Is Barnard the same as Columbia?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Columbia University
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A lot of people mentioned Barnard students using the Columbia name deceptively to get jobs, so when I was on campus, I asked around and found out what Barnard women wrote on their resumes.</p>

<p>The overwhelming answer was a quizzical look and "Barnard College." Some also said "Barnard College - Columbia University." I did not find a single woman who either listed her education as "Columbia University - Barnard College" or, worse yet, "Columbia University."

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<p>How you heard of the Wilder/Bradley effect (i.e., people tell pollsters they're voting for the black guy because they don't want to seem racist and then go vote for the white guy, so black candidates poll much better than they turn out the vote)? Take it from there, genius...</p>

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<p>No reason to be rude, Columbia2002.</p>

<p>If you look back at what I wrote, I mentioned that I'm sure there are people who do write that way on their resume. However, I don't think it's that prevalent. </p>

<p>On another note, why does this matter? They're not actually harming anyone (except perhaps themselves because having completed a women's college is a big plus for some employers too). The Columbia student will still find work, there's no reason to worry about it. The employer probably couldn't care less either - if you're smart enough to get top grades in Columbia classes, they don't care what your degree says. </p>

<p>It seems like an ego issue to me and I believe most Columbia and Barnard students are intelligent enough not to succumb to such silly things.</p>

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<p>"However, I don't think it's that prevalent. "</p>

<p>Your judgment of it's prevalence was from asking people. C02 was pointing out why that judgment is almost certainly biased, because the information (people's responses) which you were basing the judgment from is probably flawed. What they say has no bearing on what they do.</p>

<p>"They're not actually harming anyone. The Columbia student will still find work, there's no reason to worry about it."</p>

<p>It's a clear case of misrepresentation to only state Columbia university instead of Barnard college. I can't tell you the exact effect of this misrepresentation for certain. But here are a few probable consequences: Barnard is easier to get into than Columbia, so Barnard classes would be easier to do well in, meaning a 3.5 gpa at Barnard is probably much easier to come by than a 3.5 at columbia. So to have a 3.5 at Barnard and say "Columbia university 3.5" would be lying and giving yourself an unfair advantage. Barnard and Columbia students can cross register, but they still take the majority of their classes at their own school. and GPA is still school specific. Columbia is also better known and people consider it to have more prestige, these are all advantages diluted by more students (Barnard students) identifying themselves by Columbia. Think of it this way, if all the SUNY students said they went to columbia and stated their gpas as Columbia gpas would it then still not make a difference? I really hope everything does not have to spelled out in black and white to understand shades of gray.</p>

<p>"except perhaps themselves because having completed a women's college is a big plus for some employers too"</p>

<p>Not for the jobs that are competitive to get. For the reasons cited above and more - there is large incentive to say you go to Columbia instead of Barnard. Companies might have a GPA cutoff for interviewing candidates from Columbia, that cut off could well be much higher for Barnard students, it's cheating the system to misrepresent yourself, and don't tell me no one gets affected when others cheat the system. Each person cheating incrementally hurts the system and makes it slightly worse for everyone else.</p>

<p>If a Barnard student is brilliant, they should have all the more reason to cite their own school, so as to make a better name for it, I say the same of columbia students in a scenario when going to an all girls college is an advantage.</p>

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<p>I think Con Col is being a bit harsh, but he's generally right.</p>

<p>What bothers people (myself included) is the misrepresentation. Either you did not get into, or chose not to apply to or attend Columbia. Why then do you say you go to Columbia?</p>

<p>Frankly speaking I don't think the misrepresentation has any serious impact. If you honestly think a Barnard student saying they go to Columbia is somehow besmirching or diluting the value of your Columbia degree, you're probably insecure. Trust your own merits to speak for themselves.</p>

