<p>you didn't make a point! You thought investment bankers were traders! You STILL have no idea what ibankers do beyond the wikipedia definition...you found out they raise money woo, but do you know what an entry level banker does? They make pitch books on powerpoint and scrub numbers. Why do people keep talking out of their @$$es on this forum about topics they know NOTHING about, and then find the need to make further @$$es of themselves by continuing to argue, and somehow thinking ad hominem attacks (as I said a few post prior ironically enough) and condescension will somehow make them correct?</p>
<p>
[quote]
You simply can't argue the point so you decided to go on an irrelevant tangent.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It might seem like a strawman argument but what Matt is saying is actually pretty relevant. In post #92 you were generalizing your experiences in IT and real estate with passion leading to success to cover areas of finance such as investment banking as well. He's saying that you can't make any valid claims about how those same rules would apply to investment banking when you don't even know what the job entails. </p>
<p>However, I will say that it seems Matt is also generalizing the investment banking perspective of "no one enjoys the work in their entry-level jobs" when that might not be the case in IT, for example.</p>
<p>I've worked with investment banks on some of my deals and I've read Liars Poker. I don't claim to be an expert on Investment Banking nor do I want to be nor did I say that investment bankers traded stock. The only thing I know or care to know about entry level investment bankers is that if I became one, I would more than likely be in a lower tax bracket (28%).</p>
<p>What is your fascination with entry level positions? Since when does someone become successful by staying in an entry level position?</p>
<p>
[quote]
He's saying that you can't make any valid claims about how those same rules would apply to investment banking when you don't even know what the job entails.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>As you pointed out, I was not specifically talking about investment banking but about business as a whole. However, regardless of that, I would be very surprised if successful investment bankers did not love what they do.</p>
<p>As for entry-level, I'm not talking about entry-level. I'm talking about being successful. Perhaps some people think being entry-level is successful, but what I'm talking about is seperating yourself from your peers and I believe the best way to do that is to be passionate about what you do regardless of what line of work you are in.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I've read Liars Poker.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Liars Poker is about traders, not investment bankers.</p>
<p>
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Since when does someone become successful by staying in an entry level position?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No one said that. </p>
<p>
[quote]
As for entry-level, I'm not talking about entry-level. I'm talking about being successful. Perhaps some people think being entry-level is successful, but what I'm talking about is seperating yourself from your peers and I believe the best way to do that is to be passionate about what you do regardless of what line of work you are in.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You are talking about how passion leads to success. It was brought up how that doesn't always apply to entry level positions. I don't see what your problem is with considering entry-level positions. Most people don't stay in them but everyone starts in them.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Liars Poker is about traders, not investment bankers.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Which is perhaps what caused my confusion. Given that the salesman and traders are engaged in investment banking activities for an investment bank I incorrectly assumed they would be considered "Investment Bankers" (ie one of several subsets).</p>
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It was brought up how that doesn't always apply to entry level positions. I don't see what your problem is with considering entry-level positions. Most people don't stay in them but everyone starts in them.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree that you may have a passion for something but still dislike a certain job. However, my original point (probably buried several pages back) was that you shouldn't chase a career if it doesn't interest you. These boards are filled with kids chasing money rather than their interests. One can work in a bad job for a while but I don't know how they could make a career out of working jobs they hate especially if they are working long hours.</p>
<p>
[quote]
These boards are filled with kids chasing money rather than their interests. One can work in a bad job for a while but I don't know how they could make a career out of working jobs they hate especially if they are working long hours.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yeah, I agree with you here. I think one should only bear an entry-level job they don't enjoy if it will lead to something they will enjoy.</p>
<p>
[quote]
This convo has kinda passed now, but its an issue that needs to be addressed.</p>
