<p>I'm a history major, in my sophomore year of college. I've been thinking about becoming a corporate lawyer ever since I was a senior in high school. It sounds like an interesting career. But, is it worth it? I have a few questions:</p>
<ol>
<li>Would it be great for someone like me who loves to read, and who writes very well (The lowest grade I've gotten on a paper in my English Comp. class was a 99%, and the lowest grade I've gotten on any written paper in college so far was an 89%). Would I succeed in it? And, would someone like me do really well on the LSAT?</li>
<li>Is there such a thing as International Corporate Law? What does it encircle, and do you get to travel a lot?</li>
<li>Would it be a good career for someone like me who knows a lot about history, foreign affairs, nations, governments, etc.</li>
<li>How is the pay, compared to other professions?</li>
<li>Is it an intellectually fun and exciting experience?</li>
<li>What is a typical day in the life of a corporate lawyer like?</li>
</ol>
<p>My advice is NOT even to think about going to law school.</p>
<p>There is a vast over-supply of lawyers.</p>
<p>Many people on CC have posted similar messages.</p>
<p>By the way, this advice is not only based on my own experience, which you might dismiss, but also based on the experiences of a myriad of friends and co-workers. </p>
<p>I can write for pages on this subject.</p>
<p>If you want to know more, contact me directly and I will give you more specifics.</p>
<p>I am a corporate lawyer who specializes primarily in mergers and acquisitions, private equity and securities law. Of course, in order to do these things well you must also have a level of expertise in tax, real estate, employment, labor, intellectual property, and a whole host of other areas of law. </p>
<p>I’m a history major, in my sophomore year of college. I’ve been thinking about becoming a corporate lawyer ever since I was a senior in high school. It sounds like an interesting career. But, is it worth it? I have a few questions:</p>
<p>To answer your questions, in order:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>It is impossible to say whether you would succeed in corporate law purely as a matter of your grades on a few college papers. Practicing corporate law does indeed require excellent writing ability, but the type of writing you do is worlds apart from the kind of writing that would earn you a 98% in an english comp class. In addition, you need to be confident, a good speaker and negotiator, someone who can think on their feet, a good researcher, someone who can see the forest through the trees and you should have some math and finance ability (the more, the better).</p></li>
<li><p>All corporate law is, by its nature, international. Few companies source their products/raw materials/components domestically or sell products/services exclusively in the U.S. Whether or not you get to travel a lot is a function both of the areas of corporate law in which you specialize, as well as the particular needs of your clients. As someone who has travelled a whole lot for work, I can tell you that, in my opinion, traveling for work is overrated and, frankly, something I avoid when possible. I have travelled across the globe for work, and I have to tell you that the inside of a conference room in Tokyo or South Africa looks an awful lot like the inside of a conference room in Detroit.</p></li>
<li><p>History, foreign affairs, nations, governments, etc. . . . that’s all well and good. It is important for a good corporate lawyer to understand the world around him or her and to read newspapers, etc. avidly. I don’t know that your specific knowledge would help you in any particular way. </p></li>
<li><p>The pay varied tremendously depending upon where (geographically) and the type of setting in which you practice law. Many seasoned corporate lawyers practicing at the highest levels of the profession make a significant amount of money every year, and others make a lot less. I can tell you that it can be frustrating that your corporate, private equity and other clients often make significantly more money than you will, even though you are working side-by-side for many, many long hours. </p></li>
<li><p>Intellectually fun? I wouldn’t necessarily call it fun. One of the things that I love about corporate law is that there is always something new to learn and a lot of thinking required to determine the best course of action for clients who are wading through some very gray areas. </p></li>
<li><p>What is a typical day in the life of a corporate lawyer like? Without writing you a book, since every day is completely different from the one before and often quite different from the day I expect when I walk in in the morning, I can tell you that the days are long and often unpredictable. You never know for sure that you won’t be working all night. Remember – it’s a client service industry and, though part of your job as a senior attorney is to manage clients’ expectations, sometimes you must serve your clients no matter how unreasonable their demands. Often corporate transactions are negotiated, priced, finalized, etc. at night and over the weekends so that market-sensitive information is less likely to be leaked.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Thanks so much for the thorough reply, sallyawp!</p>
