<p>Comparing a two-year degree nurse to a four-year degree nurse does not make a useful or logically valid argument against starting one’s four-year degree at a community college, which is what this thread is about.</p>
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<p>In writing I doubt you’ll ever see this if that’s what you’re looking for, but upon talking with those in med school admissions they tell me it is because they don’t know the caliber of the class at the cc. Some are decent. Many aren’t. They want to see that a student can take the weeder classes at the 4 year while tackling other college classes and issues in order to gauge whether they can hold up in med school.</p>
<p>They do allow for differences for those who decided later on to pursue med school, but if a student goes from high school on a pre-med path taking the cc route is perceived as trying to take the “easier” route - a characteristic not desired by med schools.</p>
<p>Students who are heading toward pre-med should have the grades to garner nice scholarships elsewhere. They may need to pick schools carefully based upon whether they need merit or need-based aid.</p>
<p>I work in our local high school. It doesn’t take much in higher level grades to get some nice merit awards from mid tier schools. The list of awards at our school is rather lengthy (percentage-wise) and our school considers a 1500 (all three sections) SAT score to be really good. We rarely get NMSF or NMC students.</p>
<p>If a student is marginal GPA wise or has taken a few years off to work, then decides to head for a degree - or even is an adult wanting to break through the non-degree ceiling, then yes, cc is a good start.</p>
<p>If a student can’t get need-based or merit aid, then yes, cc is a good start for many majors. I’d encourage them to try 4 year schools anyway to see how the finances end up - and to try schools farther from home as geographical diversity can bring nice aid.</p>
<p>If you live in an area with top ccs, they could be a good start for many majors.</p>
<p>But to uniformly tell someone this is the way they should go - or not - isn’t a good idea. My preference is still (for most) to say not - mainly since the cc classes I’ve seen have not been up to par with 4 year equivalents. Had my experiences been different, perhaps my views would be too. I’ve seen many students who have told me cc did not adequately prepare them - and a few who have said it did (but they didn’t transfer in to high level schools either).</p>
<p>Would you tell them, also, Creekland, to check out the four year graduation rate at the four year college they are better off attending, or do you just think a four year institution is automatically going to be a “better” school.</p>
<p>I would be surprised, given the new situation in medicine (incomewise), and the cost of medical school, if more and more pre-meds don’t start at CC, if only for pragmatic, cost-based reasons.</p>
<p>the upside on the income for a doc is not what it once was, nor will it be later what it is now.</p>
<p>I definitely tell them to pick a 4 year school carefully whether it’s for pre-med or not. Not all 4 years schools are comparable either, esp pending major.</p>
<p>Out of curiosity I just brought this subject (sans pre-med) up around the lunch table at school (10 present - 9 teachers and a student teacher) prior to my last post. I just figured I might as well post it even if it is just a really informal poll. None went the cc route for their degrees. When asked whether it was a good path to suggest to a graduating student the consensus ended up being no, then morphed into, “well, I suppose for the right student who can’t really handle a 4 year school it’s a good idea.”</p>
<p>And our school sends several to cc - usually those who couldn’t make it into a decent 4 year school with aid.</p>
<p>And that ^ goes to show you how different CC’s are perceived and attended in our country. In my area, where four year publics are expensive, it’s very common to attend a CC or a satellite school of Penn State or Pitt for two years and then transfer. No wonder people that have a CC that is looked down on think that overall people that attend them in other parts of the country are not so smart.</p>
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<p>This is common here and not nearly as frowned upon, but it is still the main option for those who couldn’t get into their respective main campuses.</p>
<p>I agree that ones perception comes from what is around locally.</p>
<p>Regarding the RN degree at a 2 year vs BSN at a 4 year discussion-it is a different education in a number of significant ways. Traditionally, hospitals, which have the highest pay, hire either ADN grads or BSN, and that varies widely by geography. </p>
<p>It also varies widely by where we are in the RN job cycle. Right now, jobs are tight, and hospitals in my highly educated area are starting to require much more of their beginning staff to have a BSN. In the last few decades, they have been desperate for RNs at times, and school of origin matters less. Either ADN or BSN prepare you for hospital and nursing home work. The BSN at least traditionally, prepares for community health as well. In this area, the BSN is entry level for management, community health, school nurse, and many other jobs. In rural areas, less educated areas, there are more opportunities for the ADN grad, or at least were traditionally, prior to these tough economic times. Years ago, ADN grad were thought superior in terms of ability to come out of school and function on the job. These days, the BSN programs seem to be doing a better job in terms of practical skills as well as theory. </p>
<p>A student could start at the CC, complete prerequisites and transfer to a 4 year school for the BSN. Do I see a difference at work in the BSN vs ADN grads? Not really, though I appreciate the most, the wider perspectives from those who have a degree in something else and then go back to school for nursing.</p>
<p>One scenario that I haven’t seen mentioned was the case for my daughter.</p>
<p>She was accepted into every college she applied to except her #1 choice, UW-Madison. When her appeal was denied, she enrolled at the local CC that had a transfer agreement. She earned top grades at the CC and was accepted as a transfer and directly into the nursing program for her junior year. She graduated in four years and saved enough money to pay for her grad school.</p>
<p>It wasn’t what she planned for but, it has worked out really well for her.</p>
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<p>This is ridiculous, surely there’s more to a college education than the name on your diploma (or at least, that’s what all the threads about Ivy league schools say). Community colleges might be great for some people, but they won’t work for everyone. For example, over half my classes I took freshman and sophomore years just aren’t offered at CCs, and that’s assuming that classes that supposedly cover the same material are taught the same way everywhere (which is not true). I’m not unique in this either, I’ve had friends whose course schedules did not have a single class that could be offered at a CC even by freshman year.</p>