<p>I enjoy how everyone says you have to be "passionate about your job to succeed." The truth is - straight out of college- no matter where you work, you will be doing monkey/slave work - even if its a field you enjoy. Lets say you love sealions and go into marine biology...right out of college you'd mostly be sitting infront of a computer entering weather changes data into a computer. Also, even if you enjoy your job, you will grow bored of it...much like I loved the show 24 and am currently sick of it. Furthermore, no one knows if they'll enjoy a job until they actually do it, and an internship really doesn't present close to a whole picture...basing your job choice on what you "enjoy" is at best an ambigious idea that doesn't hold up to analysis.</p>
<p>For ibanking: even if you "enjoy" math or enjoy "problem solving" and compared to someone who "enjoys making money," you are no better off. You sit in front of a computer and model all day. Its repetitive and isn't overly challenging beyond the first few months. No one enjoys this..you can say you enjoy pitching deals, or that you enjoy the competitive spirit...but none of this is present to atleast Vice president level. To tell people they should only do investment banking if they like it is a poor statement (although you can make an arguement that the hours are too much), telling people that they won't succeed if they don't like it and only are doing it for the money is an even worse statement (no one really likes it, the few that claim to, generally mean they love the lifestyle/prestige/career advancement it gives).</p>
<p>Infact I would go as far as to say that doing a job because you like the money and lifestyle is MORE motivation than liking the job for the job itself. If you enjoy the lifestyle you have - or want even more- you're going to try your darn hardest to maintain your job and get promoted; whereas if you do it because you "enjoy doing it" you will eventually get bored and stop caring.</p>
<p>I work in the financial world, and I can tell you that NO ONE enjoys the "job" at entry level. The best anyone comes to "enjoying" the job is that they like the "experience," but again the experience is just so they can make more money in the future.</p>
<p>The people who do best in finance are the people who have the right combination of intelligence and social aptitude, passion for the job does not matter at all unless the disdain for your causes you to stop working or trying (which it won't if you are addicted to your lifestyle).</p>
<p>If you disagree with me, please use a logical argument and not the ad hominem attacks or strawman arguments or the sparase anecdotal evidence that is used everywhere throught this forum.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>THANK YOU DUDE!!! FINALLY!! SOMEONE ELSE WHO GETS IT!! THANK YOU!!</p>
<p>again, Wega, you refuse to accept the fact that money CAN be used as a source for motivation as much as loving management can be used as source for motivation for a manager. Until you understand how far people are willing to go for money, your opinion will never change which is why I stopped arguing with you. Some people live to gloat about their fancy porsche, their boob job or what have you, and are willing to go to extremes to work for it! This is just as strong of a motivation as someone who actually likes the job, and if the guy who likes money more is smarter, he will eventually be more successful.</p>
<p>EDIT: and btw, you're trying to make an example of me? Go ahead. Case in point:</p>
<p>I am motivated quite a bit by money, which is why I'm spending literally hours scouring the board asking questions and such while other kids who might care about say business are out partying during the summer. So I'm sorry, but you can easily be successful even if your goal is money (which again I'll emphasize is not the TOTAL case for me, but a big part of it)</p>
<p>my views:</p>
<ol>
<li>Very few can claim that success in career has a direct co-relation with the so-called 'enjoying the job' notion.</li>
<li>Even in the case of medical professionals, where the mind set is very important, right from the beginning, the success is not contingent upon 'enjoying the profession'.</li>
<li>Most of us, go with the wave. Like the wave for 'Computer Professionals', 'Bio-Technologists', and tomorrow it could be 'Energy Specialists'.</li>
<li>Yes. Money remained an important motivator for most of us. So, a job in the 'Wall Street' or that in a top end 'Law Firm', will attract a sizeable population of students. This is without assessing the personal strengths vis-a-vis the job requirements. </li>
<li>However, as one grows in life, one tends to find enjoyment in what one is doing! That is a fact of life. And you can still make good money, even if you don't enjoy the job:)</li>
</ol>
<p>
[quote]
3. Most of us, go with the wave. Like the wave for 'Computer Professionals', 'Bio-Technologists', and tomorrow it could be 'Energy Specialists'.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Everyone keeps mentioning "most of us" but "most of us" are not that successful.</p>
<p>
[quote]
This convo has kinda passed now, but its an issue that needs to be addressed.</p>