<p>I also have some other questions.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Do you tend to work with smart people in corporate law, as opposed to other careers?</p></li>
<li><p>Exactly how much does the average corporate lawyer travel? Do you only get to see “the hotel and the conference room”, as some people say?</p></li>
<li><p>What options are available after corporate law? Could you easily go into I-Banking, teaching, consulting, business, etc?</p></li>
<li><p>Does it really carry as much “prestige” as people hype it up to be, and what is the average salary of a corporate lawyer?</p></li>
<li><p>What are the average hours of work for corporate law? Do you get holidays off?</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I can’t speak for other careers, as all of the other jobs that I had before I became attorney were just that – jobs. Law is the only career path I’ve had. That said, I get to work with some absolutely brilliant people. Some of those people have outstanding social skills to boot, and some less so. I get to work with some incredible dullards, too (fortunately, they are usually representing someone on the other side of a transaction, but it does make things go oh-so-much-more slowly since they often just don’t get it).</p>
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<p>I already answered the part of your question about hotels and conference rooms. Just as you don’t have a lot of free time while you are working out of your home office, you won’t have a lot of free time when you’re traveling on business. Oh, and I’ve found that catered in lunch sandwiches in U.S. conference rooms are actually much better than catered in lunch sandwiches in Paris, London or Madrid. </p>
<p>There is no “average” amount of travel for a corporate lawyer. Sometimes client matters require you to travel, sometimes they do not. Sometimes clients want you to travel constantly to be at every meeting in person, and other times they want you to reduce travel (and their costs) as much as possible. Sometimes you are on deals with a heavy domestic component and sometimes the deal is primarily cross-border. You can never know for sure how much travel will happen in a month, a year or a career.</p>
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<p>Could you go into these other areas? Of course you can. Will it be easy? That depends. It depends on you, your particular skills (personal and professional), who you happen to meet and, more importantly, who you happen to impress, when in your career you look to make a career change, external factors like the economy and geography, etc. It is impossible to say for sure how things will play out for any particular attorney. </p>
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<p>Prestige, really? All I ever hear are bad lawyer jokes threatening to toss us all into the ocean in chains and leave us there. </p>
<p>For average salaries, I would take a much closer look at the information posted on this board. Some lawyers start out making $160,000/year and make $millions later. Others make significantly less for starting salaries ($50,000 - $60,000/year) and/or make significantly less throughout their careers. Still others can not find jobs after law school or lose their jobs later and never find work as lawyers again. </p>
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<p>The average hours have also been much discussed on this board. Speaking for corporate law in Biglaw NYC firms, you would work a lot – a whole lot. As a young attorney, I worked between 65 and 110 hours per week. Often, I spent weeks on end hovering around the upper end of those hours worked estimates. I missed family events, had to skip out on friend’s weddings (once, even where I was a bridesmaid – no joke!), missed dates, lost friends (who simply stopped calling me because I would either always have to break plans or just couldn’t make it in the first place), lost boyfriends, and spent countless hours in the office in a suit and hose and heels (which gets quite uncomfortable after 12 or so hours). There is no certainty to your life as a young attorney.</p>
<p>Now, as a more senior attorney, I have a little bit more control of my hours simply because (a) I know how things work and can see what’s coming at me and (b) I am not working for anyone else anymore. That’s not to say that I don’t work long hours. Even right now, on a Saturday night at 10 p.m., I am writing this as I take a break from my work. I’ve been working since 10 a.m. this morning and will probably work until about 2 a.m. tonight. Tomorrow, I will put in at least another 10 hours of work. </p>
