<p>And also, the harder you work, the more successful you are. You can't compare two different fields. Of course a surgeon makes more than a "typical" businessman. Surgeon is the #1 specialty in medical school. But if a surgeon spends more time analyzing his patient and does research about the problem, he would naturally do better than the one who does less work, assuming they have the same aptitude. If you don't work hard, you are only cheating yourself. You are easting your God-given talents and potential :p</p>
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And again, those are lawyers that get weeded out from law for whatever reason.
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</p>
<p>I was referring to lawyers in their late 40s with 19+ years of experience.</p>
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Because you didn't have the balls to take a tough class, you are behind your peers who have taken that class and have that knowledge.
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</p>
<p>Only one of my peers from my HS has a decidedly higher income than me, and she's a porn star and I don't work (and she was kicked out of our school..and I wouldn't be surprised if she never took Calculus either). Why exactly did I need to take Calculus?</p>
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Just because you have the capacity to do it, doesn't change the fact that you ARE dumber at math than those that did it.
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</p>
<p>Actually, having the capacity to learn is what intelligence is all about. They would have some additional knowledge about math, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily better at math. However, that was HS. If you cut corners in the real world, regardless of your intelligence, you will generally be less successful than your peers.</p>
<p>im tired of helping people talking about working the fewest hours, cutting corners, getting paid a lot. just find something you enjoy and work hard. life is not simply about money. what are you goin to do with all your money? find time to spend with family, friends, raise a family, i dunno. volunteer... geez... all this talk about making 6 digits right out of college. my goal is to make 6 digits by the time i retire.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And also, the harder you work, the more successful you are. You can't compare two different fields. Of course a surgeon makes more than a "typical" businessman. Surgeon is the #1 specialty in medical school. But if a surgeon spends more time analyzing his patient and does research about the problem, he would naturally do better than the one who does less work, assuming they have the same aptitude. If you don't work hard, you are only cheating yourself. You are easting your God-given talents and potential
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</p>
<p>sorry but surgery isnt the number one speciality in med school, check your facts. Its one of the least sought after actually. Derms is the most. And again, no. The fact is, some jobs pay higher by the hour, and thus you can work more and still earn less. Look at some people who have to work two jobs but are still living paycheck to paycheck. Its an unfortunate reality, so no, your argument still doesn't hold true.</p>
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I was referring to lawyers in their late 40s with 19+ years of experience.
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</p>
<p>fair enough, I misinterpreted that, so my bad.</p>
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Only one of my peers from my HS has a decidedly higher income than me, and she's a porn star and I don't work (and she was kicked out of our school..and I wouldn't be surprised if she never took Calculus either). Why exactly did I need to take Calculus?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>see again, how many people make it as a porn star? And We've already established the fact that you are also an exception (how many people retire at 28??), so what you say still doesn't hold true to the general population.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Actually, having the capacity to learn is what intelligence is all about. They would have some additional knowledge about math, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily better at math. However, that was HS. If you cut corners in the real world, regardless of your intelligence, you will generally be less successful than your peers.