<p>I think ConCol is running into thin speculative ice with the GPA speak. Comparing SUNY to Barnard is off the mark, as is the assumption about cross registration. Leaving aside the "easier classes" remarks, because I don't think they're necessarily true (most liberal arts classes aren't graded on a curve, so it doesn't matter who you're competing against), there are different academic standards at both schools. Specifically, the cut-off for Dean's List honors at barnard is much lower (3.4 vs. 3.6). Someone who doesn't know that the two schools are different wouldn't know this. </p>

<p>Again, I don't buy the cutoff stuff. Why are you conjuring up an unnecesarry double standard? In your hypothetical, the scheming Columbia student can take classes at Barnard, which you allege are easier, and easily clear the supposedly lower GPA cutoff, while the Barnard student who takes the "harder" classes at Columbia is punished because she has to meet a higher standard? Besides, most of the on-campus recruiting is school specific. Columbia's Career Office doesn't offer services to Barnard and vice versa.</p>

<p>Getting back to the main point, most of these arguments involve two strawmen - The Barnard Student Who Says She Goes to Columbia and The Person Who Is Being Hoodwinked By The Unscrupulous Barnard Student.</p>

<p>These two nefarious characters don't typically exist in the extreme forms that people get into a huff about.</p>

<p>But consider this: a Barnard grad goes into an interviewer. The interviewer goes "Barnard?" What does she say?
a) It's the women's college at Columbia University
b) It's one of the colleges of Columbia University
c) It's a women's college affiliated with Columbia University</p>

<p>Most probably give a variation of a or b. Though they're wrong, they probably reflect the reality on the ground pretty good. C is the technically correct answer, but let's be honest here- if you're an employer, and you're in a 30 minute interview, and the interviewee gives you answer c, in your mind you probably think it's the same thing as a or b and move on.</p>

<p>Summary: Barnard is not the same as Columbia. Most people outside of Morningside Heights probably can't tell the difference.</p>

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<p>"Comparing SUNY to Barnard is off the mark,"</p>

<p>I wasn't, I was using a more extreme comparison to show why misrepresentation hurts the system.</p>

<p>"In your hypothetical, the scheming Columbia student can take classes at Barnard"</p>

<p>I qualified this by saying Barnard and Columbia students take most classes at their own schools. </p>

<p>"If you honestly think a Barnard student saying they go to Columbia is somehow besmirching or diluting the value of your Columbia degree, you're probably insecure."</p>

<p>It isn't a case of insecurity, I'm proud that I go to Columbia I see the degree as valuable, but misrepresentation is unnecessary and more people claiming to go to "one of Columbia's undergraduate schools" does dilute the value in saying that. Shades of gray again. </p>

<p>"Trust your own merits to speak for themselves."</p>

<p>yes, this good advice for a Barnard student claiming to go to Columbia.</p>

<p>"The Barnard Student Who Says She Goes to Columbia and The Person Who Is Being Hoodwinked By The Unscrupulous Barnard Student. These two nefarious characters don't typically exist in the extreme forms that people get into a huff about."</p>

<p>I've met several Barnard girls who consider that they go to Columbia after being rejected by columbia college. It isn't uncommon, and it's more likely to happen on a resume than in conversation. When people work hard to get in and to do well at Columbia, I can see why they're ticked off by students from a separate school claiming to have the same qualifications.</p>

<p>"if you're an employer, and you're in a 30 minute interview, and the interviewee gives you answer c, in your mind you probably think it's the same thing as a or b and move on."</p>

<p>affiliated is different from being a part of, interviewers pay attention to such details, if the interviewer has not heard of Barnard it would probably be at a later stage of life, when your college education is a less important/relevant qualification. </p>

<p>Your college is more relevant for internships and jobs straight after graduation, here the employer tends to know the difference. The problem, and what people on this board are so adamant about, is often that the interviewer is unaware that the candidate is at Barnard, because it wasn't stated on resume, and so the question never even arises. The Barnard candidate could get the interview in the first place over a more deserving Columbia student.</p>