<p>So, do you get holidays off? Kiddo, this may not be the career choice for you. Sure, in theory you get holidays off. In practice, though, if a client needs something done the day after the holiday or even on the holiday, you will be working. It happens often. Look, you will keep your blackberry with you at all times, and you will check it last thing before you go to sleep at night and first thing when you wake up (assuming that you went home from work at all). You will carry your blackberry with you on vacation and whenever you leave the office. Yes, vacations and holidays will be interrupted with work calls and you will learn where the business center is at every hotel you ever visit. Your laptop will also become like an appendage. There may also be times when you have to cancel a vacation on short notice (oh, yeah, that goes over well with your family or other traveling companions) due to client needs. Oh, so to answer your question, you may get a holiday off and you may not. </p>
<p>That’s also why you will find that busy attorneys will often take vacations in places they cannot be easily reached. Believe me, though, they can always find you.</p>
<p>Haven’t posted for a long time since I’ve been doing a lot of international travel plus considering relocation. I’m an in-house lawyer, and am the client who occasionally hires the big-law or medium sized law firm. Everything that SallyAwp said is absolutely correct. We go from airport to hotel to conference room and back again. If you’re staying over for the weekend, it’s because you’re working through the weekend.</p>
<p>No, there’s no “prestige” within the company for the legal group. We’re a support function. The only people who kiss up to us our the outside lawyers looking for work LOL.</p>
<p>By the way, we recently laid off some of our lawyers. There’s no security in-house either. We’re a Fortune 500. We don’t do much hiring though. I can only think of one instance in which I hired someone right out of law school, and the starting salary was less than $75,000 (we’re not in the NYC, Chicago, LA market though). I’d say our average salary for very experienced lawyers is in the mid-100s, which is on the lower side. No shortage of applicants though. You can find salary surveys for in-house lawyers online. </p>
<p>I don’t see corporate law as an entry into too many other fields. You become a specialist in the legal issues of the industry that you’re working in. If you work in the health care industry for example, it’s unlikely that a bank would choose you for an interview. If you’re working in the power industry, you’re unlikely to be asked to teach about family law.</p>
<p>Due to the glut of lawyers, if someone wanted to hire a lawyer in another field there are numerous candidates to choose from.</p>
<p>Ahh, so true, Sally. I cannot recall a single vacation where there weren’t calls to and from my H’s office. Even back in the days when our children were very young and we were staying at an inn that didn’t have phones in the room. I can vividly picture my H out in the parking lot at a pay phone trying to balance folders of papers, etc. I don’t think it’s easy for students to imagine what the time commitment is like for lawyers who do this kind of work. We certainly didn’t have a good idea of what it would be like. So many New Year’s Eves where I ended up at parties alone because H was working on a year end deal. We only had to cancel a vacation on short notice once in his career, and I consider that to be lucky. There were several that we had to rearrange in advance because of deals cropping up but only once did we have to cancel within a few days of departure. Interestingly, that happened after he went in-house. The upper echelon of in-house lawyers work every bit as hard, and as long hours, as they do at large firms. </p>
<p>Having said all that, I’m not complaining. With those long hours and great responsibility, come interesting work, great financial rewards, and career satisfaction for many. There are many things we’ve been able to do that we wouldn’t have been able to had he chosen another path, not the least of which is to allow all of our children to finish their educations and start off on their careers unencumbered by student loans. Being in a position to contribute to our community and support our charitable foundations is another positive. There are definite negatives to such a career but I think that sometimes the positives can be overlooked.</p>
<p>Alwaysamom, would you say your happy with the career choice your husband took? How was life the first few years he was a lawyer? If the questions are too personal, you don’t have to answer them.</p>
<p>I really want to take on the same career as your husband, but I don’t know if i could do it if my girlfriend wasn’t happy.