<p>And of course that doesn’t include other factors, like EC activities, the types of peer groups found at CC’s versus other colleges, research opportunities (the fields I’ve done research in are not represented at all in the CC near my home).</p>
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<p>THAT is exactly why CC’s have articulation agreements with four year universities. Have you read this thread?</p>
<p>^^^ His argument against ‘the only reason to not attend cc first is due to the scholarships for freshmen’ is perfectly valid. There are majors that aren’t suitable for cc the first two years due to the classes required and their sequence.</p>
<p>Articulation agreements just show which classes will transfer and which won’t. They won’t tell someone they’ll need 5 or 6 years to complete their course of major (for certain majors) if they take gen ed courses at a cc.</p>
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<p>That is generally the case, but some of the most advanced students will want to take junior/senior level courses as freshmen/sophomores; this option is not available at community college. Also, there can be some majors at some four year schools with needed required courses not commonly found at community colleges, so that transferring students need to take a lot of “catch up” courses after transferring.</p>
<p>However, this is likely to be a significant consideration for only a minority of college-bound students. These same students are the ones who are most likely to be able to get the big merit awards for going directly to four year schools as freshmen.</p>
<p>The more typical college bound student (perhaps a 3.0 HS GPA, only a few, if any, AP courses, from a household with income around the median) is not likely to get a big merit award as a college freshman, and is not likely to exhaust the offerings at community college before transferring, especially if choosing a major that needs just the more common courses like English, math, history, biology, economics, etc…</p>
<p>Of course, some very strong students do start at community college for various reasons, and become successful after transferring, sometimes going to top PhD programs in their major after graduating from their four year schools with bachelor’s degrees.</p>
<p>For a student who is well prepared academically and has no financial issues, I would not consider it an acceptable option. The CC’s that I’m familiar with do not have the level of rigor that four year colleges have. In our area, the equivalent CC classes are not as rigorous as the AP classes. S took a CC class during high school. When he took the equivalent class in college, he said it took 3 weeks to cover what was covered in one semester at CC. I think it’s a myth that classes are equivalent at any college. I doubt intro calculus is the same at a CC, a third tier directional, and at MIT.</p>
<p>Many families I know that have sent their kids to CC find that they still can’t graduate in two years. Three seems to be more of the norm, even when there’s an articulation agreement and they thought they were choosing their courses wisely. There always seem to be stories about a kid who started at CC and transferred to HYPS, etc. It may happen, and it’s probably exceedingly rare given the low numbers of transfers accepted at these schools. The CC route is definitely a better option for kids who will be transferring to a state school.</p>
<p>Poetgrl questioned if another poster knew the graduation rate for a school that was being considered instead of a CC and wondered if people just assume that a four year school is better. The numbers that I’ve found say that about 22% of students nationally who enroll full time in a CC graduate in 3 years. In our area, 12% graduate in three years and about 30% graduate in six years. I wouldn’t want my kid at any school with those numbers, whether it was a CC or a four year school.</p>
<p>For academically prepared kids with financial issues it’s an acceptable option. For kids who have weak academic records, maturity issues, etc., it’s an option. However, for academically prepared kids without financial issues who have stats to get into top privates, state flagships, etc., I don’t see any advantage.</p>
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ucbalumnus - Good point, and one I had not considered. </p>
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Do you know that for a fact? I know several students that started at one of our CC’s knowing they would transfer and took all of their credits with them AND graduated in four years total. It’s really not that uncommon. From what I understand it’s very transparent. We’re not talking about University of Phoenix.</p>
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<p>I don’t see how an articulation agreement is going to make up for the fact that most CCs don’t offer a class in Real Analysis, a class I and many of my friends took freshman year, for example.</p>
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<p>While it is true that an advanced student will not find a junior-level course like real analysis at a community college, very few college bound students are sufficiently advanced for that to be a big problem for them.</p>
<p>Indeed, the median four year college bound student is probably behind the normal sequence in math, needing precalculus math courses before taking freshman calculus.</p>
<p>For those students that took classes at a CC while in high school, were they regular CC courses or the ones they have for high school students? I know at my local CC, all the high school students are in the same sections of the course with other high school students. That might make a difference if comparing rigor to what is typically offered.</p>
<p>My guys have taken classes with regular cc students. Very few have been in high school with DE. My oldest was the only high schooler in his cc English class. Middle was the only in his Effective Speaking class and one of two in his sophomore level Microbio class. He took those his junior year of high school. This year he was the only in his English class.</p>
<p>Our high school does offer “College in the High School” classes, but those are taught in the high school. They are supposed to be the same content, but who knows?</p>
<p>I know two who took the cc route and both successfully transferred to a top UC. One is premed biochem major and graduating on time.</p>
<p>D1’s dual credit were some of each. Online were the same courses open to anyone. The teacher probably didn’t even know d was a hs student. Sometimes, though, it’s just logistically easier to have all the hs kids in one section and have a cc teacher go to them. D1 took the cc version of a course I’ve taught at several 4 year schools. I didn’t see where anybody could accuse her of lack of rigor. That course was a bear.</p>