<p>I enjoy how everyone says you have to be "passionate about your job to succeed." The truth is - straight out of college- no matter where you work, you will be doing monkey/slave work - even if its a field you enjoy. Lets say you love sealions and go into marine biology...right out of college you'd mostly be sitting infront of a computer entering weather changes data into a computer. Also, even if you enjoy your job, you will grow bored of it...much like I loved the show 24 and am currently sick of it. Furthermore, no one knows if they'll enjoy a job until they actually do it, and an internship really doesn't present close to a whole picture...basing your job choice on what you "enjoy" is at best an ambigious idea that doesn't hold up to analysis.</p>
<p>For ibanking: even if you "enjoy" math or enjoy "problem solving" and compared to someone who "enjoys making money," you are no better off. You sit in front of a computer and model all day. Its repetitive and isn't overly challenging beyond the first few months. No one enjoys this..you can say you enjoy pitching deals, or that you enjoy the competitive spirit...but none of this is present to atleast Vice president level. To tell people they should only do investment banking if they like it is a poor statement (although you can make an arguement that the hours are too much), telling people that they won't succeed if they don't like it and only are doing it for the money is an even worse statement (no one really likes it, the few that claim to, generally mean they love the lifestyle/prestige/career advancement it gives).</p>
<p>Infact I would go as far as to say that doing a job because you like the money and lifestyle is MORE motivation than liking the job for the job itself. If you enjoy the lifestyle you have - or want even more- you're going to try your darn hardest to maintain your job and get promoted; whereas if you do it because you "enjoy doing it" you will eventually get bored and stop caring.</p>
<p>I work in the financial world, and I can tell you that NO ONE enjoys the "job" at entry level. The best anyone comes to "enjoying" the job is that they like the "experience," but again the experience is just so they can make more money in the future.</p>
<p>The people who do best in finance are the people who have the right combination of intelligence and social aptitude, passion for the job does not matter at all unless the disdain for your causes you to stop working or trying (which it won't if you are addicted to your lifestyle).</p>
<p>If you disagree with me, please use a logical argument and not the ad hominem attacks or strawman arguments or the sparase anecdotal evidence that is used everywhere throught this forum.
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</p>
<p>shall i quote this entire post like cali.</p>
<p>This is a totally biased opinion and is representative of the industry that you are working in. Considering the size of that industry in relation to the whole, i would have to say, speak for yourself.</p>
<p>I made about a 10 paragraph post, then CC got an error, awesome. </p>
<p>The fact is,
1) happiness at a job is determined primarily by who you work with , not what you do </p>
<p>2) success has to do with, aside from intelligence and work ethic, how well you interact with your coworkers (interviews, bonuses, promotions, performance etc are all EXTREMELY subjective, and have more to do with politiking than your actual contributions)</p>
<p>3) The whole arguement for "enjoying job bring success" hinges on the "work ethic" point in 2). It basically boils down to the fact that if you enjoy what you are doing you will somehow work better and harder. However there's no psychological reason why the belief you will enjoy a new porsche (you can make the argument that it wont make you happier, but the person doesn't know this, so they will still be motivatied) won't motivate you as much as a "liking what you do."</p>
<p>4) Even the concept of "enjoying your job" is horribly ambigious much like the statement "you should 'be yourself." Everyone believes you should do the these two things, but very few could give an answer of what this means. Most jobs people enjoy, they don't even enjoy the activities, they enjoy the consequences. Doctors don't enjoy grueling 10 hour long surgeries, they enjoy seeing someone stay alive (although many actually are in for the money and prestige). There is only one "happiness," altruism can provide happiness, but its a means to and end, not a different, higher form of happiness that people make it out to be. Greed and other vices also bring people the aforementioned happiness. There are of course moral arguement that can be made, but that really falls aside the scope of this discussion. </p>
<p>5) remember the argument is that you don't need to enjoy your job to succeed....NOT that you should enjoy your job to be happy in life...these are two vastly different arguments. </p>
<p>I know I said some controversial things, some of which may not apply to me, but remember this is about what causes success, and secondarily, what causes happiness (point 4 isn't really even important for my arguement, just decided to throw it in for the people that STILL believe you need to "enjoy your job" to succeed at).</p>
<p>
[quote]
shall i quote this entire post like cali.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>lol WOW. Why am I getting sucked into everything now that doesn't agree with Wega and you?? As you can see, its a 2:Everyone else in favor of us. I wonder who wins? </p>