Thank you.</p>
<p>alex, when you say “corporate law” are you asking about life as an “in house” attorney or lawyers who practice “corporate law” in a law firm setting? If you are asking about being an in house attorney for a corporation, most of those attorneys have spent several years in a law firm setting before going in house. Landing a great in house job is very competitive and many companies only consider the cream of the crop. Since you may have to put in several years with a firm, the lifestyle you should be concerned about at the beginning of your career is that of an associate in a firm. </p>
<p>I am a headhunter for lawyers and am working to fill several in house positions now - in both New York and the DC area. It is a buyers’ market for the companies and they are being incredibly picky about hiring. They expect to see resumes from attorneys from top tier firms and top tier law schools with the perfect experience. The goal of the attorneys is often fewer hours, but to get that, they will have to take a significant pay cut. If you want to move in house, make sure you can take off the golden handcuffs of the law firm. Plan ahead financially.</p>
<p>Anecdotally, I worked in house at a Fortune 500 company for a few years, and (a) I had already worked 6 years at a Biglaw firm before I went in house (and, at the time, I was the most junior person in the company’s law department) and (b) I took a significant pay cut when I went in house. Those are important factors to remember for anyone thinking that they would like to practice law in house – you will typically need at least several years of law firm experience before moving in house and there is usually a significant associated pay cut.</p>
<p>Alex, it’s a difficult question to answer. He has had a wonderful career with interesting work and the financial rewards have been more than we could have ever imagined in our wildest dreams. That has provided us with the ability to do things for our families, our charitable causes, and our community, which is very satisfying. The one part of it that I wish had been different is how hard he has had to work but my wish is really about him and not me. I wish that he hadn’t had to work those long, long hours for the past 30+ years but that’s the nature of the job as well as his nature. I supported him in every way I could, and I think that it’s important to have a supportive significant other, especially if you have a family. In our experience, and this is clearly anecdotal, the combination of a good and happy home life and a successful and rewarding legal career at a large firm, has had a common ingredient and that is a stay at home significant other. My career allowed for some flexibility in that I can do what I do at home and I have done so throughout our married life. When my children were young, I was able to adjust accordingly because I wanted to be the main caregiver. It was important to us that we were not both working long hours and our children being raised by someone else. I am fully aware that not everyone feels that way but it was how we wanted our family life to be structured and it worked for us. </p>
<p>Cartera is right about landing a good in-house position. My H left his large firm after 20 years to go to a client as GC. Most of the lawyers who are in the senior positions there and work for him did, indeed, work at large firms first. These positions are very competitive and lots of experience is a definite requirement, at least at his employer, as I’m sure is the case at most large corporations and financial institutions. One comment about the difference in remuneration. Although it would appear that most will take a cut in pay if they’re leaving a large firm, it does not always end up working out that way. Taking into account bonus, stock options, other perqs, as well as an excellent pension can more than make up for any initial cut in pay, over the long term. There are lots of variables here, clearly, but if you’re leaving a large firm with experience and going to a senior in-house position, it will likely make good financial sense in the long run.</p>
<p>alwaysamom, I agree that long term, or even mid term, the remuneration can very well equal or surpass law firm pay. However, some associates quickly start spending every penny they make and they aren’t even able to take a small pay cut short term. I am working to fill two positions with a well known financial institution in Manhattan and the base salary is about $180k with a target bonus of 55%. I have talked to numerous associates who would love to be able to consider the job but are not able to take that cut. The company doesn’t have to pay more because it will find top people for the job. I am constantly advising young associates to save and be frugal so they don’t close off opportunities. When I filled in house positions during the tech boom, it was common for associates to get pay increases to go in house - particularly when lucrative stock options were factored in. Stock options are, of course, not what they used to be and the new crop of associates are much more tuned into base salary rather than bonus and options. They are much more risk averse.</p>
<p>You’re absolutely right, Cartera, about many young associates spending wildly when they should be thinking more long term. It truly does close off opportunities for them which is a shame, particularly for those in the U.S. who have such a slim chance of ever making it to partner. The situation is better in Canada, both at the large firms and in-house. Stock options here are still a huge perq and preferred shares and other benefits can very quickly outweigh what is considered excellent compensation at the large firms. I’m not sure what the current situation is at the large U.S. firms but in Canada, most do not have any type of pension plan so it’s imperative for the lawyers at those firms to look after that themselves. Going to an in-house position can result in an amazing savings in that regard because the pension, which can be negotiated along with everything else :), can be pretty great.</p>
