I don’t know what to tell you. You have to read the entire post to which I was replying. Hope this helps.
“Without standardized test scores there is almost nothing objective in the process”
That is exactly what elite colleges want.
The winners are the wealthy tagged kids with hooks and recruited sub-groups.
The losers are lower and middle class strivers without hooks and that won’t enhance diversity.
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I think it’s you but maybe not but every time I say 41% of Wesleyan kids got in TO someone says but they have to report scores upon acceptance.
Why ? Placement ?’ Tracking ? I’m sure there’s a reason why but the fact is nearly half appplied and were admitted without scores.
So not sure how that keeps someone honest ?
If you were to say someone submitted a 20 or 25 so that AO blew it then the score was used (to judge them).
So I’ve yet to hear the logic how this is helpful. Perhaps it is but I’ve not seen explanation as to why. I just get told it’s not right that Wesleyan is 59% TO because 100% give scores upon acceptance.
Maybe but the school had no clue about at least 41% of admit and who knows what % of applicants as they evaluated them.
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Sorry, TSBNA but you’re addressing the wrong strawman. You should move on.
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I think in the final analysis, the obsession with undergraduate placement is short sighted. I have a kid in a T10 engineering program. If a kid doesn’t have the work ethic to maintain high grades and the ability to score very highly on any standardized test, they are not likely to make it through a rigorous program at any college (lots of programs are going to find this out in the next couple of years as graduation rates decline). And if they do have these characteristics, then it’s not going to matter much where they went to undergraduate college, other than at cocktail parties.
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A good thread with a lot of good input, concerns and observations (I think we need popcorn!).
There is a lot to unpack here. Not sure what is the actual cause vs result/rational reaction that leads to the current state, especially with T50 (and even more so with T20).
As long as the AOs are measured the way they have been, I do not think much will change. The perception of the brand value of a college should not be linked to admission stats (easier to measure) but much more to the ultimate graduates, their profiles, job prospects/offers and overall experience. And, that is harder to quantify and/or measure, unfortunately.
It is an unbalanced system but unfortunately, it is very hard to eliminate the issues that impact the colleges and applicants now that we are in this race.
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This.
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I tell friends frequently, if you have a good state polytechnic school, you would be out of your mind not to take advantage of it, look at the long term stats of these places. Any rational investor would see the logic in this without even thinking about it. But then, the ‘where does your kid go to college?’ cocktail party thoughts and emotions creep in!
Think: Cal Poly, Rensselaer, WPI, NC State, etc…
Or pharmacy. This if you have aptitude for these fields. Most don’t although if you’re on the CC a lot you’d think 90% are majoring in CS.
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The problem, is that these schools don’t offer optionality. You need to be surer. Which you may very well be of course. Harder to pivot.
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I don’t think of the essay as a writing contest. It’s supposed to be about showing who you are. Are you an interesting person who will contribute positively to the social vibe on campus? Whether you’re a math major or a theater major, you’re still a person who will live and socialize on campus.
I believe a lot of ECs are pay to play. I hope AOs know what is genuine.
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Exactly. Now kids will be crating their resumes of ECs starting in 5th grade instead of being kids, pursing interests, having fun. I’ll take testing over that any day.
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I love your daughter’s testing outlook. My daughter is from a small school (graduating class of 61). She completed high school in 3 years instead of 4 and also obtained her AA degree while doing so. She has a 3.959 UW GPA and involved in everything. Her ACT score was a mere 22. Why? Because she works for everything, she is not naturally smart. Her strength is in details and so while taking the ACT she always ran out of time. She will be attending Penn State and was accepted into the LEP major of Criminology (hence being a detail person) and hopes to become a behavioral analysis. Her ACT score would have kept her out of a program I have no doubt she will exceed in. Not because she isn’t smart enough but because she doesn’t test fast enough
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IMO the essay should be only a very minor factor in admissions, and mainly if it reveals serious character flaws.
At this point in their lives, most of these kids have written past essays analyzing literature and history.
