So wondering about what I hear about Cornell (versus Brown) – I hear that Cornell is stressful and ultra competitive, particularly for engineering. Is this true? Do students have fun at Cornell? And I heard that a student could get a 90% on an exam and get a C if that was the average grade (due to a curve based on a normal distribution). Is that true?
My younger daughter’s sorority roommate was an engineering major. She was able to attend most parties and got good enough grades to work at one of high tech companies in CA upon graduation.
Engineering is one of more rigorous schools at Cornell, but a lot of their students are very involved with school ECs and they party just as much as other students.
Cornell courses are graded on a curve, but it is curved to B or B+ and it tends to help students. My older daughter have gotten 70s on a math test and still got B+/A-. I have never heard of my kids say 90 is a C because of a curve.
Everyone’s experience is different, but both of kids (graduates of Cornell) had a very active social life. They worked very hard, and also partied hard.
Depends on what you study, what your work habits are like, what your goals are, and how smart you are.
All students there at not identical, in these aspects. So there is not one answer.
But the notion that Brown engineering students are all sunning themselves all day while they are drinking cocktails seems highly unlikely to me. You get a bunch of people who are just as smart. They use basically the same textbooks. (I checked once in the Brown bookstore when D1 was screening colleges). And they are just as interested in competitive subsequent destinations/ grad schools. I think I read someplace that 1/3 of Brown applied science majors go to med school- a goal that places great demands on undergraduate accomplishment.
At Cornell, though they still work hard, in general liberal arts majors do not have it quite as hard as engineering majors tend to (feel they) have it. I think Brown has proportionally more liberal arts majors than Cornell has. My guess is that this is where any perceived differences come from. Not that it is necessarily easier in comparable majors. Why would it be?
That does make sense. I just keep reading that Cornell engineering is more stressful than Brown engineering. Don’t think it is the dealmaker/deal breaker though!
Thinking about it more, there could be some differences if the programs are different.
When I attended, Cornell’s engineering majors were ABET-accredited programs. ABET heavily influences the program of studies and sequence of required courses and # credits in particular areas.
Most engineers took 5 courses a semester.(Note: I don’t know if this is still the case). The engineering courses were mostly three credits each.
Whereas the liberal arts majors generally took 4 courses a semester, at 4 credits each. Which perhaps surprisingly was not easier for me, personally. But then I was a physics major (and a dumb one at that). The “real” liberal arts majors did not seem quite as stressed, overall.
If another school is not offering ABET-accredited majors, then who knows what their students are taking, or how much. I recall reading that Dartmouth engineers who want an ABET accredited program have to stay for a fifth year.
All I recall hearing about Brown is they “mix engineering with entrepreneurship, to produce tech savvy managers” (??). Or something like that. Plus all those med school applicants. Not necessarily working/practicing engineers. And Brown University in general markets itself as not requiring students to take any particular courses in any particular areas(or something to that effect). (Whereas ABET does…) In that case, who knows what their “engineering” majors take, or how much? Interested parties should specifically check requirements, etc. and see if the program will meet their needs.
It could be “easier”, if an “engineering” major is not really planning to be a working engineer, does not take a full ABET-oriented engineering curriculum and fills up with tons of easier liberal arts courses instead. But then it is not really the same education either. It may suit a particular student, based on his/her goals. Then again it might not.
If instead of following ABET they are filling up with pre-med courses it is probably harder, not easier.
But to answer part of your original question, Most Cornell engineering students do also have fun. It’s sort of a “work hard, play hard” kind of place.
I wish I understood better the potential implications of the ABET thing. I’d favor a school that has the most flexibility in terms of post-graduation possibilities - a good job after four years as well as good potential for grad school/medical school. My best guess is THAT points to Cornell instead of Brown. My kid is not interested in the entrepreneurial aspect. IS thinking about grad school and possibly med school.
An ABET accredited program, or equivalent training, is important to, and expected by, certain classes of traditional engineering employers, in the traditional major disciplines( mechanical, electrical…) In certain “newer” areas: eg computer, biomedical- such accreditation may not even exist. Maybe the engineering sub-forum can give more info/direction.
Certainly many of my classmates from engineering went to grad school. A roommate who was an engineering major went to med school. But at least at that time, excelling at the premed courses along with one’s engineering courses was a pretty challenging path. My guess is things are somewhat different these days, since they have whole “biomedical engineering” or "bioengineering"majors that didn’t exist when I went to school.
All freshman engineering students at Cornell take essentially the same curriculum regardless of whether they intend to pursue an ABET-certified program or not (2 semesters of math, 2 semesters of science [from phsyics, chem, bio], intro to engineering, computer science, 2 semesters of first year writing seminar, as well as 2 semesters of mandatory PE). This works out to about 16 hours each semester, and many students also take an additional 1 credit pass/fail elective workshop for their respective math, science and comp science courses, bringing them closer to 18 hours each semester. Sophomore year is fairly structured as well. Some students skip ahead in coursework because of AP credits, but overall the same curriculum is required.
As far as ABET certification, as stated above, it can be important to some disciplines - for example, someone who intends to graduate and immediately work as a civil engineer. That said, many top engineering schools do not even have ABET certification for many of their degree programs. As stated, many disciplines do not require ABET, and many engineering students today have no plan to become practicing engineers - instead pursuing business, medicine, business consulting, grad school, etc.
As far as the original question regarding stress/fun, I think the answer is dependent on the student. I am sure some students find even this challenging curriculum to be very manageable, while others are stressed more than they would like. As suggested, most of the classes are graded on a curve, making the raw score fairly meaningless - with a grade being assigned only once compared to the scores of their peers (using a mean/standard deviation approach). Your example of a 90 being a C is very unlikely, as the examinations are quite challenging - resulting in the opposite effect, where an 80 might be an A. Certainly many/most Cornell students arrive as straight A high school students, and most are not likely to continue that streak…so no doubt that also produces stress.
I know nothing about Brown or its engineering program.
I’m a second year Engineering student in CS. It’s rough, but I have tons of time to hang with friends. I don’t party but I do have Friday nights free (given I spend my week doing a reasonable amount of work).
As for classes, I find most of my classes have a reasonable workload (except this one class, CS 3410, which is literally a nightmare. 70% of my workload is 3410 alone).