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</p>
<p>sorry, but thats incorrect. Just having potential doesn't do anything. To use a physics example, a boulder permanently perched on a higher tree (thus having more potential energy) does less damage that a boulder in free fall from a lower tree and a boulder placed a tree even lower than the second one will do less damage than the second one in freefall, but still more than the one with the most potential. Similarly, you can have all the potential in the world, but if you don't put it motion, it really doesn't matter. When I'm talking about intelligence, I'm talking about people that ARE naturally better than many, but also still have some drive and want to succeed. They might not care as much about the topic, but still want to be successful. These are the ones that succeed, not just ones with potential, or people that only have passion (the 3rd "boulder") but very little substance to begin with. And those that have all the potential but don't use it frankly aren't smart. Those people are lazy, and thus won't learn the material, even if it does take less time for them to pick it up as opposed to everyone else. As far as cutting corners, wouldn't you say avoiding calculus when one has the potential to do so is like cutting corners? I would, unless it was a very very good reason to, so I don't see how that statement defends you. And the reason you should learn calculus? Again, its not just the fact that you learn how to find the instantaneous rate of change of an object (admittedly, who besides some engineers uses that?), but again, the reasoning and practice you get in looking at abstract and challenging processes is what you lack by avoiding it. This is what my teacher tells students and now I'm starting to realize what she's talking about. I've become smarter not just because I understood the concepts and got an A in the class, but my reasoning has improved, and thats what is important in ANY FIELD. I would again comment on how limited your perception is, but honestly, I don't feel like sounding like any more of an @$$ than I have already (which I apologize for, because frankly, thats not necessary and I shouldn't be questioning someone of you who is more successful than I can dream of as lacking maturity).</p>
<p>I certainly cut corners by not taking calculus. It wasn't that big of a deal in HS. It's a bigger deal to cut corners in college, and an even bigger deal in the real world. </p>
<p>Intelligence, by definition, is the capacity to learn. In some fortune 500 companies, a high IQ and a bad work ethic could result in a long career with enough money to raise a family. However, your career will be uneventful and relatively unsuccessful. If this satisfies you then fine.</p>
<p>However, I would recommend finding something you like because that makes it a lot easier to work hard. Then, go to a company that is demanding (ie a consulting company, a big 4 firm, etc) which will help you get ahead early in your career. Eventually, you will have options to take less demanding jobs, and then you will be much more marketable than had you taken the easy route, and will be able to demand a much higher pay (than u would have otherwise).</p>
<p>since when has calculus become abstract?</p>
<p>And shall we define what smart means?</p>
<p>calculus is very abstract south. Picturing a graph revolving around an axis for example is a pretty "out there" type of concept and requires a lot of visualization, which is what I term abstract.</p>
<p>Calculus is practical, not abstract.</p>
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[quote]
And shall we define what smart means?
[/quote]
95th Percentile.</p>
<p>OP,</p>
<p>One of my good friends is an accountant. You can make decent amount of money as an accountant if you have a CPA, which isn't easy but not insanely difficult either. You won't make tons liike some of those in investment. But with an accounting education, you can get into investment if you want, just like any other majors do (including finance; actually you will be more prepared than many in tasks like analyzing financial statements). The difference is you will have something that's very practical and useful to fall back on if that ibanking..etc doesn't work out (many people can't even break into it) since finding an accounting job is pretty easy.</p>
<p>This convo has kinda passed now, but its an issue that needs to be addressed. </p>
<p>I enjoy how everyone says you have to be "passionate about your job to succeed." The truth is - straight out of college- no matter where you work, you will be doing monkey/slave work - even if its a field you enjoy. Lets say you love sealions and go into marine biology...right out of college you'd mostly be sitting infront of a computer entering weather changes data into a computer. Also, even if you enjoy your job, you will grow bored of it...much like I loved the show 24 and am currently sick of it. Furthermore, no one knows if they'll enjoy a job until they actually do it, and an internship really doesn't present close to a whole picture...basing your job choice on what you "enjoy" is at best an ambigious idea that doesn't hold up to analysis. </p>
<p>For ibanking: even if you "enjoy" math or enjoy "problem solving" and compared to someone who "enjoys making money," you are no better off. You sit in front of a computer and model all day. Its repetitive and isn't overly challenging beyond the first few months. No one enjoys this..you can say you enjoy pitching deals, or that you enjoy the competitive spirit...but none of this is present to atleast Vice president level. To tell people they should only do investment banking if they like it is a poor statement (although you can make an arguement that the hours are too much), telling people that they won't succeed if they don't like it and only are doing it for the money is an even worse statement (no one really likes it, the few that claim to, generally mean they love the lifestyle/prestige/career advancement it gives). </p>
