med school applicant with a lower than average GPA (for med school admissions, anyway) but compelling resume and background story. I am now a medical student attending UAMS, so I know it is possible (and I am white, so I disagree with norcalguy on the issue of not getting admitted without the NA status) to get admitted to a solid MD program without a perfect undergraduate GPA, but it’s not easy.
Good luck, and let me know if there’s anything I can help with.
-Matt</p>

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<p>

I guess everybody’s background is different. If an applicant is from California and needs to apply with a 3.0 GPA (and especially when he is very interested in getting into an IS school there), he will likely agree with NCG on this. :)</p>

<p>One midwest medical school admits more than 20 kids from California almost every year while it only admits 50 kids from the best public university in its state. There are a flood of good applicants from California!</p>

<p>I do not know much about medical school applications compared to all MS students or current applicants here. But for the application to the top colleges on either coast, if your high school is not one of the couple of top high schools in a relatively affluent area and you are not one of the top 5-6 kids from your high school, you are basically screwed. Is it unfair to you just because your parents can not afford to live in that school district? Of course it is not fair. But the top college, in general, just does not want to take the “risk” (or bother to dig deeply) to take a top kid from a small/unknown high school when they select the students based on their academic merits. (They do recruit some other students based on other merits from a rough neighborhood, for example. One information session from a top college purposely set up that session in that kind of neighborhood a few years ago. An irony is that zero student/family from that neighborhood bothered to show up. All students attending that information session are from the other (wealthier) side of the city.)</p>

<p>Thus, it is rumored that only the kids who are athletes or have other quality can get into a top college from these not-well-recognized school districts. Maybe it is a little bit more fair in the medical school admission on this aspect. A kid from a podunk college may still have a fighting chance if he aces the MCAT (thanks to its higher ceiling compared to SAT’s) and the ECs/life experiences aspect of the application. Well…I may have side-tracked.</p>

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<p>A 3.4 overall, 3.0 science, and a 22 MCAT on record doesn’t equal an American allopathic acceptance to me, even if the OP manages a 30 on the retake. Her story is certainly good but in the end of the day, there’s going to be doubts as to her ability to complete medical school. As a purely white applicant, 3.4/3.0/22 1st take/30 2nd take (hypothetical) is probably DO or Carribbean territory.</p>

<p>The landscape changes considerably if she applies as a Native American applicant as that is one of the most desirable URM’s. However, many med schools will want to see that tribal registration so she’ll definitely want to give it 120% to get that accomplished.</p>

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<p>Wow the flood of replies here is encouraging and appreciated. I do have to agree with those who posted about the NA thing being a top priority. I am officially making that my #1 goal right now, because there is truth to the fact that, sadly, that will be a huge advantage for me. I’ll start trying to find a way to expedite the process. </p>

<p>Also, can anyone offer some guidance as to whether I should attempt to take some science classes next semester (while trying to finish up studying for the MCAT and working full time), or just wait and take them over the summer and submit those scores individually to schools once I get the grade back in July/August? Thanks</p>

<p>I’ll keep you updated as to whether I get my card soon or not. I appreciate the blatant honesty of everyone, and the offer for further guidance from Matt. Should I need it, I will definitely take you up on that. Your story is very inspiring :)</p>

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<p>Okay, there’s some clarification necessary on my part. I didn’t mean to sound like I was saying NCG didn’t know what he was talking about- quite the opposite- I find his advice on this forum VERY beneficial, and I am certainly glad he is helping people out in these pre-med topics.
What I was really trying to say was just that it is possible to get into a U.S. allopathic school with the projected stats we were discussing, and without URM status. For more detail, read on :). </p>

<p>mcat2- you’re exactly right in that depending on your state, those stats can certainly keep you out of your IS schools, but I wasn’t trying to say otherwise. I didn’t mean to imply that the applicant would have their choice of med schools, far from it. (For that matter, extremely few people get accepted to multiple medical schools to begin with.) In the grand scheme of things, less than 5% (it’s more likely closer to 1%, but I don’t have this past year’s stats) of students have a real “choice” on where to go to med school if they’re applying to only allopathic schools. They go where they get in, if they get in, plain and simple. All I meant to say is that even with those stats, a 30+ MCAT and a compelling story can make you admissible without URM status. I did specify it wouldn’t be easy, far from it, just that it’s possible (and outside of my previous professional experience on that matter and seeing students do so at a number of different schools, my personal experience is proof of that). You just have to knock it out of the park on everything else.</p>

<p>norcalguy- You’re absolutely right that a 30 alone probably wouldn’t do it, and I probably should have been more specific. A 30+ (a 30 is just the average, or sometimes below average, MCAT admitted at many allopathic schools these days. I wasn’t as direct as I needed to be, but a 30**+** would look nice on her application. A 10 point jump on an MCAT is always noticeable, and it’s amazing the difference a few points can make when balancing out a low GPA.) </p>

<p>Your post also raised a good point that stresses a lot of medical school applicants out when they get that first rejection letter, so I’d also like to mention that normally the reason a student with those stats wouldn’t get admitted doesn’t have to do with the med school’s opinion of their ability to complete medical school- I’m sure there are a lot of students with 3.0 science GPAs, especially at challenging undergrad universities, that are intellectually capable of making it through medical school, and they know that- but with as many applicants as they have, they’re going to choose the “best” overall applicant. Why pick a 3.0 GPA applicant when you have 12 4.0 GPA applicants waiting in line, right? Well, that’s where it gets tricky and impossible to predict, and why people like me had a job. If all you had to do is keep an extremely high GPA and do well on the MCAT, pre-med advising would be a lot simpler :D. After all, if a GPA and MCAT were all a medical school needed to predict a student’s chance of success, supplemental applications and interviews wouldn’t be necessary. It’s not just the seemingly most likely to make it through by numbers they want, there have been 4.0 GPA/30+ MCAT students that struggled and quit/failed medical school and the admissions committees know that. (The flip side of this is of course that past performance is really all we have to base our estimate of future performance off of.) That’s where the stories, the interviews, the resumes, and everything come into play. They know that pure “book smarts” isn’t going to get a student through med school. Being able to do the material is just a small part of the process. Students need passion, drive, personality, people skills, and a work ethic that very few have to actually succeed and make it through medical school, and they try to figure out who has that “spark” from the supplementals, personal statements, and interviews. That’s where I think VandyHopeful can really make herself stand out, especially with her background. (Of course, she needs to get those interviews first, something that Native American status will likely do wonders for, and why we all want her to get that card!)</p>

<p>VandyHopeful- When are you submitting your AMCAS application? If you’re not applying to medical schools until next fall, you wouldn’t have to submit summer grades individually, and there’d still be time to include them with your AMCAS before it is submitted. You don’t need to get the AMCAS submitted until September (even to be ahead of most early deadlines/rolling cycle start dates) unless you are doing some sort of early decision process, but with your stats that’s probably not a wise use of time.
I know it’s a challenging time right now since you need to be directing full effort and enthusiasm both at raising your science GPA and getting the highest MCAT score possible, but remember your long term reason for doing this, and keep your nose to the grindstone. Let us know how things go, and if there’s anything else we can help with. </p>

<p>As a side note- don’t rule out US osteopathic schools all together. They’re a good option for many students, and may be a more realistic option considering how the stats come out in the end. At any rate- keep up the hard work, and deal with worrying about this stuff when the time comes.
-Matt</p>