<p>Seriously, if we lived in an idealistic world where doctors didn't care about money and only fixing you, lawyers wanted to do what is right according to law rather than making money, your ideas would hold true. But sadly, life is dominated by superficiality and greed. Hell, there is even evidence that possibly some people are born bad. Why am I stating this? Its because you guys assume that everyone just works to do what is right, when frankly, (if working solely for money is morally wrong, which is debatable) that really doesn't hold true. And the fact that you 2 are so unwilling to change your minds is absurd, especially when almost everyone else here agrees with me.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Some people are simply smarter than the others, and no matter how much fun you may have studying for the MCAT or w/e it is, you won't always be able to beat them because they are simply better. Everyone has seen that person that without studying gets an A while another person who works his butt of gets a B, its a similar thing here. True, studying will be less of a pain, but in the end, you still fail, and they succeed.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is a quote from one of your posts. THIS is what i found painful to read.</p>
<p>Matistotle, again, speak for yourself and your profession. There are plenty of professions that do not fit with you generalizations. The job market goes beyond banking and corporate matters. I dont ever remember saying an enjoyable job = success. I don't care. But you can refrain from your OVER generalizations. Your first post was a horrid attempt at categorizing the entire work force. Your second is again very biased and reflects the point of view of JUST you and is a representation of YOUR profession. NOT all professions, so i am sorry if i am going to question and dispute what you have to say, or rather how you say it. You may very well be right when only considering a sub category or something or someone, but not all....</p>
<p>umm okay. Welcome to life. Thats how it is. Some people are seemingly born with a silver fork in their mouth, and have different capabilities. Life isn't fair. Thats just the truth, and sometimes, the truth hurts, as it evidently did to you...</p>
<p>And dude, he's not being biased. Again, you just refuse to accept that your idealism doesn't apply to real life. Sure, it would be nice if it did, but it just doesn't. Again, you have provided no concrete evidence of how your ideas are correct, and when you attempt to, you do what you are accusing him of doing: over-generalizing and using only your SUPPOSED encounters/anecdotes to support your reasoning and assuming it holds true to everyone. Seriously, if you want to quote his whole post, at least read it and see that he doesn't want your stupid attacks (which you do by snottily replying, speak for yourself). Name one solid idea to substantiate your idealistic claim you have given that isn't based off of anecdotal or personal experience. </p>
<p>People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones at others you know...</p>
<p>Life isnt fair? It is easy enough to know that there is a very real possibility that someone less talented, yet harder working, will succeed over someone who is talented and not hard working. Easy to understand concept.</p>
<p>If his concept relates to ALL, explain it in regards to grade school teaching, athletics coaching and academics. Success can be monitored in a multitude of ways. You seem to be missing out on the fact that i am not arguing about passion and how it correlates with success. His whole argument is based on the assumption that your definition of success is the same as his.</p>
<p>Everybody please don't bother wasting your reasoning on California_love. He thinks people with high IQs automatically ace MCATs, etc. He think hard works amount to nothing. What can you tell him to change his mind? Nothing.</p>
<p>okay wow, again. Did I not say that people who are smart but don't even try aren't actually smart in the end? Just because you disagree with me, PLEASE don't misquote me. Thats just ignorant.</p>
<p>And please don't act like we're the only one's being stubborn. You guys won't budge either, its just that we have a right to be stubborn since you've given us no valid reasoning whatsoever besides stupid attacks (cough MK)</p>
<p>we don't need to give you reasoning. just try and see if your intelligence alone will help you succeed at anything. i know brilliant people who work in starbucks. people with 2200+ SATs who couldn't succeed in college because they didn't want to put in the hard work. when you go to college maybe you can talk california love. your in high school and have little-no idea about academics.</p>
<p>at least I know your doesn't equal you are, so how much do you know about academics?</p>
<p>I also know plenty of people that spend 2 hours studying for a test and get a worse grade than me who only reviews the stuff, and kids that don't study and do better than me.</p>
<p>And again, for the thousandth time. Kids that are brilliant but don't put any effort are not smart. They are wasted talent, and aren't who I'm referring to for the last time. I'm not going to say it again. My point is that there are some kids that are just plain better, and thus, using an idealistic claim that having passion will eventually pull one through despite having kids that are smarter than you and don't have to work as hard is just too optimistic IMO. Besides, the ones that are smarter than the pack are normally smart enough to know when they need to make that extra push to stay ahead, and THESE are the ones I'm referring to.</p>
<p>EDIT: Btw, "hard works" was another GREAT example of how much you know about academics <em>rolls eyes</em></p>