Is attending community college and transferring considered an acceptable option?

Parent Cafe
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<p>@happymom, agree on the deplorable state of foreign language instruction in this country. Truly a national disgrace. Aaargh! If S wants to continue in his language in college, he’ll have some immersion opportunities. At minimum, study abroad; but some of the schools to which he’s applied also offer language houses on campus – not immersion, but a nice opportunity to get more practice.</p>

<p>@reeinaz: My son’s Calc 3 course at CC is part of the regular curriculum and not intended for high school students. Only one section of the course was offered last semester and more than half of the students in it happened to be high school students. S thought it was extremely rigorous. The CC only offers one math course – differential equations – after that one, and he decided not to weigh down his last semester of high school with it, even though he was told it’s much easier than Calc 3. If he were planning to major in math, starting at CC would be impossible as he would’ve taken differential this semester and thus be done with the CC’s entire math catalog before graduating HS.</p>

<p>Most of the CC math teachers are very good. I’m sure they would be capable of teaching more advanced courses if there were enough interest. </p>

<p>For his junior year, S planned to take English at the CC instead of AP Lang, and a friend warned me to not let him do that without first checking with a college he wants to attend. So I called the admissions office at my alma mater and asked if they would prefer to see AP Lang or a CC English course on his transcript, and the admissions officer told me “absolutely AP Lang.” He said the reason is that CC programs vary so dramatically and they have no way of judging the quality. I suspect this variation is why it’s impossible to make any generalizations about whether starting at CC is a smart move.</p>

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<p>My D has taken classes at the CC as a high school student the last two years. Her classes are at the CC and her professors do not know she is a HS student. They do offer HS dual enrollment classes at our local HS that are listed as college courses. The difference is that the class at the actual CC is offered in one semester. For example last year D could have taken English 110 at the HS or the CC. The class at the HS ran Sept to June at the CC Sept to Dec.
I have a friend who has a PhD in math from a top ranked program. She took her first two years at our local CC. She felt the quality of instruction was excellent.</p>

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<p>I think CC statistics are misunderstood, and the schools underestimated, for two reasons. They are largely judged on how rapidly people finish the program, and whether they transfer to 4-year schools. Those are primary concerns to many of the parents on the is forum. But a CC has a broader mission. While offering the first two years of undergrad to the traditional college student, the CC is also SUPPOSED to offer a photography class for the empty-nester who always wanted to take one, or Accounting 101 and 102 for the clerical employee in a bookkeeping department who has been encouraged by the boss to get a little bit of formal training. These students aren’t undermining the traditional college freshman or sophomore’s endeavors, but they do create room for the CC’s statistics to be misinterpreted.</p>

<p>Being open enrollment institutions, there will also be some kids at a CC who really do not belong in college – anywhere – at least at that phase of their lives, and the CC is usually a last-ditch effort on the part of the family to face facts.</p>

<p>The kid who comes out of HS with college aspirations, a 2.8 - 3.2 gpa, 950 -1150 on the SAT, no Honors or AP on the HS transcript, will almost certainly be sufficiently challenged for the first two years at a good CC. I have personally seen people with far better statistics go to strong CCs, get As, challenge themselves, and then transfer to elite schools (and continue on to good professional schools thereafter). There’s no footnote on the UG diploma.</p>

<p>In our state (in the northeast), state colleges cost $22,000 to $25,000 for in-staters, if you live on campus. Private colleges (not necessarily academically elite schools – in fact, some of them fall below the state directionals on the academic totem pole) run $35,000 to $55,000. (Some of these schools try to invoke the “chivas effect” by pricing themselves nominally at $45,000 or so, and then routinely offer “merit aid” of $10,000 or $15,000 to get the price down into the $30s, where they clear the market, and try to flatter you into enrollment in the process. They offer this “aid” to just about anybody, so it doesn’t mean much.)</p>

<p>But upper middle class families in this expensive area will stand at the far end of the national FAFSA line, and get NO need-based aid. So if Junior is not eligible for real merit aid at a school worth attending, you are looking at $100,000 to $250,000 cash out of pocket for UG. Starting at CC begins to look really good, financially. And then the small sections of the first and second year courses, and professors who are undistracted by research and graduate students, are a plus. If Junior succeeds, the last two years on a traditional campus await. Another plus at the CC – when the family is so hard-pressed to pay for the basic 8 semesters, the pressure is on the kid to “just finish”. Don’t change majors. Don’t ask for that semester abroad. Don’t double major. Just. Finish. before we run out of money. If the financial pressure can be eased by starting at the CC, there can be a financial cushion built in for special opportunities (or mishaps), leading to a better overall college experience.</p>