<p>Infact I would go as far as to say that doing a job because you like the money and lifestyle is MORE motivation than liking the job for the job itself. If you enjoy the lifestyle you have - or want even more- you're going to try your darn hardest to maintain your job and get promoted; whereas if you do it because you "enjoy doing it" you will eventually get bored and stop caring. </p>
<p>I work in the financial world, and I can tell you that NO ONE enjoys the "job" at entry level. The best anyone comes to "enjoying" the job is that they like the "experience," but again the experience is just so they can make more money in the future. </p>
<p>The people who do best in finance are the people who have the right combination of intelligence and social aptitude, passion for the job does not matter at all unless the disdain for your causes you to stop working or trying (which it won't if you are addicted to your lifestyle). </p>
<p>If you disagree with me, please use a logical argument and not the ad hominem attacks or strawman arguments or the sparase anecdotal evidence that is used everywhere throught this forum.</p>
<p>mattistotle,</p>
<p>The point is that "California_Love" is looking for a high paying job and is giving little to no attention to his interest. He is mainly looking at $s and has considered accounting, finance, economics, consulting, MIS, patent law, and supply chain (that's just off the top of my head).</p>
<p>The point is that you can make money in any field. The people that make the big money are generally the ones that have a passion for it. If you don't like your job you would be stupid to stay in that field unless you enjoy the field and feel that you will like your job more once you are promoted. </p>
<p>I find it hard to believe that people don't like finance. In fact, I know people who aren't even in finance that have a passion for the stock market and various other financial markets. I came from an IT background and we had people that loved programming and those that hated it. Those that hated it generally only lasted a few years in it. We had others who loved project management. The ones that loved their job were generally the more successful ones.</p>
<p>I personally hated programming and did not have a passion for IT. My passion was in real estate and I was able to make more money in real estate on the side than I made working in IT full-time.</p>
<p>mattistotle,</p>
<p>I agree with you for the most part.</p>
<p>Investment banking is not the stock market.
Sales and Trading is something you can enjoy, but again, you "enjoy" the fact that you made the correct trade and made money off it. Although a bit of the joy comes from the superiority complex it can give you, i'd view joy from that as on the same level as joy from money. You don't get the joy of "impacting the world" which is what most people generally define "enjoy" as for some reason...Also, trading is stressful as hell, sure its fun to have a portfolio on your computer and go "woo i made 7% this year I rock" (even better if you don't understand beta and alpha and realize that the sp500 index fund vastly outperformed you). However, when you are stuck in front of a computer screen for every second market is open, and a few bad trades can get you fired, the fun diminishs. Its not something you enjoy I would say, but much rather you are selectively remembering only the relief you get after being stressed all day over your performance and then making a good trade. </p>
<p>But I'm going off topic, the point is S&T isn't investment banking, if you realized what it was, you'd realize the lack of people truly enjoying it. For examples, do you think anyone enjoys being a garbage man (aside from wierd fetishes)?</p>
<p>I never said it was. You said you worked in the financial world. Don't twist my words. If I worked in the financial world I would hope to have a passion for the markets that I was involved in.</p>
<p>Are you an investment banker? if so, what exactly do you deal with?</p>
<p><em>sigh</em> why does everyone on this board think investment banking deals with trading stocks and investing in "markets"</p>
<p>Because 98.36% on this board won't get in.</p>
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<em>sigh</em> why does everyone on this board think investment banking deals with trading stocks and investing in "markets"
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</p>
<p>I didn't say it deals with trading stocks. I am no expert on investment banking, but when I think of investment banking I think of raising funds for capital markets, trading securities, dealing with mergers etc. I'm sure there are a lot of other avenues, but investment banking without a market doesn't make much sense to me. In fact, doing business without a market makes no sense to me. Feel free to explain and feel free to address the other points I made. I'm trying to understand why someone would take advice about how to be successful from someone, who apparently has had very limited success himself.</p>
<p>you said "markets" not "a market." It is clear that you meant things similiar to stock markets, and not "a market to sell my goods," nor the raising money side of capital markets. By your definition of ibanking its also painfully obvious that you just went on to wikipedia to look up the what it means. In order to be condescending, you might want to maybe know something?</p>
<p>I was referring to securities markets. Your diversion of attention from the topic at hand is like a dog tucking his tail between his leg after being scolded. You simply can't argue the point so you decided to go on an irrelevant tangent.</p>