<p>I am curious how competitive it would be for a BigLaw associate to get a good in-house gig after a couple of years of experience. If it is that competitive to get a good in-house gig despite with BigLaw credentials on your resume, I am guessing there would be a lot of ex-biglaw associates who end up with limited set of exit options after their stint at BigLaw. What do the majority of people who don’t get good in-house jobs after BigLaw end up doing? What other options do they have?</p>
<p>Some, of course, stick with biglaw, becoming partners or remaining in a counsel/of counsel position. Others go to smaller firms and may find long term careers there. Others take government or non-profit positions. There are also in house positions that are less competitive, but in the current economy, even those positions attract large numbers of resumes. Unfortunately, right now, there are lots of former biglaw associates who are not practicing law at all or are taking contract or temp assignments.</p>
<p>Wow. I had thought that with a T14 + BigLaw credentials, you would never be unemployed down the road. There are ex-biglaw associates that end up in doc review/ temp attorney jobs?? That is downright scary.</p>
<p>My guess is that the majority of BigLaw associates can’t get decent in-house jobs with competitive pay? Do these good in-house jobs only go to top associates that are partner-material? What about the middling or ‘average’ associate?</p>
<p>It is difficult to generalize about who gets what in house job, but if you’re referring to in house jobs with compensation competitive with biglaw, then, yes, those jobs are not plentiful and competition is fierce. The typical range of experience sought is 5-8 yrs. experience. Most companies do not have the luxury of doing much training so they seek attorneys who can hit the ground running. Some large in house departments are run more like law firms so they can hire more junior level associates. The larger the group, the less opportunity for moving up through the ranks. There is only one general counsel and lots of attorneys below him/her wishing for that one spot. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, there have always been “underemployed” ex biglaw attorneys. There are more now than ever. Even in good times, some associates either weren’t given the hint or didn’t see the writing on the wall and waited too late to leave a large firm. It has always been tough for senior associates let go from large firms to walk into a comparable position elsewhere. I receive resumes of biglaw attorneys who were laid off in 2009 and have not found a permanent position.</p>
<p>Thanks for your replies. Btw, what do you mean when you mention, it is tough for a senior associate to get a job after getting let go from BigLaw? Is there an ideal timeline from which you need to have another job lined up while you are working BigLaw? I am wondering if you stick around too long in BigLaw, you are at disadvantage for getting a certain in-house job? </p>
<p>The impression I’ve been getting is that no matter your credentials, if you are laid off from a law firm and currently unemployed, it is much harder to get a new permanent job in law. </p>
<p>From your post, it sounds like the number of BigLaw associates greatly outnumbers the number of good in-house jobs that open each year. I think it would really suck to end up with a mediocre job after BigLaw… I mean, BigLaw lawyers worked hard to get there and worked brutally hard while working in BigLaw… for the hope of getting a strong long-term career in law. </p>
<p>Also, what salaries are usually offered by non-profit or government agencies to ex-biglaw attorneys?</p>
<p>Btw, do you happened to know of cases in which BigLaw corporate attorneys doing certain work such as M&A successfully transition into I-banking roles at Bulge Bracket, coming in as associates? Would you say this is doable, or just as competitive and not too realistic? I am really hoping to go into that specific career path and was wondering what your thoughts are.</p>
We only had to cancel a vacation on short notice once in his career, and I consider that to be lucky. There were several that we had to rearrange in advance because of deals cropping up but only once did we have to cancel within a few days of departure. Interestingly, that happened after he went in-house. The upper echelon of in-house lawyers work every bit as hard, and as long hours, as they do at large firms. </p>
I wish that he hadn’t had to work those long, long hours for the past 30+ years but that’s the nature of the job as well as his nature. I supported him in every way I could, and I think that it’s important to have a supportive significant other, especially if you have a family. In our experience, and this is clearly anecdotal, the combination of a good and happy home life and a successful and rewarding legal career at a large firm, has had a common ingredient and that is a stay at home significant other. My career allowed for some flexibility in that I can do what I do at home and I have done so throughout our married life. When my children were young, I was able to adjust accordingly because I wanted to be the main caregiver. It was important to us that we were not both working long hours and our children being raised by someone else. I am fully aware that not everyone feels that way but it was how we wanted our family life to be structured and it worked for us. </p>