<p>If Junior is can’t see this, and is too frantic to start dorm life the first semester after HS, that is a red flag about what Junior’s true college wishes and intentions are, and a cause for concern in its own right. When this comes from a weaker student out of HS, this kind of kid seems likely to be one of the 60% who do not finish 4-year school in 6 years. (A sobering statistic.)</p>

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<p>Well said, fieldsports.</p>

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<p>fieldsports-I think the issue stems from your line “strong CC”. Some areas of the country have such a thing as a “strong CC” others do not. For those in an area where the CC’s are strong, they are a viable option. For those of us that live in areas where the CC’s are not strong, it is not a consideration for college bound kids, period.</p>

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<p>SteveMA, you are absolutely right, and you remind us all that there is no one-size-fits-all solution to college placement. A lot depends on where you happen to live. Two thirds of the people who enter our local CC do successfully transfer on to 4-year schools. My views are colored by that local reality.</p>

<p>When you consider the percentage of non-traditional dabblers that must be also enter its doors (and are fully entitled to be there) I must acknowledge that our particular CC is largely the equivalent of a lower-level state directional. (By “lower-level” I mean freshman and sophomore, not “low-end”.) With bachelor’s degree completion rates so low nationally, I wonder if our CC does better at successfully getting people to their junior year of college, than a lot of the four-year colleges do. Especially the less selective four-year schools. But that’s just what happens to be going on here; it definitely varies across the country.</p>

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<p>fieldsports–could it also be that your high schools are not doing enough to prepare kids for college? I think one reason that the CC’s here are not strong is that they are a step back from most of the “college prep” classes kids have available to them in the high schools here. Most kids relate that their 100 level college classes are not all that much more difficult than their high school classes, at least 1 semester of that class, so the transition is pretty easy. I think that makes a huge difference in their success rates too. In some of the high schools around here that aren’t that great of schools, you see more kids going to CC first and then maybe on to a 4 year, or maybe not.</p>

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<p>SteveMA–</p>

<p>What rot.</p>

<p>The kids from this area go to HYPSM, etc… at a very high rate, before diversity, the HS was a ‘feeder’ public, AND we have invested in our CC’s.</p>

<p>It’s def a “back up” and 99% go on to college, and top colleges, and the area is a wealthy and upper mid class ghetto, where kids come from legacy wealth, names you would recognize, AND our CC’s are strong.</p>

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<p>Do you think the stronger CCs are located in more populated areas and states?</p>

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<p>poetgrl–is that just your town or your entire area/state though? One town could be an oddity in an otherwise not so good school system. Would you say, move to 90% of the schools in your state and see similar results or is your school THE school everyone wants to attend?</p>

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<p>The entire suburban area outside of chicago has very, very strong public schools.</p>

<p>But, and this is the thing, I think the community colleges are good out here because there are extremely well educated people here who teach there, and they are here becuase of the city, whether they are married to someone who works there, or or whether they work there themselves, and still teach. It’s just a highly educated area, and so, there are highly educated resources available to the CC.</p>

<p>So, yes, this is possibly true, MD mom.</p>

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<p>Your final diploma is going to be from the university that you transfer to. Taking your first two years at a community college is not only smart financially, but often better academically. The classes are usually smaller and actually taught by professors, not TAs.
One caveat: at least in California, it is getting harder to transfer to the 4-year university of one’s choice because of the severe budget cuts, which show no signs of easing. There used to be transfer guarantee agreements between the CCs and CSUs/UCs, but they are getting more and more restrictive and expecting higher and higher GPAs.</p>

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<p>I am guessing that the wealthier counties in the Northeast, with more highly educated residents and a locally entrenched tradition of high quality k-12 public education, and public high schools that are favorably regarded by the most elite colleges in our country, tend to have higher-quality CCs. There is pressure on the trustees and the county government to keep the quality up.</p>