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<p>There are probably many schools that employers never heard of. Why do they need to be "explained" in the context of other schools? How is it helpful to mention Columbia when you are trying to "explain" what Barnard College is? If you really want to "explain" it, you would say it's an all girls LAC in Manhattan whose notable graduates are Joan Rivers or whomever....</p>

<p>When people say they never heard of Oberlin College (where my daughter graduated from), I never mention the Conservatory because she didn't go/apply to the conservatory which has completely different acceptance criteria from the College. It certainly doesn't help "explain" anything about the college.</p>

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<p>"I wasn't, I was using a more extreme comparison to show why misrepresentation hurts the system."</p>

<p>Apples and Oranges. SUNY has nothing to do with Columbia. Barnard is attached at the hip to Columbia. The whole nearly-full open cross-registration thing is also a big difference.</p>

<p>"It isn't a case of insecurity, I'm proud that I go to Columbia I see the degree as valuable, but misrepresentation is unnecessary and more people claiming to go to "one of Columbia's undergraduate schools" does dilute the value in saying that. Shades of gray again."</p>

<p>Does it? Why? I dispute your conclusion.</p>

<p>"When people work hard to get in and to do well at Columbia"</p>

<p>Two VERY different things. People are obsessed with getting in, and give it way too much weight. </p>

<p>"The Barnard candidate could get the interview in the first place over a more deserving Columbia student."</p>

<p>So you've stated that the only time this whole thing is an issue is right out of college or for internships, when the employer already knows the difference. But then you fall back on conjuring the exact same scary specter that I said people create- do you have proof that this actually happens? How often do you think this actually happens? And just what makes the Columbia student more "deserving"?</p>

<p>You make two huge assumptions in this scenario - that school brand counts for an overwhelming amount, and second, and more importantly, that Columbia counts for significantly more than Barnard (among a group of employers whom you say understand the relationship between the schools). On what basis are you making this assumption?</p>

<p>acinva- because the relationship to Columbia is a defining characteristic of Barnard. Access to Columbia's resources, faculty, course catalog, labs etc. Also, your example is the reverse. There's no reason for a Columbia grad to explain what Barnard is. That's why there's an entire page on Barnard's website that explains the relationship (quite well actually), and Barnard barely gets mentioned on Columbia's website.</p>

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<p>acinva- because the relationship to Columbia is a defining characteristic of Barnard. Access to Columbia's resources, faculty, course catalog, labs etc. Also, your example is the reverse. There's no reason for a Columbia grad to explain what Barnard is. That's why there's an entire page on Barnard's website that explains the relationship (quite well actually), and Barnard barely gets mentioned on Columbia's website.</p>

<p>What did I say that made you think that a Columbia grad has to explain what Barnard is?</p>

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<p>...because the relationship to Columbia is a defining characteristic of Barnard.</p>

<p>Oh, come on. How does that clarify/explain Barnard when nobody has ever heard of it? When the Columbia name enters the discussion, THAT'S what people have heard of and it says NOTHING about Barnard the College.</p>

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<p>"SUNY has nothing to do with Columbia. Barnard is attached at the hip to Columbia. The whole nearly-full open cross-registration thing is also a big difference."</p>

<p>I was using SUNY to help people understand the effects of misrepresentation ONLY, please understand the context and explanatory value of the example instead of criticizing irrelevant inconsistencies. I'm not saying that Barnard claiming to be columbia is comparable to SUNY students claiming to be Columbia. But Barnard is a separate and independent school, and for a Barnard student to say that she goes to Columbia instead of an affiliate would be simply incorrect.</p>

<p>"Does it? Why?"</p>

<p>why not offer the Columbia degree to anyone right? heck if you apply, it shouldn't matter if you get in, if you get in it shouldn't matter if you pass, just give out columbia degrees and allow people to say they went to columbia because it won't hurt the others. There is a standard and brand name associated with any college, people from another college using that brand name incorrectly dilutes it's value and standard. I'd say precisely the same if a Harvard or Princeton student were to say he/she went to Columbia, it's misrepresentation.</p>