They are 17 years old and just starting to emerge from childhood where it is natural and normal to be self-centered.
Crafting an essay about yourself that highlights your strengths (but not bragging), influences and lessons (without being cliché), experiences (without seeming privileged), and perspectives (without offending or seeming controversial) is no small order.
Many of these kids have the same important formative experiences in sports, hobbies, etc. But don’t write on the topic that AO’s are sick of reading about!
Instead the quirky essay about how your collection of coke bottles from different decades allowed you to connect with your abuela’s friend group lets the AO’s remember you as the “coke bottle kid.” Apparently you always want a memorable moniker if you want an AO to go to bat for you.
Brainstorming and creating an appealing and interesting essay that blends a students characteristics and answers not only questions of “who” and “what,” but also “why” and “how” is something that most students struggle with. It is easy for adults like us to forget how challenging writing an appealing personal statement is when you have never really done so before, and when you lack perspective and wisdom from experience.
Unfortunately the natural preference of AOs for interesting, engaging, multifaceted content gives another advantage to those who can hire professionals to work with students to brainstorm and polish a fabulous essay.
I was mildly curious how my own son would react so I asked him if he wanted to use such a service. He gave that a “hell no.” His essays came out fine with just family advising him. Would they have been more polished had we paid professionals for help? Maybe, but being at a school where an entry filter is paying a professional to write one’s essay is not something my son would want.
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I agree to a certain extent, as graduates’ outcomes are important. By outcomes, I’m not limiting it to grad school and career success, but also to personal growth, exposure to new ideas, etc. But how many times have people said that graduates from the Top X universities would be successful no matter where they were, and/or if a school is taking the nation’s top test-takers, how much credit should they really get for graduating students with the highest MCAT/LSAT/GRE scores?
Thus, I’d love for universities to be evaluated on the growth that that students make, in addition to more traditional outcomes. I read about the Collegiate Learning Assessment (CLA) in The College Solution by Lynn O’Shaughnessy) which many universities give to students their freshman year and then again in their senior year to see how students have grown academically with respect to thinking, problem solving, and writing skills. Unfortunately, however, most of that data is kept private and is not available to the public. But if one wants to use a test to assess a student, a pre- and post-test is a really great option to see what impact the school has had on the student.
Another tool is the National Survey of Student Engagement (NSSE) which is a student survey that measures how students are engaged in, “academic rigor, interactions with professors, and active and collaborative learning.” Finding out if universities are doing the right things to get results and to have the collegiate experience desired would be important.
So how does that affect admissions to college? It doesn’t. But if assessments like the above were used to rank colleges, I’d be very curious to see what they would look like, and whether/how it would impact both “brand” name colleges and non-elite institutions.
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We also yielded to our son when it came to a values-based decision in this process…’does doing this vibe with your identity?’ And it was a ‘hell no’ as well when it came to certain ways to game the system. Regardless of the outcome, I know that going through this process… feeling he proceeded through it making choices that reflected his growing sense of self…was a big growth moment for him.
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You don’t need consultants. Student written essays are more authentic, and people can tell. You don’t even need an AO to tell.
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I read about a new college ranking system that uses AI to measure the ‘influence’ that a school has based on graduates ‘mentions’ in huge databases. I don’t know if it’s a good thing or valid thing, but it’s interesting in light of your comment.
“…a new college rankings method that uses artificial intelligence technology to search massive databases and measure the impact of work by individuals who’ve been affiliated with colleges and universities throughout the world.”
- Swarthmore College
- Amherst College
- Sarah Lawrence College.
- Reed College
- Barnard College
- Wesleyan University
- Vassar College
- Hampshire College
- Wellesley College
- Williams College
- Cooper Union
- Pomona College
- Oberlin College
- Bryn Mawr College
- Bard College
- Haverford College
- Smith College
- Claremont McKenna College
- Morehouse College
- Kenyon College
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I was looking at Johns Hopkins’ website the other day, and they had posted some essays from accepted students. Maybe my sniffer was off, but they didn’t all seem to be written by 17-year olds.
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