<p>I have friends who have moved in from other parts of the country, scandalized to think that affluent, highly-educated professional parents would send their kids to public school, and then they settle in and realize that the public high schools are where it’s at. When private high schools are used by people in these areas, it seem to be mostly because they wanted to send the kids away to boarding school, or they keep them home but want them to go to a religiously-affiliated or single-sex school. There are a few secular coed day prep schools, and people seem to be hard-pressed to explain why they use them. I sometimes wonder if it is in part an effort to make sure that their teens do not date outside their social class (and they pay $25,000/year for day school, to get this insulation). I think they may also believe that the GCs at the private prep schools have greater influence with the admissions committees at the elite colleges. Many of these privates do not surpass the local publics, when you sit down and count numbers of AP courses, AP scores, SAT scores, admissions outcomes etc.</p>

<p>But not everybody in these areas can afford private HS, certainly, nor can we afford to drop $100,000 - $250,000 cash on a bachelor’s degree, per kid. And that’s where a good CC is more important than ever.</p>

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<p>Followup to 93 – what I have heard from some local people who use the pricey, secular, coed day schools, is that they think the local publics do a great job with the highest end kids and the special needs kids, but they have a kid in the middle that they think will go unnoticed at the local public, and they think he or she will get more individual attention at a private school. I have no idea whether it really plays out this way – it would be too expensive to find out!</p>

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<p>Fieldsports, I sent one child to the pricey day school and one is in a more reasonably priced Catholic high school. Maryland comes out on top of those ridiculous public school rankings, but it is not because of the county where we live. The very pricey day school child was a top achiever and we sent her there for a couple of reasons, but mainly because our county schools do not have a gifted program. She got a much better education than our local schools offered and had extensive writing assignments that our public schools do not provide. Child number two, is more of a B student and the main reason he is where he is is because of redistricting fears. He enjoys smaller classes and I think he has gotten better college advice and recommendations. </p>

<p>IF our local CC had a solid pre-engineering program, it would be a good option for him.</p>

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<p>MD Mom, it is a wonderful option for those who can afford it. It is always amazing how much the considerations and options vary in different parts of the country.</p>

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<p>Use University of Maryland’s transfer credit lookup:
[Transfer</a> Credit Center | Transfer Database](<a href=“http://www.tce.umd.edu/tclookup.html/]Transfer”>http://www.tce.umd.edu/tclookup.html/)</p>

<p>and the course requirements for various engineering majors:
[A</a>. James Clark School of Engineering, University of Maryland](<a href=“http://www.eng.umd.edu/sitehome2.php]A”>http://www.eng.umd.edu/sitehome2.php)</p>

<p>to see how well your local community college and others in your area can fulfill the freshman and sophomore level course requirements.</p>

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<p>Definitely true. Our high school doesn’t offer AP, except I think we kept AP Euro History. We dropped them when it was only the rare student who got a 2 or better. With the SAT our scores are below state and national averages. With the PSSA (PA State test) we’re about to fail three years in a row and see what the state plans for that. Projections show no chance to pass this year.</p>

<p>We’re not much lower than other school districts around.</p>

<p>Perhaps that’s why our cc isn’t anything I’d consider worthy (stated after my kids have taken classes there, but as high schoolers).</p>

<p>Where I, myself, went to school (different state - similar demographics - still public) several of us took AP courses, but at the time we could just take 3 and only senior year. Many of our top students went on to top level schools (I graduated 2nd in my class and kids below me went to MIT and Stanford). I still don’t know of any top caliber student who started with junior college (as it was called back then). That was reserved for mid to lower level potential college students.</p>

<p>I suspect my thoughts are colored by my experiences - as are all of ours (most likely).</p>

<p>I’m continually frustrated with the level of local education to the point where I pulled my own kids out after 8th, 6th, and 4th respectively. It was amazing (and sad) at how far they were behind at the time - even though they were essentially straight A students.</p>

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<p>I work at our local CC, ucbalumnus, so even if the credits would transfer, I know the foundation would not be strong. Thank you, though.</p>

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<p>MD Mom and I are in the same state, but probably not the same county from her description of her public schools and community college, so yes is clear that the situation can vary. As I’ve written before, more graduates of Happykid’s “Newsweek Top 100” high school choose our CC than any other post-HS option. The numbers have increased over the past few years as parents have become more cost sensitive. Top strudents there transfer to top institutions all over the country.</p>

<p>However given that the mission of a CC is to serve the needs of the local population, one doesn’t have to drive very far to find a CC with very different program offerings. Personally, I’d like MD to follow a model more like the one in CA, and beef up the transfer-track coursework a bit at those CCs that aren’t doing quite as well for their transferring students. I’d also like clearer coordination between the CCs and the state Us for all majors so that transfers whose majors do not have articulation agreements do not have to fight for so many of their courses once they get to a state U.</p>