<p>"Two VERY different things. People are obsessed with getting in, and give it way too much weight."</p>

<p>Placing an overly high value on admission does not discount getting into college as a qualification. More importantly though that's not what I was talking about. One would hope doing well career wise is correlated with qualifications, getting interviews at any rate is. One would hope qualifications are correlated with hard-work (both getting in and doing well at columbia), if someone lies about qualifications the meritocracy is undermined.</p>

<p>"when the employer already knows the difference. But then you fall back on conjuring the exact same scary specter that I said people create"</p>

<p>employers would know the difference if they were informed that the student goes to Barnard. If a resume hides this, the interviewer wouldn't know and would have incorrectly judged the candidate. In a job where being at an all girls college would be an advantage, a columbia college student claiming to go to Barnard is equally as unjust.</p>

<p>"do you have proof that this actually happens? How often do you think this actually happens?"</p>

<p>no I don't have proof that it actually happens, there is no way to know, i have no access to resumes. But i've heard of it happen, I can see incentive why it would, and I've had barnard girls rejected from columbia tell me that they study at columbia. To me, that is enough evidence that it does happen. I have friends and family working on wall street who say that they interview candidate from Columbia but not Barnard, because Barnard is not a target school, or they say that they interview Barnard candidates far less frequently for whatever reason.</p>

<p>"that school brand counts for an overwhelming amount" </p>

<p>I never said school brand counts for an overwhelming amount, but if it counts for anything my argument stands. </p>

<p>"and second, and more importantly, that Columbia counts for significantly more than Barnard"</p>

<p>refer to it being unjust for a columbia college student misrepresenting themselves as Barnard.</p>

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<p>Oh god, this board was dying.....</p>

<p>Come on guys, let's all be friends :)</p>

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<p>"Specifically, the cut-off for Dean's List honors at barnard is much lower (3.4 vs. 3.6). Someone who doesn't know that the two schools are different wouldn't know this."</p>

<p>Not to not be nice or anything, but for fairness's sake must supplement ConfucianNemisis's data to show how a Barnard misrepresentation (and it is that for someone going to an affiliated college to claim to be from Columbia) might be hurtful/unfair to Columbia College students: until last year, the cut-off for Latin Honors at Barnard is 3.4. Nearly 70% of Barnard students received cum laude or higher (grade inflation much?), while the cut-off at CC/SEAS has always been around a 3.7 (no more than 25% of the class). </p>

<p>And you know, that might be a big deal, b/c some can get away with simply writing down Magna Cum Laude rather than a GPA in resumes (NYTimes wedding announcements...)</p>

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<p>^wow, that makes a huge difference, that's would be really unfair lies.</p>

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<p>OhmyGOD, people, it's not that difficult. Forget all the technicalities - technically, a lot of things COULD be true. You either apply to Columbia, or you apply to Barnard. PERIOD. Not saying anything bout which one's better, but if you need more than one sentence to describe it, you're making it too complicated.</p>

<p>You either apply to Barnard or you apply to Columbia. PERIOD. End of story. Finis.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
And you know, that might be a big deal, b/c some can get away with simply writing down Magna Cum Laude rather than a GPA in resumes (NYTimes wedding announcements...)

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<p>Pity anyone who is snooty and pretentious enough to avail themselves to the NYT wedding announcements. They make me want to vomit.</p>

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<p>wait, I wasn't paying attention to this thread because it makes my eyes bleed. What does "writing down magna cum laude rather than a GPA in resumes" have to do with "NYTimes wedding announcements"?</p>

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<p>nothing denzera, stupid joke. I just have been noticing that in wedding announcements people always mention not only where they went to college but whether they got honors, perhaps a sign that whether or not one received graduation honors is a big deal.</p>

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<p>snivellus,</p>

<p>You must care, because if you didn't you wouldn't find the need to explain the whole Barnard and Columbia affiliation. You'd just say Barnard a school in NY and that's it.</p>